Deliberate hiding of a valid ticket to test rail staff

[table38]

Why do some people feel the need to carry such vast amounts of spent tickets around with them?

I usually carry a few.

It's useful evidence when you are told "we can't sell that ticket on the train" or "we can't sell you that ticket after 9pm" etc.

Also I may have a few that I need to remember to claim on expenses.

 

[Ticket Man]

I usually carry a few.

It's useful evidence when you are told "we can't sell that ticket on the train" or "we can't sell you that ticket after 9pm" etc.

Also I may have a few that I need to remember to claim on expenses.

A small amount is fair play, but I'm guessing you don't carry you last years worth of train journeys around in your wallet/purse (your preference )

 

[Stigy]

I think it's been well covered to be honest, but just to verify what Old Timer has said, it would only be an offence under S.5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 if the passenger presented an invalid ticket in an attempt to avoid full or part payment of a fare owed. If a passenger shows an invalid ticket, but also has a perfectly valid one, there's obviously no intent to avoid payment. Although you could be reported for failing to show a valid ticket on demand (Railway Byelaw 17.2/18.2), if the passenger stuck to their guns and for some reason refused to show the RPI his/her ticket (that he/she did have), although why they'd do so, unless wanting to play games, I don't know!

Reporting somebody for an offence when they did show a valid ticket, albeit not straight away, would more than likely not make it past the Prosecutions Department! (by straight away, I mean a couple of requests. If somebody clearly objects to showing their ticket, and you are almost at argument time, then they're fair game, as they're taking the biscuit!)

 

[tony_mac]

it happens all the time with advance tickets, people just show the seat reservation and not the ticket, then they are asked for it.

I have done it before at ticket barriers because I've put the ticket away and don't want to stop and look for it; they have always been quite happy with a collection receipt (or probably any other orange bit of card).

(And no, that isn't an offence - because they hadn't asked me to see the ticket, they were just standing there!).

 

[michael769]

Why do some people feel the need to carry such vast amounts of spent tickets around with them?

Mrs 769 does that. She just buys a new season and tucks it in the front of the pile, but never ever bothers to remove the old ones until the wallet breaks under the pressure, or seeing it bugs me enough to confiscate them.

Why? She never thinks about the ticket whenever she is near a bin.

 

[wintonian]

Mrs 769 does that. She just buys a new season and tucks it in the front of the pile, but never ever bothers to remove the old ones until the wallet breaks under the pressure, or seeing it bugs me enough to confiscate them.

Why? She never thinks about the ticket whenever she is near a bin.

Yep I've just got a new wallet for the same reason.

The trouble is last time thought about chucking some out I was out and about, I went through them but unfortunately I accidently throw away the one I needed to get home. I've not risked throwing any away whilst out of the house since.

 

[12CSVT]

A matter has been posted on another forum about a passenger deliberately hiding a valid rail ticket behind an invalid ticket to carry out a personal but unauthorised test on G4S ticket staff ( and also it would affect the conductor on the train during ticket examination) to see if they were performing their contractual duties.

By doing this, has any offence been committed, as it was a definate decision to conceal the valid ticket. Is there some regulation that states that a valid ticket should be presented for examination.

I thought that this particular forum where ticketing is specifically mentioned would be the correct forum to raise this query, as all the ticketing experts must use this forum.

British Rail management used to do this all the time - showing out of date passes or Residential passes for different routes etc

Maybe instead there should be an offense of "wasting Police an RPI's time"

The offence of wasting police time only applies if you call the police when there was no legitimate reason to do so, or you repeatedly give false information which results in them investigating a non-existent crime.

 

[185]

Had this some time ago with a passenger holding a return portion of a Saver (Off Peak) Return. If not clipped, perhaps use it again? Nope. I walked into coach, passenger looked right at me, then pretended to be asleep.

He even tried to turn it around saying he could have died of shock by me waking him up with the whistle and the passenger behind him shaking his seat, this he loudly stated about 30+ times was "Assault!!!!". I told him it was infact more likely to be a Vinegar.

£250 fine, £145 further costs, and for his abusive behaviour, 180 hours community punishment order. I didn't bother pass it to WorstGroup prosecutions as they really are stupid and useless - I let BT Police have that one

 

[CarterUSM]

I do ,unfortunately , have certain passengers who. initially refuse to show their ticket when requested due to it being far too much trouble for them to reach into a bag or pocket to procure it, and only do so after a lengthy wait whilst usually barking off they have one plus some minor insult to boot. Quoting bylaws is all very well but is frequently ridiculed by the passenger. BTP are not interested either. I pride myself on being polite and well mannered, so fail to see why I should be seen as the 'bad guy', though I do take pleasure that I still enjoy my job regardless, and a little pity for the passenger involved that they no doubt detest theirs.

 

[MichaelAMW]

He even tried to turn it around saying he could have died of shock by me waking him up with the whistle and the passenger behind him shaking his seat, this he loudly stated about 30+ times was "Assault!!!!". I told him it was infact more likely to be a Vinegar.

£250 fine, £145 further costs, and for his abusive behaviour, 180 hours community punishment order. I didn't bother pass it to WorstGroup prosecutions as they really are stupid and useless - I let BT Police have that one

I'm guessing there was more to it than his exclaiming "Assault" as, to an extent, he is perfectly entitled to object to your behaviour if he so wishes. I am therefore curious as to what he was fined for. Congratulations on the witty pun in the heat of the moment!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To pick up an earlier point about tickets clipped in error, a 'customer host' on EMT a little while ago decided to help herself without asking to one of several tickets on the table in front of me. I happened to be sorting out my future-journeys ticket 'collection' at the time. She scribbled on it without realising the date was wrong and for a different journey. However, as it was an Advance ticket I thought it didn't really matter and so I presented it, to another customer host, for the relevant journey yesterday and was told that it wasn't valid because it had already been used. I simply pointed out that it could only be used on 'this' train and that any mark on it was therefore more or less irrelevant. The train manager turned up and the two had a complicated conversation that seemed to reveal a whole lot of confusion about what a scribble on a ticket actually means! In the end they returned my ticket to me but I could tell they weren't quite happy with the situation.

On the other hand, some years ago a friend and I were travelling on a SW rover and the ticket checking person was approaching. "Watch this", he said and produced a used return half of a Saver, put a circle round the clip and wrote 'Clipped in error', initialled it with his own initials and handed it over. Not a flicker of concern fron the checker. I, being a bit of a goody goody, was more nervous than he... I suppose it shows you can get away with nearly anything if you are sufficiently confident about it.

 

[Stigy]

Had this some time ago with a passenger holding a return portion of a Saver (Off Peak) Return. If not clipped, perhaps use it again? Nope. I walked into coach, passenger looked right at me, then pretended to be asleep.

He even tried to turn it around saying he could have died of shock by me waking him up with the whistle and the passenger behind him shaking his seat, this he loudly stated about 30+ times was "Assault!!!!". I told him it was infact more likely to be a Vinegar.

£250 fine, £145 further costs, and for his abusive behaviour, 180 hours community punishment order. I didn't bother pass it to WorstGroup prosecutions as they really are stupid and useless - I let BT Police have that one

Strange, the Criminal Protection Service (:roll usually quash cases of this nature and settle for a caution. What exactly was he prosecuted for? You mention allegations of assault by him, but don't mention specifics.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And that is a big punishment for something that appears quite minor.

 

[Anvil1984]

Strange, the Criminal Protection Service (:roll usually quash cases of this nature and settle for a caution. What exactly was he prosecuted for? You mention allegations of assault by him, but don't mention specifics.

I believe the allegations of assault referred to the shaking of the chair. Also quite a lot of prosecutions are done privately by the TOCs no need for CPS

 

[Yew]

To be fair, I probably have a few 30 day returns (return portions) that I could use again.

as for body language, these days I generally just chuck them on the table near the aisle (usually quiet off peak services for me) and let the guard do as they wish with them. Im too busy with my Book!

 

[185]

Unbeknown to me he had a lot of run ins with other staff prior to that night, all involving failing to present return portions of tickets, trying to use the excuse that having one meant he didn't need to hand it over - to have the 'single use ticket' effectively cancelled.

Squaring up to staff, spitting, becoming abusive then pushing into them is never wise, and once the police had checked the CCTV, looked at other witness statements they threw his complaint straight out. His complaint of assault related to me blowing a whistle (!) and the passengers behind shaking the (metal) seat frame.

A much worse set of charges were then levied against him. There was a BTP press release at the time if I remember right.

 

[Anvil1984]

I usually carry a few.

It's useful evidence when you are told "we can't sell that ticket on the train" or "we can't sell you that ticket after 9pm" etc.

Also I may have a few that I need to remember to claim on expenses.

Yes but in quite a lot of my cases, you can show me those tickets and I still won't sell it to you (where my colleague has sold a Off Peak ticket / railcard discount from a staffed station for example). The words "but the last guy did" has no bearing on the tickets I sell on board my train

 

[wintonian]

Yes but in quite a lot of my cases, you can show me those tickets and I still won't sell it to you (where my colleague has sold a Off Peak ticket / railcard discount from a staffed station for example). The words "but the last guy did" has no bearing on the tickets I sell on board my train

When asking for an unusual ticket I am sometimes asked at the ticket office what it says on the ticket, unfortunately I never seem to have the right 'example ticket' on me at the time.

 

[90019]

We did it all the time with security where I used to work, and it became a sort of competition to see who could get let in by showing the most rediculous item in lieu of a proper security badge.

The winner as I recall was a tin of sardines.

That's reminded me of this post;

I'll have to ask a former colleague for some ideas. He once was able to get onto a Government site (of national importance, which has a high bomb level threat), by showing a banana instead of the normal yellow ID badge.

 

[tony_mac]

Yes but in quite a lot of my cases, you can show me those tickets and I still won't sell it to you

I think he means when they "can't" sell the ticket, rather than "won't"; if they see one then at least they know what to look-up. When buying Rovers, I've been asked if I have bought one before and if I have an old one with me.

 

[premier01]

I usually carry a few.

It's useful evidence when you are told "we can't sell that ticket on the train" or "we can't sell you that ticket after 9pm" etc.

Also I may have a few that I need to remember to claim on expenses.

Yes I do that for same reasons-also have no time for the G4S at Manchester and have also showed seat reservations and used tickets without issue-although not planned have no problem with this and think that no offence has been committed with this-now if someone did this and didn't have a valid ticket that would only strengthen the case for fare evasion or fraud-also as discussed in other posts have been rushing for connections and not had time to mess about so just rushed to the train-and wouldn't hesitate to do that again if required.

 

[table38]

Yes but in quite a lot of my cases, you can show me those tickets and I still won't sell it to you (where my colleague has sold a Off Peak ticket / railcard discount from a staffed station for example). The words "but the last guy did" has no bearing on the tickets I sell on board my train

In my case though, the tickets I kept were the correct ticket.

Imagine a not-so-hypothetical situation where the guard has come down the train selling off-peak tickets, then gets to me and I ask for a cheap evening return, which he then insists "he can't sell on the train" presumably to save face with all the people he just sold the wrong ticket to.

 

[WillPS]

I have done exactly what the OP is suggesting.

I had a stack of tickets, including the SHF-BPN on which I was legitimately travelling with through Manchester Piccadilly. I instead handed the G4S man a Kangaroo ticket (a Nottingham City cross-transport ticket, issued by ticket machines as "Nottingham to Kangaroo") valid that day.

It was accepted.

Had it not been, I would have just said "silly me" and passed him the correct ticket.

 

[jon0844]

A small amount is fair play, but I'm guessing you don't carry you last years worth of train journeys around in your wallet/purse (your preference )

My wife seems to collect tickets and receipts in general. I don't know why as she doesn't need to claim anything back on them, but maybe it's because her handbag is huge!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Regarding having other / old tickets on you, I tend to quite a lot of the time.
Either tickets I have bought for a future journey, old tickets that I haven't got rid of yet, or even return portions of tickets I have not yet used.

 

[Stigy]

Also quite a lot of prosecutions are done privately by the TOCs no need for CPS

I know, but I was speaking about this case, whereby the CPS did appear to prosecute, as it was a Police case and not a TOC one...

 

[dcd]

I have done exactly what the OP is suggesting.

I had a stack of tickets, including the SHF-BPN on which I was legitimately travelling with through Manchester Piccadilly. I instead handed the G4S man a Kangaroo ticket (a Nottingham City cross-transport ticket, issued by ticket machines as "Nottingham to Kangaroo") valid that day.

It was accepted.

Had it not been, I would have just said "silly me" and passed him the correct ticket.

Just been through Manchester Piccadilly ticket in pocket conversation as follows:

G4S : Do you have a ticket?
Me : Yes I do
G4S : That's Ok
Me: do you want to see it?
G4S : No it's OK

They must be very good at body language.

 

[Arriva 175]

If somebody is so bored that they are hiding a valid ticket to test whether revenue staff or conductor is doing their job then its deliberate foul play.
I would only say this. A conductor has sometimes only a few minutes to check tickets before the next station appears and more people board. Every second spent with somebody with a valid ticket potentially means that someone who has no ticket is going to travel for free.

 

[TicketMan]

Personally I don't see why anyone who is not employed by a TOC/ATOC/Passenger Focus/DfT/PTE/Some other relevant body as a mystery shopper or similar should feel the need to 'test' staff. While I can't disagree that the G4S staff at Man Picc are, at best, useless, rail staff have enough to do without trainspotters trying to trip us up.

If you think staff/contractors aren't doing their job properly, then write to the TOC concerned so that they can investigate. By carrying out your own 'research', you are at best wasting your own time. At worst you are, as Arriva 175 points out, giving the real fare dodgers an extra chance to get away with it.

 

[gooses]

Every second spent with somebody with a valid ticket potentially means that someone who has no ticket is going to travel for free.

1) I hate G4S
2) In my experience, every second spent with an ATW conductor is additional time in which they can lie and refuse to sell available tickets...

 

[LexyBoy]

Last week I showed my bus pass (which is the same size as a rail ticket, but that's the only resemblance - it's white and has a picture of a bus on it) to the "barrier" staff at Didcot and got nodded on... This was by mistake, I was getting it ready for the bus and it's in the same ticket wallet so easily done. Usually I go out the side entrance which is never manned so am not in the habit of showing a ticket.

Then again, a while back I flashed my season ticket, and then got called back as the chap had seen the date on the previous day's Travelcard which was in another 'window' in the ticket wallet!