Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[PhilipW]

The extra revenue from the extra 40-50 passengers will not really be enough to justify the extra costs.

The primary aim of the rail network is getting people to and from work. If a few dozen people are having to stand on their way home from the pub, putting it bluntly, nobody really cares.

Got it.

Just as well then that the Railway industry has scrapped all those adverts of happy people sitting back, relaxing and "letting the train take the strain".

Perhaps the new slogan should be along the lines of "If you are not a commuter and are daft enough to take one of our trains off-peak, then 'you get what you get'".

40-50 people you quote. Hmm
7 carriages worth of people on a 5-car Class 444 is 150ish people. Other people on this thread have reported worse than that.

 

[Monty]

How can you be sure its 7 carriages worth? or 150ish people? Exactly how full and standing was this service?

 

[Eagle]

Anyway your logic is faulty. There wouldn't be 150 more people travelling. Simply everyone who was standing on the service would get a seat. Then there may be more people (we can't know how many) who might have been able to travel additionally, and it is those people alone who would provide extra revenue.

Even if it was 150 more tickets sold, that still wouldn't cover it.

 

[NSEFAN]

Just as well then that the Railway industry has scrapped all those adverts of happy people sitting back, relaxing and "letting the train take the strain".

Perhaps the new slogan should be along the lines of "If you are not a commuter and are daft enough to take one of our trains off-peak, then 'you get what you get'".

Those famous BR adverts were made at a time when rail usage in this country was at a record low (Source), so encouraging people to get back on the trains during off-peak was a priority. Since the early 1980s, numbers have been climbing steadily, to the point where we are now moving towards a 7-day railway.

I think we will always see trains being crammed full of people, at least while the railway is expected to reduce its costs at every opportunity. Every now and then we get a step increase in capacity when a new line is opened or new fleet of trains is built, but demand soon rises to fill the gap! I suppose that if these extra people are not using cars as result, then having jammed-packed trains is perhaps a good sign!

 

[PhilipW]

How can you be sure its 7 carriages worth? or 150ish people? Exactly how full and standing was this service?

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is being quite so pedantic about the number. Obviously I did not walk up the train with a counter, so any figure is an estimate.

I have been on the specific service in question (23:05 to Poole) on two Fridays in recent weeks and many times over a longer period of time. They are regularly full plus on leaving Waterloo and more so at Clapham. Last Friday I would estimate there were 25 standing in the front coach where I was, on the previous occasion (which started this thread), there were considerably more; it was packed. So me summarizing the figure as 150 is quite reasonable.

When I started this thread I (naively) thought that once the overcrowding got to a certain point (whatever that was) that SWT would willingly want to put more carriages on. I now understand that this is not the case. Post rush hour all Bournemouth services will be 5-carriages irrespective of the numbers travelling (and paying).

I get the story. There is no point in me advocating for longer off peak trains as it just isn't going to happen.

It has been a bit of a surprise to me to learn that TOCs are not at all interested in running trains of sufficient length to match the demand. If that's how it is in 2013, I'll just have to learn to live with it

 

[ainsworth74]

It has been a bit of a surprise to me to learn that TOCs are not at all interested in running trains of sufficient length to match the demand. If that's how it is in 2013, I'll just have to learn to live with it

I'd suggest it's more the DfT that have no interest in it, they're just as keen to ensure that as few loss making services run as possible as the TOCs are. After all it could impact the premium payments they should be receiving from the TOCs in question.

If the DfT cared they'd specifiy in the franchise agreements that these problem services should be run with more capacity. But they don't and there is a reason for that...

 

[Muzer]

Yep. It is the DfT who are now essentially responsible, ultimately. Of course, prospective franchise operators can suggest things and if the DfT think they're important they'll subsidise them for it.

 

[306024]

When I started this thread I (naively) thought that once the overcrowding got to a certain point (whatever that was) that SWT would willingly want to put more carriages on. I now understand that this is not the case. Post rush hour all Bournemouth services will be 5-carriages irrespective of the numbers travelling (and paying).

I get the story. There is no point in me advocating for longer off peak trains as it just isn't going to happen.

It has been a bit of a surprise to me to learn that TOCs are not at all interested in running trains of sufficient length to match the demand. If that's how it is in 2013, I'll just have to learn to live with it

Bet you are glad you did

Still some 278 posts later we are no closer to drawing a conclusion. Now apologies if one of those posts answers this, but have you written to SWT to ask why they consider it is not worth it / possible to strengthen this train? Send them the link to this thread if it helps. It would be good to get an official answer rather than the informed (and some mis-informed) guesses on here.

Any TOC that values it's customer satisfaction scores should be interested in running appropriate length trains. See what they say.

 

[PhilipW]

The trouble with 'problem services' is that they can change. We may all possibly agree that the 22:05 and 23:05 services have problems on Friday and Saturday nights. Next year this may extend to the 21:05 or to Thursday nights as well. I don't know, SWT don't know and the DfT certainly don't know for 7 years in advance. Surely there has to be some flexibility whereby the TOC can respond (and should respond) to passenger demand.

 

[Muzer]

It would be nice, wouldn't it? I think it should be possible for something to happen mid-contract - but unless the company running the TOC think they're going to get money for it, they're not going to do it on their own accord.

It'd be nice if there were some more formal process to identify overcrowded services in off-peak times (ie when TOCs are likely to have carriages spare) and for the DfT to financially encourage TOCs to timetable around putting on more carriages. I can see this system being workable.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is being quite so pedantic about the number. Obviously I did not walk up the train with a counter, so any figure is an estimate.
it

I do walk through with a counter. Many "full & standing" trains will only have 20-30 people standing between 8 carriages, but the bulk of them stand in one group.

 

[bb21]

Actually money does fall out of the sky for rail operators. In particular, it falls into the booking offices and ticket machines in ever-increasing amounts as more and more people buy tickets for rail travel, as the figures for revenue, and off-peak overcrowding show. What we are discussing here is the attitude that SWT and others are quite happy to take this extra money, and then not do anything to accommodate it, at times when they have resources standing idle and doing nothing.

We have consistently given the solution all along. It is to identify late-evening, Saturday, and other off-peak services which are REGULARLY and KNOWINGLY overcrowded, and extend their formation appropriately with the stock we can all see sat in sidings doing nothing at this time.

It doesn't.

How do you know that the growth is patronage is not already forecast and therefore DfT take a large chunk of it? How do you know that the extra fare collected are going into the company's profits rather than reducing their losses?

Blame the fare rises on the government who want the passengers to pay a larger share towards the cost of running the railway.

The situation is not ideal but laying the blame at SWT's feet is just plainly naive.

 

[Carlisle]

...... but (as someone else has already pointed out), they are already getting the extra revenue. Instead of getting 5 carriages full of people, they are now getting 7 carriages or so worth of people. It is just that they are keeping it all to themselves instead of spending some of it to benefit their customers.

How much overcrowding does there have to be at 23.00 at night to warrant spending extra on lengthening trains ? -- 8 carriages worth of people, 9, 10 ... I don't know the answer to that. Eventually perpetual overcrowding will put people off. Not much point going for a leisurely night out in London by train if you know you will probably be standing on the way back.

I can't really see how any member of this forum can offer a defintive ansewer to the origional question without access to the fine details of 1)SWT s crew and stock diagrams for that route 2)The type of charging tariff used by the leasing company to bill SWT

 

[Pumbaa]

If SWT wanted to do it, they could do easily. They clearly don't think its worth the few pennies it would cost.

You couldn't say without seeing the diagrams, but I'd bet it could be strengthened with no extra resources required by any of their planners. If as hinted their mileages are so much more restricted than anywhere else someone should be asking questions on how they got themselves into such a contract.

Of course they can. Easy peasy. In a nutshell, everything that comes back to London for the last departures can't drop their additional units at Southampton/Bomo/Bstoke/Portsmouth. But £££. Used to be done as a matter of course pre 2008, but getting rid of that of the current mantra is proving difficult.

There's nothing fancy about the mileage bands for maintenance, they've been changed a few times without stress. They're fairly small fry above the hourly leasing charge for the fleet.

But, and the biggest hint as to why no strengthening, mainline departures 2200 - end of service inclusive hover between the 60 - 100% load factor. There are precious few that load over 110% at Waterloo.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The OP mentioned a sporting event that meant the train was full and standing until Winchester.

However I'm guessing that on a normal service, whilst it may be full and standing upon leaving Waterloo, would probably have everyone seated by Woking.

 

[AndyLandy]

I was on this exact service about a month ago, so I know just how busy it is. It was a Saturday evening, after a football match.

I boarded it at Clapham Junction at 2312 at the very front, and it was most definitely full. I attempted to make my way down the train to see if there was any space available.

So, that's four coaches of standard class, with about half-a-dozen people in the vestibules and maybe eight-or-so people standing in the saloon. 20 people extra per carriage. Yes, the train was definitely full, but one extra carriage would have been all that was needed to give the vast majority of people a seat. Running a 10-444 would have been overkill.

Of course, once I'd made my way to the back of the train, I got a fiver out of my wallet and took a seat in 1st class.

These days, if I'm ever coming back late from London on a Saturday or Sunday, I just take the Weekend First upgrade.

 

[john-]

That said, my biggest gripe about late night SWT services isn't capacity at all (Which is OK for the most part) but more the on-board toilets...Or lack thereof! hock:
I wouldn't mind being on a train with 4 of 4 duff loos in the day when I can always alight and use the ones at an intermediate station...But in the middle of the night, on the last train of the night, and with not a single soddin' loo open anywhere on the route, the frequent lack of working toilets on-board really does - 'Scuse the pun - Take the ****! :roll:

Just my two "SWT compensation vouchers" worth, ye understand...

One time I took the last train from Waterlooville to Waterloo on a Saturday and all the toilets were bust and the guard arranged that the toilets at Woking would be available (and hold the train) for people to use them. Was a good example of what can be done (but probably often isn't).

john

 

[Carlisle]

One time I took the last train from Waterlooville to Waterloo on a Saturday and all the toilets were bust and the guard arranged that the toilets at Woking would be available (and hold the train) for people to use them. Was a good example of what can be done (but probably often isn't).

john

Blimey SWT have been investing serious money in the network if you can now catch a train from Waterlooville lol

 

[455driver]

Blimey SWT have been investing serious money in the network if you can now catch a train from Waterlooville lol

He probably meant Chavant!

 

[infobleep]

Another train where it is unlikely to make commercial sense to put extra carriages on seems to be the 23.40 to Salisbury. On be fair people were able to get on the train at Clapham Junction. On the 18.27 from Clapham to Exeter it's far more busy. I would have thought adding more carriages to that service would make commercial sense. To be fair they are adding extra carriages to some trains in the coming year or years. May be that is one of them.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[TEW]

Was just thinking of this thread. This evening was fun and games. In the run up to Christmas to the overcrowding has really ramped up in the evening. 2305 and 2315 out Waterloo both looked very bad this evening, and the 2315 left people behind at Clapham. Both only 5 carriages of course.

 

[johnnychips]

I would have thought adding more carriages to that service would make commercial sense. To be fair they are adding extra carriages to some trains in the coming year or years. May be that is one of them.

But surely if you are a privatised company, the only reason you would increase capacity would be if you felt that passengers were deterred from using your service because of overcrowding and the cost of increasing it would result in a greater revenue from more passengers.

This ignores the fact that extra rolling stock may not be available anyway, even if the TOC wanted to increase the capacity.

 

[infobleep]

Well they claim to be adding 100 carriages so there must been rolling stock somewhere. Besides perhaps adding more carriages might generate more growth or don't rail companies want such things.

The only tines rail comoanies advertise not to travel is during major disruption as far as I am aware.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[GodAtum]

and the 2315 left people behind at Clapham

So how do they get home?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well they claim to be adding 100 carriages so there must been rolling stock somewhere.

It isn't a 'claim', the incorporation of the 60 x 460 vehicles, and transfer of 48 x 456 vehicles definitely does provide over 100 carriages...

 

[PG]

So how do they get home?

Presumably amuse themselves for half an hour and see if the last train is any better?

 

[FenMan]

Was just thinking of this thread. This evening was fun and games. In the run up to Christmas to the overcrowding has really ramped up in the evening. 2305 and 2315 out Waterloo both looked very bad this evening, and the 2315 left people behind at Clapham. Both only 5 carriages of course.

I was on the 2315 on Saturday and luckily managed to snare the last available seat in the front carriage, about 10 minutes before departure from Waterloo. The 2315 is the last train of the night for me due to a connection at Guildford, so I wouldn't have been too impressed if trying to board at CLJ!

The service was rammed as far as Guildford, where the usual mass exodus took place.

 

[GodAtum]

As an aside, if its physically impossible to get your last train what happens, does the TOC have to provide transport home?

 

[ModernRailways]

As an aside, if its physically impossible to get your last train what happens, does the TOC have to provide transport home?

If it's physically impossible and you had checked the full train, then it would be best to speak to the driver (on DOO services) or the guard who would advise you on what to do. They may contact their control to then get information for you.

 

[TEW]

I was on the 2315 on Saturday and luckily managed to snare the last available seat in the front carriage, about 10 minutes before departure from Waterloo. The 2315 is the last train of the night for me due to a connection at Guildford, so I wouldn't have been too impressed if trying to board at CLJ!

The service was rammed as far as Guildford, where the usual mass exodus took place.

Yeh, I was sat in the front carriage too, I got on about 15 minutes before departure to secure my seat.