Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[Flamingo]

Brilliant!

 

[Monty]

Here is what W. J. Gordon had to say on the subject of trains and passenger numbers in his book Our Home Railways, published in 1910. This is from volume 1 and the section on Great Eastern [pages 235-237]:

"...ever since the 21st June 1897 it [Great Eastern] has been running passenger trains in and out of Liverpool Street all though the night, its booking offices never closing; and in the early morning it has to deal with the workmen's rush to town in the overcrowded carriages we hear of. This overcrowded, however, is not so much due to the lack of facilities provided by the company as to the desire of passengers to travel by particular trains and in particular carriages - the first they reach or those that pull up nearest the exits - and so far as the last trains concerned, to the crowd who re not workmen but take advantage of coming cheaply to business though they may have to wait about the City until their office opens.

The profitable working of trains is not so simple as may seem. Any person can run a train from one place to another when the road is clear, but the difficulty is to get it back again fairly well filled. There is nothing more wasteful than an empty train or a train kept idle for hours, with so many carriages, and the engine, as it were in quarantine.

The ideal manager is he who can keep his rolling stock on the move earning money all day long. So many coaches he has to deal with, and none of these must he hang up doing nothing if he can help it. Further he must fill every seat if he can, but have no passengers standing. On an electric line it really dos not matter to him whether the coaches be overcrowded or not, for the power with which he hands them comes from the central station, and it makes no difference if the load be in one train or half a dozen; but on a line worked by steam it is to his interest to prevent overcrowding, as it increases the weight of the train and throws more work on to the engine than he has provided for, whilst the other trains than run light require a less powerful engine. The carrying capacity of trains is limited by the length of the platforms and the length of the sidings, just as the length of the wheel-base of the coaches is regulated by the length of the locking-bar; and if more than one train is necessary to carry the passengers it is ridiculous to blame the company because the passengers insist on going by the last."

That needs to be enshrined in a notice at every terminal station in London! Brilliant!

 

[cslusarc]

I never realized that some Football matches could attract over 50,000 spectators. I live in Winnipeg (Manitoba) and our local sport teams, Winnipeg Jets (NHL: Hockey) and Winnipeg Blue Bombers (CFL: Canadian Football) are lucky to attract 15,000 and 33,000 spectators respectively.

 

[455driver]

Here is what W. J. Gordon had to say on the subject of trains and passenger numbers in his book Our Home Railways, published in 1910. This is from volume 1 and the section on Great Eastern [pages 235-237]:
<snipped>

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It just goes to show that there is nothing (really) new in the world of railways.

 

[Deerfold]

I never realized that some Football matches could attract over 50,000 spectators. I live in Winnipeg (Manitoba) and our local sport teams, Winnipeg Jets (NHL: Hockey) and Winnipeg Blue Bombers (CFL: Canadian Football) are lucky to attract 15,000 and 33,000 spectators respectively.

Wembley's the 7th largest football stadium in the world by capacity, holding 90,000.

The largest, in India, holds 120,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_football_stadiums_by_capacity

Of course they're much less likely to be full if it's not the national teams (or the Cup Final) playing there.

 

[Smod]

I have been meaning to contribute to this thread – but I’m now reminded to following my journey home last night.

I travel out of Waterloo quite often in the late evening and I’m used to travelling in trains on the South West Main Line that are full and standing. This isn’t just an issue of specific sporting and other events – it’s how London operates nowadays with (I think) far more people travelling late in the evenings. And I’m aware that London isn’t unique here – but I can only really comment on London.

Yesterday I was on the 2335 Waterloo to Bournemouth. It was a 5 car 444 and there were probably 25-30 standing in the front coach – so probably a lot more in the rear coaches. And many of the later train services like this that are frequently overcrowded run routinely with shorter formations than the equivalent daytime services.

Provision of bus services in London has improved out of all recognition in London in the last 20-30 years with more frequent services and a massive growth in night buses. This is in response to how activities (both work and social) have changed in that time. But rail provision has really not changed very much in that time.

There are of course constraints – amount of rolling stock, where rolling stock needs to be the next day, engineering requirements etc. – but if addressing a problem is seen as a priority, solutions tend to be found.

I was recently in Barcelona where the Metro runs all night on Saturday. I’m sure that this gives them challenges – but this has obviously been decided as a priority for them.

My assumption is that improving late evening rail provision is not seen as a priority – either by the rail operators or by government. And until it is, nothing is likely to change.

South West Trains are probably one of the better rail operators (sorry I must stop to wash my mouth out with soap). But I have plenty of past experience of them failing to provide sufficient stock to provide an acceptable service, when stock is obviously available. As an example, I recall a day when the South West main line was shut for engineering works on a Saturday, with a limited service running on diversion via Chertsey/Staines. A 5 car 444 is really not a sensible option on such a service and resulted in what may have been a world record for the most passengers crammed onto a 444 between Woking and Waterloo (a journey time of around an hour on that route). So I would certainly allocate a share of blame to rail operators for off-peak overcrowding (while not letting government off the hook).

 

[PhilipW]

Interesting to read the above post. I was 30 minutes earlier on the 23:05 yesterday. The crowding figures seem very familiar. The train was full with some standing when we left Waterloo. Quite a lot were then picked up at Clapham Junction adding to the standing. However a lot got off at Woking and I would think nearly everyone may have had a seat then, certainly by Basingstoke. Although full and standing the numbers did match up with those on the England football day which started up the thread.

Walking to Waterloo at 22:30 there was a whole stream of people doing the same and Waterloo itself looked like a mini rush hour. An awful lot of people are out and about trying to catch a train home around that time. SWT really do have to look at the loading factors and train size on some services. I can understand them not keen to run 10 cars down to Poole when the overcrowding is only as far as Basingstoke. Perhaps one option may be an extra fast service just to Woking and Basingstoke. Whatever the solution is, there is a problem that does not look like going away.

As a footnote, as we slowed down into Clapham at 23:12 guess what was going into the Windsor line sidings with a 'Not in Service' destination. I'm sure you all guessed it right .. an empty 5-car 444.

 

[alastair]

Just to point out that not all SWT trains are overcrowded at this time, on Monday (21st) I travelled on the 2323 Waterloo/Alton it was a 12 car 3x450 and there was ample space,indeed every passenger had a bay or pair of seats to themselves!

 

[PhilipW]

Just to point out that not all SWT trains are overcrowded at this time, on Monday (21st) I travelled on the 2323 Waterloo/Alton it was a 12 car 3x450 and there was ample space,indeed every passenger had a bay or pair of seats to themselves!

Fair point. That indeed is a long train.

It's Friday and Saturday nights that are the problem days when there are lots of leisure travellers (like me) returning from a day out

 

[Eagle]

As a footnote, as we slowed down into Clapham at 23:12 guess what was going into the Windsor line sidings with a 'Not in Service' destination. I'm sure you all guessed it right .. an empty 5-car 444.

If they'd attached it to your service it would have ended up in the wrong place (Bournemouth depot) for the next day's service.

 

[AndyLandy]

If they'd attached it to your service it would have ended up in the wrong place (Bournemouth depot) for the next day's service.

Not if they split the train at Basingstoke and ran one unit ECS back to Clapham. I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but the extra capacity doesn't have to all end up in the South West.

 

[A-driver]

Not if they split the train at Basingstoke and ran one unit ECS back to Clapham. I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but the extra capacity doesn't have to all end up in the South West.

Would cost a fortune to buy an extra path from Basingstoke to clapham, get around any engineering works and an extra night drivers diagram to split and run the unit to clapham (the current empties are probably the end of an afternoon turn).

 

[Eagle]

Not if they split the train at Basingstoke and ran one unit ECS back to Clapham.

In that case they need another driver to take it back.

 

[PhilipW]

If they'd attached it to your service it would have ended up in the wrong place (Bournemouth depot) for the next day's service.

Problem : Certain services from Waterloo on a Friday and Saturday night are overcrowded.

Possible solutions :
Should we do this -- "No impossible"
Should we do that -- "No, train ends up in wrong place"
Should we do this then -- "No, costs too much"
How about this then -- "No, we will need another driver"
OK, what about this -- "No, fancy suggesting that, you know nothing abut the railways"
OK, last suggestion, what about this -- "What, you must be joking"

So I guess we have found a problem that is beyond the capabilities of the railway industry to solve.

...... and you wonder why people are cynical.

 

[Eagle]

Obviously it's not impossible, but it would have to wait until a timetable change to sort out. It's not something that can be worked out at short notice.

 

[A-driver]

Problem : Certain services from Waterloo on a Friday and Saturday night are overcrowded.

Possible solutions :
Should we do this -- "No impossible"
Should we do that -- "No, train ends up in wrong place"
Should we do this then -- "No, costs too much"
How about this then -- "No, we will need another driver"
OK, what about this -- "No, fancy suggesting that, you know nothing abut the railways"
OK, last suggestion, what about this -- "What, you must be joking"

So I guess we have found a problem that is beyond the capabilities of the railway industry to solve.

...... and you wonder why people are cynical.

Don't be so silly just because people arnt giving the answers that you want in your little perfect world.

Throw money at the issue and you can solve it. Overcrowding would be a thing if the past if enough money was spent increasing stock, staff and infrastructure. The problem is that in the real world it all comes down to money. Sorry to disappoint you but the TOCs are in it for the money, as is the government. 50 people standing on a train for 20mins is not something anyone is going to throw money at. The TOCs are in it to make profit.

If you threw enough money at it you could end rush hour overcrowding, infact with enough investment every single commuter could have a seat and no one would ever have to stand on any trains. But that is going into a fantasy world without the most basic financial constraints.

 

[PhilipW]

Obviously it's not impossible, but it would have to wait until a timetable change to sort out. It's not something that can be worked out at short notice.

I don't think anybody has ever suggested otherwise. Any suggestion as to how the problem can be resolved even in the long term seems to get immediately rubbished.

 

[A-driver]

I don't think anybody has ever suggested otherwise. Any suggestion as to how the problem can be resolved even in the long term seems to get immediately rubbished.

Because realistically increasing a train on a regular basis will cost a lot of money. It would need an overall increase in stock and staff which is expensive.

You seem to post completely forgetting that things cost money.

 

[87015]

If SWT wanted to do it, they could do easily. They clearly don't think its worth the few pennies it would cost.

You couldn't say without seeing the diagrams, but I'd bet it could be strengthened with no extra resources required by any of their planners. If as hinted their mileages are so much more restricted than anywhere else someone should be asking questions on how they got themselves into such a contract.

 

[A-driver]

If SWT wanted to do it, they could do easily. They clearly don't think its worth the few pennies it would cost.

You couldn't say without seeing the diagrams, but I'd bet it could be strengthened with no extra resources required by any of their planners. If as hinted their mileages are so much more restricted than anywhere else someone should be asking questions on how they got themselves into such a contract.

Few pennies? Can you share your source for the cost of strengthening the trains please?

 

[455driver]

If SWT wanted to do it, they could do easily. They clearly don't think its worth the few pennies it would cost.

Oh silly me, I thought it cost thousands of pounds to lease the stock for extra time (especially the way the Desiros are leased at SWT) but you obviously know more than me because apparently it only costs pennies!

I wonder how the Leasing companies make any money at those rates? :roll:

 

[D1009]

Obviously it's not impossible, but it would have to wait until a timetable change to sort out. It's not something that can be worked out at short notice.

But from what other posters have been saying, it's something that does need to be sorted out long term. It's a train that is full and standing every Friday night. A long term plan needs to be devised which could be implemented ahead of the normal timescales if the will is there, but plainly it isn't.

 

[87015]

Few pennies? Can you share your source for the cost of strengthening the trains please?

Day job at an.other LSE operator. I know how much it costs us in extra mileage fees to have say, a 150 mile trip as 8 v 4 (comparable post-privatization EMU) which is why I'm perplexed at SWT apparently having to pay a small fortune for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh silly me, I thought it cost thousands of pounds to lease the stock for extra time (especially the way the Desiros are leased at SWT) but you obviously know more than me because apparently it only costs pennies!

I wonder how the Leasing companies make any money at those rates? :roll:

How are they leased then? They (presumably, unless your are saying otherwise) aren't leased by the hour so why would using them for extra time affect the base leasing fees? Additional mileage, yes, but in the grand scheme shouldn't be bank busting - we are discussing the odd trip not say all day 10 v 5 working. I'm clearly missing a big unknown cost to SWT other operators don't have for Desiro use...?

 

[A-driver]

Day job at an.other LSE operator. I know how much it costs us in extra mileage fees to have say, a 150 mile trip as 8 v 4 (comparable post-privatization EMU) which is why I'm perplexed at SWT apparently having to pay a small fortune for it.

Right...and how do you propose you get the stock back in place for sat morning without paying extra paths and drivers etc?

 

[87015]

Right...and how do you propose you get the stock back in place for sat morning without paying extra paths and drivers etc?

Like I said, you'd need to see the diagrams and conditions to know, but I am sure SWT planners could come up with a plan that didn't need extra resources - post the PM peak thats plenty of trains, units and crews to shuffle around.

If it was done on a Friday, you'd even have all weekend to rebalance so even more options! Do they have Q weekend moves between depots and drivers diagrammed, anyone know? We do, thats always the get out if its got a bit messy!

 

[A-driver]

Like I said, you'd need to see the diagrams and conditions to know, but I am sure SWT planners could come up with a plan that didn't need extra resources - post the PM peak thats plenty of trains, units and crews to shuffle around.

If it was done on a Friday, you'd even have all weekend to rebalance so even more options! Do they have Q weekend moves between depots and drivers diagrammed, anyone know? We do, thats always the get out if its got a bit messy!

In all honestly do you really think that SWT would run short trains if they had an option? If it wouldn't cost anything then they would of course double up the stock.

And we arnt talking crew post peak hours, we are talking crews at 11-12 at night , most jobs will be finishing around then and if SWT diagrams are anything like FCCs then there are very few driver diagrams with any slack in after the rush hour. Certainly not enough slack to run empties from somewhere like Basingstoke to clapham. As for weekends, you still have early Saturday trains and again, if anything like FCC them the Saturday diagrams will be pretty full.

 

[455driver]

How are they leased then? They (presumably, unless your are saying otherwise) aren't leased by the hour so why would using them for extra time affect the base leasing fees? Additional mileage, yes, but in the grand scheme shouldn't be bank busting - we are discussing the odd trip not say all day 10 v 5 working. I'm clearly missing a big unknown cost to SWT other operators don't have for Desiro use...?

Pretty much yes, Siemens are tasked with supplying X number of units throughout the day, if they are all available when they should be then all is well and good, if they cant supply them all then Siemens pay a fine to SWT, its SWTs job to ensure the units are in the right place, all Siemens have to do is provide the units.

Why do you think 455s are used on the Hounslows and Weybridges on a Sunday?
Its because they are leased anyway (and would still cost SWT if they sit in the depot all day) and so SWT dont have to pay Siemens for the hire of Desiros to work the services while also paying for the lease on the 455s just for them to sit in the depot all day.

So as you can see, if SWT want to hire/lease a desiro to strengthen a service it will cost them more than pennies but then I am sure 87015 is fully aware of all this with his very inciteful post above.

 

[infobleep]

Pretty much yes, Siemens are tasked with supplying X number of units throughout the day, if they are all available when they should be then all is well and good, if they cant supply them all then Siemens pay a fine to SWT, its SWTs job to ensure the units are in the right place, all Siemens have to do is provide the units.

Why do you think 455s are used on the Hounslows and Weybridges on a Sunday?
Its because they are leased anyway (and would still cost SWT if they sit in the depot all day) and so SWT dont have to pay Siemens for the hire of Desiros to work the services while also paying for the lease on the 455s just for them to sit in the depot all day.

So as you can see, if SWT want to hire/lease a desiro to strengthen a service it will cost them more than pennies but then I am sure 87015 is fully aware of all this with his very inciteful post above.

With hinesight is the current way trains are leased the best use of SWT money? In other words is the leasing contract the best way to provide and run the trains?

Do people think it will last into the next franchise or will they decide it isn't flexiable enough to meet the demands of modern train services? Will other companies come along to the bidding process and agree to work under a different scheme whereby they will provide stock as and when required.

May be other companies will switch to SWT's model when their franchises come up for renewal.

 

[HSTEd]

If the ROSCOs believe they will get a worse deal they simply won't agree to any changes.

 

[infobleep]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It just goes to show that there is nothing (really) new in the world of railways.

There certainly isn't. The book has quite a few references to things still in use on the railways. Interestingly it refers to automatic signals being introduced and eventually doing away with signalers in the existing form. As it is, whilst we do have a reasonable number of modern signaling centres and automatic signals, we still a reasonable number of old fashioned signal boxes with their bells too.

I love the photos in it, of trains peaking up water was at full speed to someone high up in a station on a overhead wire device moving luggage. Not sure if current health and safety would allow such working practises.

I recommend Gordon's book to anyone interested in the workings of the railways in 1909. Very well written overview of each major company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't be so silly just because people arnt giving the answers that you want in your little perfect world.

Throw money at the issue and you can solve it. Overcrowding would be a thing if the past if enough money was spent increasing stock, staff and infrastructure. The problem is that in the real world it all comes down to money. Sorry to disappoint you but the TOCs are in it for the money, as is the government. 50 people standing on a train for 20mins is not something anyone is going to throw money at. The TOCs are in it to make profit.

If you threw enough money at it you could end rush hour overcrowding, infact with enough investment every single commuter could have a seat and no one would ever have to stand on any trains. But that is going into a fantasy world without the most basic financial constraints.

Everyone moans about trains; number of carriages and cost of season tickets etc. Perhaps train companies need to actively promote the fact the service they are currently providing is due to the fact people don't want to pay more money for a better service. It might be negative but if it's the truth, what's wrong with promoting it. May be it will encourage people to change their habits as they know nothing is going to change. After all they have lots of health and safety awareness posters, so why not some fiance awareness posters too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because realistically increasing a train on a regular basis will cost a lot of money. It would need an overall increase in stock and staff which is expensive.

You seem to post completely forgetting that things cost money.

Of course if the extra trains are run during popular periods then SWT might even make a profit on them, which surely isn't something to ignore. I mean they run a 0.50 Waterloo to Portsmouth service via Guildford on a Sunday night. For operational reasons no doubt but with passengers allowed on.

However in terms of ticketing and profits, I'm sure they would get far more paying passengers on a Thursday; Friday and/or Saturday night.