Greater Manchester Evening Return Sales Restrictions

[Arriva 175]

1) I hate G4S
2) In my experience, every second spent with an ATW conductor is additional time in which they can lie and refuse to sell available tickets...

Which available tickets are you unable to purchase? Im sure lying is not what we are paid to do. Perhaps if you are travelling from a manned station you should already have this ticket.

Edit by bb21: Split from this thread.

 

[gooses]

Which available tickets are you unable to purchase? Im sure lying is not what we are paid to do. Perhaps if you are travelling from a manned station you should already have this ticket.

Yeah - unfortunately come against that kind of attitude from both G4S and ATW quite frequently. In many cases I've been denied the opportunity to purchase the correct fare with applicable railcard discounts by ATW conductors despite that being my first opportunity to buy a ticket as I started from an unmanned station with no machines. More frustratingly, several conductors have told me when I've been in possession of a cheap evening return that my ticket is not valid on ATW services (but that they'll let me off this once) - untrue. In other instances they've refused to sell the fare at all, with one conductor claiming they had never heard of it.

 

[Arriva 175]

If you have boarded at an unmanned station with no other opportunity then you are entitled to the railcard discount unless its during the morning when a minimum fare applies (July and August are exempt).

Are we talking Manchester to Newton le Willows/Earlestown evening returns? These are valid on Northern and Arriva and can be purchased between 18.30 and 21.00 only.

Not sure which evening returns are available on the Cardiff bound services but if our trains call at the stations i cant see why they wouldnt be valid.

 

[table38]

Are we talking Manchester to Newton le Willows/Earlestown evening returns? These are valid on Northern and Arriva and can be purchased between 18.30 and 21.00 only.

I don't think that's quite correct (as I have pointed out to TPX and G4S staff on numerous occasions )

The restriction on this ticket is:

Outward journey must be made between 18.30 and 21.00. Return journey must start before 02.30 following morning. No Railcard discount available.

Hence arriving at Piccadilly at 21:05 but having started my journey at 20:46, it's the correct ticket (assuming I didn't have the opportunity to buy one before). I even used to keep an old ticket in my wallet with an issued time of 21:07 to counter the argument that "we can't sell these after 9pm".

Now even more curiously, at Stalybridge these tickets were also allowed on the "first service timed to depart after 21:00", such a little know fact that I took a picture of the restrictions from the TVM just in case I should ever need to, er, "discuss" it with any G4S staff in the future

(I say "were allowed" because I haven't checked recently. The fact that the screen says "GMEX" instead of "whatever-GMEX-is-called-now" suggests this was a while ago)

 

[Arriva 175]

I don't think that's quite correct (as I have pointed out to TPX and G4S staff on numerous occasions )

I meant 18.30 to 21.00 with regards to the time you are allowed to purchase these tickets. Nothing is stopping you using a service after 21.00 with the ticket. You just cant purchase it after this time.

All the information for evening returns is on the Northern Rail website. Ive checked numerous times as Ive had arguments with passengers (including University proffessors) because I refuse to sell these tickets on the 21.50, 22.12 and 23.14 ATW Chester bound services which of course is not possible.

You can still use the rtn portion on these services if you already have it.

 

[table38]

I meant 18.30 to 21.00 with regards to the time you are allowed to purchase these tickets.

But you still appear to be implying that you can only purchase these tickets between 18:30 and 21:00 which isn't correct.

What worries me is the more people keep repeating this incorrect statement, the more people start to believe it and the more arguments I get into with G4S and on-train staff because they believe its true because they heard someone else say it

 

[Arriva 175]

Outward journey must be made between 18.30 and 21.00. Return journey must start before 02.30 following morning. No Railcard discount available.

Ive just copied the above from your own comment. I dont say this because somebody else told me, its because I have read the retail brief from Northern Rail explaining its validity. You can only purchase the tickets between 18.30 and 21.00 and that is a fact. What the Stalybridge screen is saying is that you are permitted to use the first service after 21.00 but you must have the ticket first.

If not then how can you possibly make the outward journey between 18.30 and 21.00 if you buy the ticket at 21.30 for example?

 

[AlterEgo]

I meant 18.30 to 21.00 with regards to the time you are allowed to purchase these tickets. Nothing is stopping you using a service after 21.00 with the ticket. You just cant purchase it after this time.

But this is surely wrong - why can't I buy the ticket at 21:05 if the 20:58 service is delayed by twenty minutes?

Granted, the TVMs won't sell it, because lots of customers will become confused and buy a ticket which was invalid from the outset, but a human being should be able to!

This could result in a customer being overcharged.

 

[John @ home]

how can you possibly make the outward journey between 18.30 and 21.00 if you buy the ticket at 21.30 for example?

By joining the train between 18.30 and 21.00 at an unstaffed station and having the first opportunity to purchase the ticket at 2130.

 

[AlterEgo]

By joining the train between 18.30 and 21.00 at an unstaffed station and having the first opportunity to purchase the ticket at 2130.

That's another good example. This must happen to a fair few punters.

 

[Arriva 175]

By joining the train between 18.30 and 21.00 at an unstaffed station and having the first opportunity to purchase the ticket at 2130.

I know some trains can be slow but to take from 18.30 to 21.30 to get from Stalybridge/Earlestown into Manchester would be taking the biscuit.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know some trains can be slow but to take from 18.30 to 21.30 to get from Stalybridge/Earlestown into Manchester would be taking the biscuit.

No, but what about if they got on the 20:45 from ERL? Then they'd get in to Piccadilly well after 21:30....and go to buy their ticket there.

 

[table38]

If not then how can you possibly make the outward journey between 18.30 and 21.00 if you buy the ticket at 21.30 for example?

Because of the example I put in my original post?

Hence arriving at Piccadilly at 21:05 but having started my journey at 20:46, it's the correct ticket (assuming I didn't have the opportunity to buy one before).

What if instead of leaving Piccadilly at 21:05, I stayed on Platform 14 and got the 21:20 to Bolton arriving at 21:45 ?

My journey started at 20:46, and if Bolton was the first opportunity I had to buy a ticket, a Cheap Evening Return would still be the correct ticket.

 

[Arriva 175]

No, but what about if they got on the 20:45 from ERL? Then they'd get in to Piccadilly well after 21:30....and go to buy their ticket there.

Then you are correct because you started your journey before 21.00 and 21.30 is the first time you have been able to buy the ticket. But you cant leave Earlestown at 21.30 with no ticket and expect to buy the evening return because you didnt start the journey before 21.00, the only exception being the delay of the 20.30 or the 20.45 until after 21.00 :roll:

What if instead of leaving Piccadilly at 21:05, I stayed on Platform 14 and got the 21:20 to Bolton arriving at 21:45 ?

My journey started at 20:46, and if Bolton was the first opportunity I had to buy a ticket, a Cheap Evening Return would still be the correct ticket.

As far as im aware an Evening Return is only valid to Manchester. So if you travel to Bolton from Earlestown an evening return is not valid. You must have either a Earlestown to Manchester evening or a Manchester to Bolton evening return.

I strongly suggest you read the Northern Rail website which explains the evening return or you will continue to have arguments with TPX and G4S staff until the end of eternity.

 

[AlterEgo]

Then you are correct because you started your journey before 21.00 and 21.30 is the first time you have been able to buy the ticket. But you cant leave Earlestown at 21.30 with no ticket and expect to buy the evening return because you didnt start the journey before 21.00. :roll:

So you agree; I should be sold the ticket after 21:00!

 

[table38]

So you just said:

You can only purchase the tickets between 18.30 and 21.00 and that is a fact.

and now you say:

Then you are correct because you started your journey before 21.00 and 21.30 is the first time you have been able to buy the ticket.

So now you are saying you can purchase one after 21:00?

Which was my original point aboout the restriction :roll:

 

[Arriva 175]

So you just said:



and now you say:



So now you are saying you can purchase one after 21:00?

Which was my original point aboout the restriction :roll:

Yes cos you started your journey before 21.00!!!! Im trying to tell you that you cant start your journey after 21.00 unless the train which was supposed to arrive before 21.00 is delayed!!!

 

[table38]

Yes cos you started your journey before 21.00!!!! Im trying to tell you that you cant start your journey after 21.00 unless the train which was supposed to arrive before 21.00 is delayed!!!

So why did you say:

I meant 18.30 to 21.00 with regards to the time you are allowed to purchase these tickets.

and

You can only purchase the tickets between 18.30 and 21.00 and that is a fact.

neither of which is true?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as im aware an Evening Return is only valid to Manchester. So if you travel to Bolton from Earlestown an evening return is not valid. You must have either a Earlestown to Manchester evening or a Manchester to Bolton evening return.

I strongly suggest you read the Northern Rail website which explains the evening return or you will continue to have arguments with TPX and G4S staff until the end of eternity.

Also incorrect. The ticket is valid as follows:

Half price Adult Off Peak Return tickets between any 2 stations within Greater Manchester and any 2 stations up to and including Manchester stations within the following boundary:

Macclesfield, Chelford, Plumley, Birchwood, Earlestown, Bryn, Southport, Chorley, Bromley Cross, Rochdale, Greenfield, Hadfield, Chinley and Buxton. (Not available to or from Manchester United Football Ground Halt).

See http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr98d0b70a040002009df2181e745c3e/details.html

 

[Arriva 175]

I think you are totally missing my point completely.

1) you arrive at Earlestown at 20.59 and the next train is 21.30. No you cannot buy this ticket because you have missed the services which depart before 21.00.

2) you arrive at Earlestown at 20.44 and the 20.45 Manchester is delayed until 21.10. Yes you can buy this ticket because the train is delayed and its not your fault.

3) you arrive at Earlestown at 20.44. Board the 20.45 and the conductor does not appear. You arrive into Manchester at 21.30. Yes you can buy this ticket because the conductor stayed in the cab and its not your fault.

Please check the Northern Rail website as ive told you twice already.

 

[table38]

Please check the Northern Rail website as ive told you twice already.

OK lets see: http://www.northernrail.org/offers/Cheap+Evening+Return+(Greater+Manchester+area) says

Cheap Evening Return tickets are half the price of the Adult Off-Peak Day Return ticket and are available as follows:

•between any two stations in the blue area (change of trains is allowed)
•between any two stations in the white area or any station in the white area to any station in the blue area or vice versa (no change of trains allowed and your journey does not go beyond Manchester)
Outward travel:
Any train timed to depart between 18.30 and 21.00
Return travel:
Any train the same evening.

No railcard or child discounts permitted.

So nothing about not being able to purchase them after 21:00, and nothing about using them into Manchester only.

Which seems to agree with me then.

 

[Arriva 175]

Yes you can purchase after 21.00 but only if the train scheduled to depart before 21.00 is delayed or the conductor doesnt sell tickets.

If the train is not scheduled to depart before 21.00 and is not delayed then no you cant buy this ticket on the train. Been trying to tell you that for the last hour.

 

[table38]

All I'm asking is that you please stop misquoting the restriction by saying you can't purchase it after 21:00 because that isn't the case.

 

[Arriva 175]

I really think you should read all my posts properly and stop highlighting the bits you dont like.

It clearly says the following on the website Any train timed to depart between 18.30 and 21.00 and the outward times is when you can buy the ticket.

Exceptions are if those trains are late or you have no opportunity to buy the ticket as ive told you about a million times.

Im trying to help you if you have arguments with G4S on arrival into Manchester/Bolton so that you can tell them you attempted to leave Stalybridge before 21.00 and have been unable to buy the outward portion.

 

[Tracky]

Ive been reading this thread for a little while.

Here in plain English is how I see it...

Cheap Evening Return tickets are half the price of the Adult Off-Peak Day Return ticket and are available as follows:

* between any two stations in the blue area (change of trains is allowed)
* between any two stations in the white area or any station in the white area to any station in the blue area or vice versa (no change of trains allowed and your journey does not go beyond Manchester)

Outward travel:
Any train timed to depart between 18.30 and 21.00

Return travel:
Any train the same evening.

No railcard or child discounts permitted.

In Summary, these promotional tickets may be purchased at any time and from any station for travel between designated stations on trains departing between 18.30 and 21.00.

If you board a train at a manned station without a valid ticket the conductor should sell you a full standard single or return fare with no discount. (I assume the other poster works for Arriva and so all his stations will be manned). If you get off the train in Manchester having joined at a manned station without a ticket then you should be treated in just the same way. If you are starting your journey in Manchester then go to the office and not the G4S staff as they are only there to check tickets.


Edit/Additional Comment: Now any chance of getting back on topic...

 

[table38]

If you are starting your journey in Manchester then go to the office and not the G4S staff as they are only there to check tickets.

If only

Sadly G4S do sell tickets. They have someone with an Advantix on the overbridge at Piccadlly (and often at the end of Platforms 2 and 3).

 

[Tracky]

Just cos they sell em doesnt mean you have to buy from them if you are entering the station. Are you saying you choose poorly trained staff over fully trained ticket office staff?

 

[table38]

I really think you should read all my posts properly and stop highlighting the bits you dont like.

It clearly says the following on the website Any train timed to depart between 18.30 and 21.00 and the outward times is when you can buy the ticket.

Still incorrect. Read the restriction! It doesn't say anything about the times you can buy a ticket.

All I'm asking is that you please stop misquoting the restrictions.

 

[Tracky]

Still incorrect. Read the restriction! It doesn't say anything about the times you can buy a ticket.

All I'm asking is that you please stop misquoting the restrictions.

I think what he means is he as a conductor could only sell the ticket within those times because you would already be on the train if you bought it from him...

 

[Arriva 175]

I think what he means is he as a conductor could only sell the ticket within those times because you would already be on the train if you bought it from him...

Exactly. I cant sell them if the my station departure time is after 21.00 because that is the end of the 18.30 till 21.00 outward restriction. Therefore my 20.30 from Earlestown is the last train i can sell the evening return. (Unless of course this train is delayed).

Plus all ATW served stations within the restriction are manned stations and people should already have it before they board anyway.

This is the same for Northern, TransPennine and Virgin. If the booked departure is after 21.00 then the conductor cant sell the evening return.

 

[table38]

This is the same for Northern, TransPennine and Virgin. If the booked departure is after 21.00 then the conductor cant sell the evening return.

Still incorrect.

What if my previous train is delayed?

What if I got the 20:46 from Stalybridge to go to Wilmslow planning to get the 21:36 ATW service at Piccadilly. If the TVM at Stalybridge is broken or not taking change (not unusual!) and I don't have time to buy a ticket at Piccadilly because we came in late (not unusual, the train has come from Scarborough and often gets stuck behind the Huddersfield stopper!), the correct ticket to buy on the ATW train is still a Cheap Evening Return.

Sorry, I appreciate you probably feel I've being over-pedantic, but I frequently encounter staff who tell me "they can't sell me a Cheap Evening Return after 9pm" and that simply isn't true.

All I am asking is that you please stop misquoting the restrictions.