Greater Manchester potential projects (Rail & Road)

[Invincibles]

Metrolink ticket inspectors do not sell tickets they only hand out penalty fares to people who didn't buy tickets before they boarded. The ticket sellers at Altrincham booking office are Northern Rail and I'm sure Northern Rail wouldn't mind getting some extra commission, as long as they weren't seen as encouraging people to act in the wrong.

Indeed, it does look like they could sell tickets to people as they leave the platform that the Altrincham terminator has arrived on, that is not really encouraging wrong doing imo.

It makes for some problems, but I do think the idea offers a simple chance to increase options for the line and does not impact severely on the main problems around Manchester.

Trying to find a unit to run it...

 

[Nym]

i'm not sayingabout divertimg funds to convert it back and re open central, but any further growth on the clc or mid cheshire will need somthing doing. Why not do this conversion and do it properly. Rather than a half baked job.

I'd rather see Leigh back on the map first, but any more met expansion through cornbrook, clc services or mid cheshire line will need this doing

 

[tbtc]

The Hazel Grove - Preston path seems a natural one to steal

However this is one of the services which would be moving to EMU operation in a few years (assuming current service levels maintained when the lines are electrified etc etc), so diverting it via Denton would waste part of the DMU "saving" (since it'd remain DMU operated)

 

[northwichcat]

However this is one of the services which would be moving to EMU operation in a few years (assuming current service levels maintained when the lines are electrified etc etc), so diverting it via Denton would waste part of the DMU "saving" (since it'd remain DMU operated)

Well if you're not happy with that idea it could be Alderley Edge-Preston instead. However, with the Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly offering good connections with the Manchester Airport-Blackpool service northbound at Manchester Airport and the Southport-Airport southbound there would probably be less demand for a through service to Preston.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there is money can be spent (hah!) to improve links in that area it would be better to spend it creating (reinstating?) an Altrincham-Partington-Cadishead-Manchester semi-fast route.
That would take pressure off Stockport and create additional capacity and useful diversion routes.

One of the reasons why this would be a costly project would be the same that led to the decision to abandon the section leading to Partington from the Irlam area, namely the condition of the railway infrastructure and the heavy corrosion on the metal bed works on the bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal. This was the line used by the Warrington and Stockport Railway.

Your service as stated above shows an Altrincham to Partington section. I have searched some old railway records and have not been able to trace any chord leaving the Navigation Road area linking to the former station area that was once West Timperley station and there are some substantial large detached houses and a tennis club that would have to be demolished.

 

[Samtron2000]

And I havn't seen any exibitions in the main hall at Manchester Central in a long time.

WTF!!! The fact that you have written this on the very day that Manchester Central is all over the news frightens me!! It is one of the most used conference and exhibition spaces in the country.

You ramble on about increasing services to 6tph from Chester via mid Cheshire! Why? Asside from the morning/evening peaks, the trains run half empty. There is many a time I've caught the train at navi rd to stockport and found I'm the only person in the carriage!!

One last thing, would you like some beans with your waffle!

 

[northwichcat]

Asside from the morning/evening peaks, the trains run half empty. There is many a time I've caught the train at navi rd to stockport and found I'm the only person in the carriage!!

As someone who uses the train on the line your statement is inaccurate. There's a few trains that run half empty such as the 12:17 Manchester to Chester but there are a lot of off-peak trains that run at least 75% full. In school holidays there's off-peak trains leaving Knutsford and Altrincham with around 50 standing.

I like to know which trains you catch that are so empty. I'm guessing it's the peak time extras between Chester and Stockport that still run at the same time on bank holidays.

If you want half-empty off-peak then look at the Buxton-Manchester, Alderley Edge-Manchester and Oxford Road-Liverpool services in school term time.

 

[Nym]

Oh, I must add that the Manchester Exibition Centre is NOT the main hall at G-MEX / Manchester Central, the latter I havn't seen used in some time, as it always used to be mainly graduate recruitment, that is now at the Armatage Centre.

And I'd love to see any seating spare on any service that I'd be increasing the capacity of, and I wasn't saying 6tph on the Mid Cheshire, 2tph on the Mid Cheshire, 1 or 2tph via the Mid Cheshire to Crewe and 1 or 2tph via Lymm to Warrington.

If you're going to try and say I'm talking nonsense:

1) Get your facts right!
2) Read what I've written

 

[Samtron2000]

Oh, I must add that the Manchester Exibition Centre is NOT the main hall at G-MEX / Manchester Central, the latter I havn't seen used in some time, as it always used to be mainly graduate recruitment, that is now at the Armatage Centre.

And I'd love to see any seating spare on any service that I'd be increasing the capacity of, and I wasn't saying 6tph on the Mid Cheshire, 2tph on the Mid Cheshire, 1 or 2tph via the Mid Cheshire to Crewe and 1 or 2tph via Lymm to Warrington.

If you're going to try and say I'm talking nonsense:

1) Get your facts right!
2) Read what I've written

http://www.manchestercentral.co.uk/forthcoming-events - not used much is it. Also, how do you propose running trains from lymm when the track bed from dairyhouse lane, broadheath to deansgate junction, timperley no longer exists!

 

[Nym]

i refer you to my above points. If you want to put forward a good argument, please do so, otherwise, well, don't...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.manchestercentral.co.uk/forthcoming-events - not used much is it. Also, how do you propose running trains from lymm when the track bed from dairyhouse lane, broadheath to deansgate junction, timperley no longer exists!

I was on the last "special" called The Warcop Wanderer that went along that line in 1983. The bridge over Manchester Road in Broadheath was removed sometime in the 1990's and the raised embankment that ran parallel to Atlantic Street was removed. The area nearest to Manchester Road was turned into a sizeable retail park. There has been considerable office block and industrial unit construction all the way down the former track-bed to where Seamons Road and Dairyhouse Lane meet. There was a small signal box in that area. From that point onward, it was open farmland.

 

[Samtron2000]

I was on the last "special" called The Warcop Wanderer that went along that line in 1983. The bridge over Manchester Road in Broadheath was removed sometime in the 1990's and the raised embankment that ran parallel to Atlantic Street was removed. The area nearest to Manchester Road was turned into a sizeable retail park. There has been considerable office block and industrial unit construction all the way down the former track-bed to where Seamons Road and Dairyhouse Lane meet. There was a small signal box in that area. From that point onward, it was open farmland.

Exactly. The bridge over the Bridgewater canal has gone and there is a huge complex of flats on deansgate lane where he line approached the msj&ar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

i refer you to my above points. If you want to put forward a good argument, please do so, otherwise, well, don't...

I'm sorry, I was questioning a few of your many ludicrous ramblings. You suggest turning the old central back into a station on the basis that it isn't used. The link I provided clearly shows you are wrong!

I seriously wonder if you actually live in Manchester!!!

 

[Nym]

Thankfully I don't live in Manchester no, but I do know what services need what around the Manchester area, not that it has anything to do with the justification for the project.

 

[Samtron2000]

Looking at google maps for disused trackbeds and having wet dreams about reusing them is hardly knowing what services are needed!!

 

[stockport1]

Looking at google maps for disused trackbeds and having wet dreams about reusing them is hardly knowing what services are needed!!

your nuts.

the current manchetser lines are very busy. central stn,the viaduct and the altrincham are virtually priceless as a rail route from the south into central mcr.

by using it for only trams is stupid. the commuter route into manchester along the a556/m56/m62 corridor by road is ridiculous all the while we have a parallel rail route that is treated as a third class transport utility.

if the mid cheshire was upgraded and central restored passengers would use it of that i have absolutely no doubt whatsoever....would you care to argue that point?

trams used on such facilities (5 track viaducts,4 track- which alot of the line to alty was etc) are a ****ing joke. they are modern pacers. dont start to praise them because they can accelerate reasonably...they are crap.


manchester and cheshire need some long term thinking. and the mid cheshire are key imho.

upgrading existing lines brings diminishing returns for pound spent.

reopen central,electrify and 4 track as much as economically viable.

run london trains from crewe via a double track middlewichline
via northwich and knutsford (alternating stops) to central.
northwich and knutsford could provide passenger numbers
similar to wilmsow for london.

chester and wales service improved massively.
trains from the north via connection at hartford.

id be looking at making the line pay.
not just running the odd extra diesel to chester.

i await a vicious attack.
regards

 

[tbtc]

run london trains from crewe via a double track middlewichline via northwich and knutsford

I've seen several plans to improve the Knutsford line on here over the months, but never a London link before...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Run London trains from Crewe via a double track Middlewich line via Northwich and Knutsford (alternating stops) to central Northwich and Knutsford could provide passenger numbers

I must say that I do admire your attempt to bring the station at Middlewich back into being, as Dave Roberts has argued the case for this on the forum within the last two months, but to introduce a London service from Crewe via Middlewich is taking matters a little too far.

The route for a Crewe to London service as you describe, would see the train proceeding in a northerly (not southerly) direction to start its journey. I note the Middlewich - Northwich - Knutsford route as continuation, but much as I admire both Northwich and Knutsford as very pleasant towns, I cannot see a route that could include either of them. I can see that by the use of the west facing junction at Northwich West junction, you would then carry on towards Chester and Wrexham, then proceeding to London via the route taken by the recently demised Wrexham and Shropshire railway company.

Surely it would be a more cost-effective route to run this service from Crewe straight to Chester, then continuing from there. Still, your proposal is mind-stretching, if nothing else.

 

[northwichcat]

I've seen several plans to improve the Knutsford line on here over the months, but never a London link before...

Both Grand Central and Alliance Rail briefly looked at the possibly at using the Mid Cheshire line but decided against it because it would make total journey timings less competitive for end to end compared to franchised options.

Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham and Hale do have markets for London services. However, giving these stations a direct London service would reduce the number of people driving to Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Hartford and Crewe stations - which is good for cutting back the amount of traffic on the road but won't necessarily significantly increase the number of people travelling to London from Cheshire by train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham and Hale do have markets for London services. However, giving these stations a direct London service would reduce the number of people driving to Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Hartford and Crewe stations - which is good for cutting back the amount of traffic on the road but won't necessarily significantly increase the number of people travelling to London from Cheshire by train.

Whilst there are Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport direct train services to London that are both seen and known as main hub stations, the status quo will continue to exist.

You have cited Northwich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham stations on the mid-Cheshire line which currently have a feeder link to these London trains.

The same could be said for Bolton and Buxton stations which also have a feeder link to London trains at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[strange6]

The same could be said for Bolton and Buxton stations which also have a feeder link to London trains at Manchester Piccadilly.

I'm surprise more terminating services don't run to Wigan NW instead of Wigan Wallgate from manchester and Bolton. The train would pull up into Platform 2 so anybody with heavy bags would need only to step off the train and, hey presto, jump straight on to a London bound service. Very convenient

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm surprise more terminating services don't run to Wigan NW instead of Wigan Wallgate from manchester and Bolton. The train would pull up into Platform 2 so anybody with heavy bags would need only to step off the train and, hey presto, jump straight on to a London bound service. Very convenient

You raise a good point here. Why has there been a definate lack of services that connect Manchester stations with Wigan North Western station where Liverpool trains do make connections, unless it is the view that Preston must be the main WCML connection point for Manchester traffic, which will be accentuated by the Lancashire Triangle electrification plans.

Can someone cite any historical precedent for this to be so?

 

[Nym]

They used to run into Wigan NW IIRC, but SELNEC or GMPTE changed it to Wallgate so there was one station for Manchester services, of course this will change when services start via the Chat Moss.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst there are Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport direct train services to London that are both seen and known as main hub stations, the status quo will continue to exist.

You have cited Northwich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham stations on the mid-Cheshire line which currently have a feeder link to these London trains.

The same could be said for Bolton and Buxton stations which also have a feeder link to London trains at Manchester Piccadilly.

I didn't mention Stockport or Manchester Piccadilly. I said Macclesfield, Hartford, Wilmslow and Crewe could be affected as many business people drive to these stations to catch the London train opposed to catching a connecting service from a more local station.

From Northwich it's quicker to do Northwich-Chester-London. On northbound services, even if you were doing London-Mobberley, it would be quicker to catch the London-Crewe-Manchester service to Crewe, the ATW shuttle to Chester and the Northern service to Mobberley, opposed to going via Stockport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I didn't mention Stockport or Manchester Piccadilly. I said Macclesfield, Hartford, Wilmslow and Crewe could be affected as many business people drive to these stations to catch the London train opposed to catching a connecting service from a more local station.

Put my misunderstanding down to the heatwave. :roll:

The business class passenger does commute to these stations, as you say, but the parking situation at Wilmslow is significantly worse that that at Macclesfield, owing to the parking crackdown by the authorities who were finding the existing car parking in Wilmslow being overwhelmed by the recent influx of financial and commercial companies. There is no long term parking at Wilmslow station itself, but they do have a short-stay zone where incoming passengers can be collected.

 

[Invincibles]

Just had a thought about Victoria.

Would it make sense to have some sidings just out to the East so that trains simply pull into the platform and let everyone off then proceed to the sidings. When it is time to form a new train they can then do that by running in to one of the westbound platforms?

It would have the same effect as pushing every train through (which would actually be my preferred solution)

 

[cle]

I didn't mention Stockport or Manchester Piccadilly. I said Macclesfield, Hartford, Wilmslow and Crewe could be affected as many business people drive to these stations to catch the London train opposed to catching a connecting service from a more local station.

From Northwich it's quicker to do Northwich-Chester-London. On northbound services, even if you were doing London-Mobberley, it would be quicker to catch the London-Crewe-Manchester service to Crewe, the ATW shuttle to Chester and the Northern service to Mobberley, opposed to going via Stockport.

I don't think Hartford has a direct London service any more, like Congleton also. I think Virgin/DfT could have the odd peak call at each, even if just one train arriving in London by 9/9:30 and one returning around 5pm.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think Hartford has a direct London service any more, like Congleton also. I think Virgin/DfT could have the odd peak call at each, even if just one train arriving in London by 9/9:30 and one returning around 5pm.

Hartford doesn't but as it has Crewe services which connect in to London trains so it's used as a park and ride station. You'll do Hartford-London a lot quicker than Northwich-London, Cuddington-London etc.

 

[Nym]

Just had a thought about Victoria.

Would it make sense to have some sidings just out to the East so that trains simply pull into the platform and let everyone off then proceed to the sidings. When it is time to form a new train they can then do that by running in to one of the westbound platforms?

It would have the same effect as pushing every train through (which would actually be my preferred solution)

Yeah, I'd like to see this at Victoria and Piccadilly (after 13/14/15/16)

Would be best though if the sidings sat between the running lines, then you can turn the service round without disrupting anything, and I'd bet this would work out a lot cheaper than building platforms anywhere. I'm sure each pair of Platforms can take 10tphpd at Victoria.

Essensially, 8 track the western approaches as sidings? 2 per set of lines?

 

[Invincibles]

Yeah, I'd like to see this at Victoria and Piccadilly (after 13/14/15/16)

Would be best though if the sidings sat between the running lines, then you can turn the service round without disrupting anything, and I'd bet this would work out a lot cheaper than building platforms anywhere. I'm sure each pair of Platforms can take 10tphpd at Victoria.

Essensially, 8 track the western approaches as sidings? 2 per set of lines?

East and West has plenty of space, I was really thinking on the east side though because of the number of trains coming in from Liverpool / Chat Moss.

Just seemed a way to get some more capacity without having to do any major work. Just align the through tracks to the edges of the formation and add one or two sidings in the middle.

 

[Nym]

Quick, tell TfGM so they can sell off the space for development before this idea comes through