Green Line 797

[jon0844]

But Uno still drive buses around with the number on a bit of paper stuck to the windscreen, so you really need to be alert!

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[A0]

But Uno still drive buses around with the number on a bit of paper stuck to the windscreen, so you really need to be alert!

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Say what you like about UNO - they're still far better than these horrors....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5729360057

 

[Busaholic]

But Uno still drive buses around with the number on a bit of paper stuck to the windscreen, so you really need to be alert!

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Appropriately lit at night, I hope Oh, hang on, do they still operate at night?

 

[jon0844]

Appropriately lit at night, I hope Oh, hang on, do they still operate at night?

That's a good point. That means come autumn, they'll have to cut services to run no later than 4-5pm!

They seem to actively training lots of new drivers recently, which given the cuts in services that had almost eradicated overtime and slashed evening/Sunday working, makes me suspect a lot of drivers have left.

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[321001]

A driver has confirmed on a local Hatfield group that the 797 was nearly always virtually empty on runs into London, hence why it will be slowly killed off. A new service had been restored from Hitchin to Hatfield and will likely remain safe.

This is a contrast to the Green Line 758 service from Hemel which from the 8th of May will be getting a Sunday service plus earlier and later runs from and to Hemel during the week.
http://www.intalink.org.uk/download/29047.2/

 

[A0]

This is a contrast to the Green Line 758 service from Hemel which from the 8th of May will be getting a Sunday service plus earlier and later runs from and to Hemel during the week.
http://www.intalink.org.uk/download/29047.2/

Possibly so - but I don't think you can compare Stevenage & Hatfield to Hemel.

Hemel's railway station is a long way outside the town centre and indeed away from most of the main housing areas.

Add in the easy access to the M1 means a fast journey to Staples Corner and then central London is quite attractive.

Whereas in the case of Stevenage the station is pretty much in the town centre and most buses to / from the town centre are easily routed to stop nearby. Hatfield is much smaller.

And Hemel's rail service isn't as good as Stevenage's and doesn't compare particularly well with Hatfield.

E.g.

Hemel - 4 tph, 1 x 20m to Euston, 1 x 30m to Euston, 2 x 40m to Euston.

Hatfield - 4 tph, 2x 25m to KGX, 2 x 45m to Moorgate

Stevenage - 5/6 tph, fastest 25m to KGX, slowest 1hr to Moorgate.

 

[jon0844]

I agree there's not that much comparison, but Uno did itself no favours by having such a ridiculous bodge in the way it did things to get around certain rules. Splitting into two routes was silly, even if was using the same bus, as I'd argue a lot of people didn't realise - and with the reputation about buses running late/early, people would be concerned about a supposed change half way through.

Also, when it stopped going all the way to Victoria and instead dumped people at Baker Street, the writing was surely on the wall.

I think the other issue is that looking at the fares, it really wasn't that much cheaper to use the bus - and a whole lot more inconvenient, unless you wanted to go to somewhere along the way rather than all the way into London.

If Arriva couldn't make a go of it, it was pretty clear Uno wasn't going to do any better. I do wonder why they tried, and wonder if they got some funding from the local authority or considered it a publicity stunt.

 

[A0]

I agree there's not that much comparison, but Uno did itself no favours by having such a ridiculous bodge in the way it did things to get around certain rules. Splitting into two routes was silly, even if was using the same bus, as I'd argue a lot of people didn't realise - and with the reputation about buses running late/early, people would be concerned about a supposed change half way through.

Also, when it stopped going all the way to Victoria and instead dumped people at Baker Street, the writing was surely on the wall.

I think the other issue is that looking at the fares, it really wasn't that much cheaper to use the bus - and a whole lot more inconvenient, unless you wanted to go to somewhere along the way rather than all the way into London.

If Arriva couldn't make a go of it, it was pretty clear Uno wasn't going to do any better. I do wonder why they tried, and wonder if they got some funding from the local authority or considered it a publicity stunt.

Wasn't it all tied up with them handing back / being replaced on the 700 which was interworked with one of their other services? I can only assume that getting all the registrations sorted was the reason for the slightly clumsy way of doing it.

As you say, Arriva couldn't make it work - perhaps UNO saw something in it, after all they do run buses from North London - Hatfield (which 797 aside, nobody did in the 80s and 90s).

I'm not sure terminating at Baker St was that significant. Back in the 80s when United Counties ran express coaches from Beds / Northants they used to terminate at Marylebone station and not run through to Victoria. Go back even further and Birch Bros ran to Kings Cross.

 

[jon0844]

I know some people from further out used it to get to places not served by train, at least without going in and back out (with cost of doing so) or cutting over to St Albans, so for them the ultimate destination wasn't important but to make it financially viable, I'm sure it also needed to attract people who might wish to go all the way into central London. Or perhaps Uno could have looked at terminating somewhere else, such as continuing on the A1 to the city.

But unless it was loads cheaper, the train wins by miles on speed and turn up and go convenience.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Back in the 80s when United Counties ran express coaches from Beds / Northants they used to terminate at Marylebone station and not run through to Victoria. Go back even further and Birch Bros ran to Kings Cross.

Birch Bros was before my time, but I remember Whippet Coaches 4 running from St Pancras to Huntingdon.

I used that service a few times from St Pancras to Welwyn Village. It was ridiculously cheap, but there were rarely more than half a dozen people on board.

The question should perhaps be why Hemel Hempstead can sustain an all-day fast bus service to London when few other towns at a similar distance can. The awkward location of Hemel Hempstead railway station is surely part of it, but if it were solely that then station-less Dunstable would be able to sustain such a service. It did used to have one (755, iirc), but not for 20+ years and now it has only a couple of commuter coaches M-F.

Luton has an even more frequent bus service to London than Hemel does, but that's largely to do with its airport. I doubt the town itself could sustain that service if the airport wasn't there.

I then thought of Harlow. Like Hemel, its railway station is awkwardly located; like Hemel, its train services aren't especially fast. But it doesn't have an all day bus service to London. What is different?

Similarly, why do we suppose it is that Oxford sustains very frequent bus services to London but Cambridge doesn't? Given that Cambridge railway station is more than a mile from the city centre while the (far too small, admittedly) bus station is right in the city centre, it "ought" to be an obvious city for such a service. But it's Oxford that has it - even though Oxford is a rare example of a city where the bus station is awkwardly located.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know how good the train service is from Hemel, but Hatfield has an excellent service (as does Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City) and it's not hard to get a seat at Hatfield or WGC if you're willing to get a slow train.

 

[Deerfold]

Similarly, why do we suppose it is that Oxford sustains very frequent bus services to London but Cambridge doesn't? Given that Cambridge railway station is more than a mile from the city centre while the (far too small, admittedly) bus station is right in the city centre, it "ought" to be an obvious city for such a service. But it's Oxford that has it - even though Oxford is a rare example of a city where the bus station is awkwardly located.

There's a few factors at work.

Cambridge to London Victoria is at least 2 hours by coach, Oxford is 1h 40 - with stops in Central London on the way.

Oxford has only 2 fast trains an hour to London with a return at around £25. Cambridge also has 2 fast trains, but the slower trains to Liverpool Street have advance fares - it's not that hard to do a return for £12.

Oxford has a very good network of local bus services which are included in the price of a season on the coach from London and not much more for a return journey.

Cambridge bus station appears to be pretty much full, even though a lot of services do not use it, including all the NX coach services.

 

[Busaholic]

The North Kent area also continues to have very good peak hour coach links to London, especially the City and Canary Wharf, a reflection perhaps on SouthEastern rail services and prices also an historical paucity of stations compared to lines in other Home Counties locations.

 

[notadriver]

The North Kent area also continues to have very good peak hour coach links to London, especially the City and Canary Wharf, a reflection perhaps on SouthEastern rail services and prices also an historical paucity of stations compared to lines in other Home Counties locations.

Commuter coaches are driven like 'hell for leather'. I wouldn't trust my life in the hands of one of their drivers.

 

[Busaholic]

Commuter coaches are driven like 'hell for leather'. I wouldn't trust my life in the hands of one of their drivers.

I've never been on one, but enough people in the North Kent area use them, almost all season ticket holders, I believe. I wouldn't have thought there was the road space to drive more than an average 25 or 30 mph!

 

[MedwayValiant]

The North Kent area also continues to have very good peak hour coach links to London, especially the City and Canary Wharf, a reflection perhaps on SouthEastern rail services and prices also an historical paucity of stations compared to lines in other Home Counties locations.

They do indeed, but these days it is only a commuter service. When I first moved to Rochester there was an all-day service to London, but that disappeared fifteen or so years ago.

For a while, Dartford, Gravesend, and the Medway Towns also had a night bus (originally NX1, later N81). That disappeared in about 2000, at much the same time as Loughton, Potters Bar, and Watford lost their night bus services. What Waltham Cross has done special that it's the only place outside Greater London still to be allowed a night bus, I don't know.

 

[hassaanhc]

They do indeed, but these days it is only a commuter service. When I first moved to Rochester there was an all-day service to London, but that disappeared fifteen or so years ago.

For a while, Dartford, Gravesend, and the Medway Towns also had a night bus (originally NX1, later N81). That disappeared in about 2000, at much the same time as Loughton, Potters Bar, and Watford lost their night bus services. What Waltham Cross has done special that it's the only place outside Greater London still to be allowed a night bus, I don't know.

Bus station at Waltham Cross is owned by TfL, which may have some input.

 

[A0]

The question should perhaps be why Hemel Hempstead can sustain an all-day fast bus service to London when few other towns at a similar distance can. The awkward location of Hemel Hempstead railway station is surely part of it, but if it were solely that then station-less Dunstable would be able to sustain such a service. It did used to have one (755, iirc), but not for 20+ years and now it has only a couple of commuter coaches M-F.

The big difference is geography and population - Hemel is circa 100,000 whereas Dunstable is circa 35,000 (according to Wikipedia) - and whilst Dunstable itself doesn't have a station, Leagrave is on its doorstep - in fact Leagrave station is closer to most of the population areas of Dunstable than Hemel station is to most of Hemel.

I then thought of Harlow. Like Hemel, its railway station is awkwardly located; like Hemel, its train services aren't especially fast. But it doesn't have an all day bus service to London. What is different?

The only thing I can think of with Harlow is where its train services arrive in London i.e. in the city at Liverpool St. So Harlow is more attractive to people who want to work in the city than those in Hemel where the west-end is more attractive.

Similarly, why do we suppose it is that Oxford sustains very frequent bus services to London but Cambridge doesn't? Given that Cambridge railway station is more than a mile from the city centre while the (far too small, admittedly) bus station is right in the city centre, it "ought" to be an obvious city for such a service. But it's Oxford that has it - even though Oxford is a rare example of a city where the bus station is awkwardly located.

Cambridge has for many years enjoyed a better rail service to London compared to poorer road connections. Oxford's the other way around perhaps with the A40 then M40? Add in cost and the fact the coach offers stops at two or three convenient points on its way into and out of Oxford?

Additionally, a number of the towns and villages around Cambridge have retained their rail links (e.g Foxton, Shelford) which means fewer people have to travel into Cambridge to access the train when compared to Oxford?

Just a few of the possible reasons.

 

[duncombec]

Commuter coaches are driven like 'hell for leather'. I wouldn't trust my life in the hands of one of their drivers.

Sorry? Do you make that sweeping statement for all of the (at least) five companies that provide such services? I have travelled to work and back this way for 6 years and have no qualms about the drivers. Most problems come with other people who expect a 12 ton vehicle to stop on a sixpence.

I've never been on one, but enough people in the North Kent area use them, almost all season ticket holders, I believe. I wouldn't have thought there was the road space to drive more than an average 25 or 30 mph!

Nowhere near all passengers are season ticket holders in the normal sense of the word, but a good few also buy tickets in bulk (books of 10 or 40 singles), allowing a heavily discounted fare for regular travellers who perhaps don't need to travel every day.

The common thing seems to be large areas of housing with no rail connection - Most of the Medway towns bar the town centres, Vigo, New Ash Green, Isle of Grain, Sittingbourne estates, Isle of Sheppey, Kings Hill...

 

[notadriver]

Sorry? Do you make that sweeping statement for all of the (at least) five companies that provide such services? I have travelled to work and back this way for 6 years and have no qualms about the drivers. Most problems come with other people who expect a 12 ton vehicle to stop on a sixpence.

Yes I have been overtaken by these coaches while sticking to the speed limit in my own coach (I'm a fully qualified coach driver) as these change from one lane to the other in the attempt to gain as much ground as possible. Their drivers are often on shift for 15 hours a day. They aren't obviously driving all that time but multiply that by 5 days a week and tell me that's safe lol.

 

[causton]

Under Arriva's Stevenage depot on the old 797, their Luton depot on the 757, and Uno on the 797 and also the 644/615 - the buses and coaches are certainly pushed to their limits but I would not say it was unsafe! It was common when I took the 797 for the coach to be doing flat out at its' limiter all the way down the A1(M) and up to Borehamwood just to keep to time. But we trust these drivers and if it was not safe I am sure they would not do it.

 

[ChathillMan]

Birch Bros was before my time, but I remember Whippet Coaches 4 running from St Pancras to Huntingdon.

I used that service a few times from St Pancras to Welwyn Village. It was ridiculously cheap, but there were rarely more than half a dozen people on board.

The question should perhaps be why Hemel Hempstead can sustain an all-day fast bus service to London when few other towns at a similar distance can. The awkward location of Hemel Hempstead railway station is surely part of it, but if it were solely that then station-less Dunstable would be able to sustain such a service. It did used to have one (755, iirc), but not for 20+ years and now it has only a couple of commuter coaches M-F.

Luton has an even more frequent bus service to London than Hemel does, but that's largely to do with its airport. I doubt the town itself could sustain that service if the airport wasn't there.

I then thought of Harlow. Like Hemel, its railway station is awkwardly located; like Hemel, its train services aren't especially fast. But it doesn't have an all day bus service to London. What is different?

Similarly, why do we suppose it is that Oxford sustains very frequent bus services to London but Cambridge doesn't? Given that Cambridge railway station is more than a mile from the city centre while the (far too small, admittedly) bus station is right in the city centre, it "ought" to be an obvious city for such a service. But it's Oxford that has it - even though Oxford is a rare example of a city where the bus station is awkwardly located.

There's a few factors at work.

Cambridge to London Victoria is at least 2 hours by coach, Oxford is 1h 40 - with stops in Central London on the way.

Oxford has only 2 fast trains an hour to London with a return at around £25. Cambridge also has 2 fast trains, but the slower trains to Liverpool Street have advance fares - it's not that hard to do a return for £12.

Oxford has a very good network of local bus services which are included in the price of a season on the coach from London and not much more for a return journey.

Cambridge bus station appears to be pretty much full, even though a lot of services do not use it, including all the NX coach services.

I think its telling that Cambridge is a Stagecoach city and doesn't have a single Megabus to London (or anywhere)

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[jon0844]

But we trust these drivers and if it was not safe I am sure they would not do it.

My sarcasm detector is wobbling at the moment!

I've been on Uno buses topping 40mph* in a 30 quite a few times, along a road where I'd argue that 30 is optimistic given the position of parked vehicles that closes the road to just one lane in places - so you potentially need to brake very quickly if someone decides to go down the wrong side of the road.

(The road is Wellfield Road, Hatfield - and when bus drivers are going back to the depot to finish a shift, they don't hang about)

* Assuming speedos are offset by 3-4mph, in reality the speed is more likely 36-37mph but still too fast IMO.

 

[Deerfold]

I think its telling that Cambridge is a Stagecoach city and doesn't have a single Megabus to London (or anywhere)

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How is it telling?

Megabus tickets are available on the X5 to Oxford every half hour. There's good availability of journeys at £1.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes I have been overtaken by these coaches while sticking to the speed limit in my own coach (I'm a fully qualified coach driver) as these change from one lane to the other in the attempt to gain as much ground as possible. Their drivers are often on shift for 15 hours a day. They aren't obviously driving all that time but multiply that by 5 days a week and tell me that's safe lol.

Many of the North Kent commuter coaches park up all day in or near central London, with the drivers only actually working the peak hours. Some drivers, particularly perhaps the ones employed by the largest operator, do though have to engage in inter-peak work of a coaching nature.

 

[Hadders]

What Waltham Cross has done special that it's the only place outside Greater London still to be allowed a night bus, I don't know.

Operational convenience, I suspect. Waltham Cross Bus Station is less than half a mile from the Greater London boundary. Turning the service round (N279 iirc) anywhere else on the Hertford Road would be problematic.

 

[Busaholic]

Operational convenience, I suspect. Waltham Cross Bus Station is less than half a mile from the Greater London boundary. Turning the service round (N279 iirc) anywhere else on the Hertford Road would be problematic.

The night tube will be reaching into Essex, and I believe some night buses from Loughton are planned to coincide, not that these latter will be controlled by TfL of course.

 

[MedwayValiant]

The night tube will be reaching into Essex, and I believe some night buses from Loughton are planned to coincide, not that these latter will be controlled by TfL of course.

What's the plan here? An ECC contract night bus from Loughton to Harlow via Epping?

I'd be willing to believe that there would be a market for that - although an operator would want a lot of money to run it, and you'd imagine that the fares would have to be fairly high. But if ECC were keen to provide a service along those lines, wouldn't they already be doing it, running from Waltham Cross?

 

[causton]

My sarcasm detector is wobbling at the moment!

I meant more the Arriva drivers than the Uno ones - but going down the hill and back up on Wellfield Road is about as much fun as you can get in a bloody Solo!

 

[Busaholic]

What's the plan here? An ECC contract night bus from Loughton to Harlow via Epping?

I'd be willing to believe that there would be a market for that - although an operator would want a lot of money to run it, and you'd imagine that the fares would have to be fairly high. But if ECC were keen to provide a service along those lines, wouldn't they already be doing it, running from Waltham Cross?

I read of this plan some months ago, when the Night Tube was supposed to start and can't remember where I saw the details, but I'm pretty sure it was a commercial operation planned. Since then the operators in the area have changed (again!) so I'm not sure the proposed operator is still going!