Deliberate hiding of a valid ticket to test rail staff

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A matter has been posted on another forum about a passenger deliberately hiding a valid rail ticket behind an invalid ticket to carry out a personal but unauthorised test on G4S ticket staff ( and also it would affect the conductor on the train during ticket examination) to see if they were performing their contractual duties.

By doing this, has any offence been committed, as it was a definate decision to conceal the valid ticket. Is there some regulation that states that a valid ticket should be presented for examination.

I thought that this particular forum where ticketing is specifically mentioned would be the correct forum to raise this query, as all the ticketing experts must use this forum.

 

[cuccir]

Byelaw 17(2), applying to compulsory ticket areas:

"
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person."

18(2) is the equivalent for when in a non-compulsory ticket area as well.

I imagine you wouldn't be breaking the law in the first instance though. After all, many people will accidentally hand over the wrong ticket/bit of card initially. If you were then asked again to produce the correct ticket and refused to, you'd be breaking this byelaw

 

[DaveNewcastle]

These seem very clear to me:-

"A person shall hand over

. . . and . . .

. . . . when asked to do so . . . "

These extracts from Cuccir's answer to the OPs question don't leave any doubt in my mind.

 

[talltim]

If you hide the valid ticket behind an invalid one in a wallet, and then hand the wallet over for inspection when asked then you have presented a valid ticket

 

[island]

If you are approaching a manual ticket barrier I think there is nothing wrong with showing some ticket at random. If you are actually asked to hand over your ticket then I think it would have to be the right one.

However, given the potential for mistake, I very much doubt a prosecution for showing an invalid ticket and then a valid one directly thereafter would (a) be taken or (b) stand up in court.

 

[table38]

I don't know the answer, but it sounds like the situation where people left lots of old "pay and display" parking tickets in their car windscreens to confuse and/or annoy the traffic wardens

So the powers that be changed the rules to make it invalid to display an old ticket...

A rule that the parking enforcement officers then exploited to "fine" people who accidentally left an old ticket displayed along with a valid one...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...orists-at-risk-of-pay-and-display-racket.html

 

[Old Timer]

The answer is that an Offence could have been committed but in the circumstances it would appear no offence has been committed on this occasion.

There is currently no restriction on showing an out of date ticket because it would be illogical to do so. There are many reasons why someone may offer an out of date ticket in error and to make this an Offence of any description within the Railway environment would, in my opinion at least, be both unneccessary and unhelpful.

The test to be applied is whether or not whether or not there was an intent to avoid payment of the correct fare for the journey being undertaken contrary to Section 3 of the RoR Act 1889.

Being in possession of a valid ticket for the journey being undertaken does not of itself confer no liability to the possibility of a Prosecution under the 1889 Act. If a passenger deliberately shows an out of date ticket with the intent of avoiding the fare (i.e claiming a refund or re-using the valid ticket on another occasion) then this would be a Prima Facie 1889 Offence in strict terms. Remember it is only necessary to prove intent.

A conversation with an RPI could well lead into a potential Section 3 Offence report being prepared, although whether it would go forward would be questionable but would certainly depend upon the nature of the questions and the answers given. Certainly however it would go on that passengers record.

 

[ainsworth74]

Remember it is only necessary to prove intent.

But surely you would struggle to prove intent if when questioned the passenger says "Oh sorry" and pulls out a perfectly valid ticket? I don't see how you can actually go on then to prove that they were intending to reuse that ticket or get a refund for it?

 

[Old Timer]

But surely you would struggle to prove intent if when questioned the passenger says "Oh sorry" and pulls out a perfectly valid ticket? I don't see how you can actually go on then to prove that they were intending to reuse that ticket or get a refund for it?

That was the point in my post. If a question was asked about what they would then "do" with a the ticket that was unmarked or "unused", then the answer could result in a S3 Offence.

Does that make sense ?

 

[ainsworth74]

That was the point in my post. If a question was asked about what they would then "do" with a the ticket that was unmarked or "unused", then the answer could result in a S3 Offence.

Does that make sense ?

Ahh yes I see what you're getting at now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would like to thank all those who have made postings on this matters and those who have already sent PM to me, for the trouble that you have taken to help my undertanding of why a forum member would carry out such unauthorised monitoring. I for one, would never involve myself in such subterfuge.

Not knowing railway regulations led to my thread appearing.

 

[WestCoast]

You are obviously meaning me. Well, I explained to you very clearly the exact and very specific circumstances. I think you may have blown this out of proportion. Calling it "subterfuge" seems a little dramatic?

Plus, I have never done this with a conductor, they are usually very competent. I don't know where you have got that from?

All I did was see if G4S (not the conductor!) actually paid any attention to the tickets, I intended to commit no infringement of the NRCoC. I wouldn’t do it with any other member of rail staff, as they usually have appropriate knowledge. Other forum members have done the same, as stated in the other thread. I didn't set out to do it either, it just wasn't the correct ticket at the top of my wallet.

G4S in Manchester are sub-standard; they don’t follow the rules of the NRCoC, they have a poor attitude and don’t look at tickets properly. They have caused many problems in the past and are extremely notorious on this forum. Many feel they are doing a poor job as a customer of Northern, including some directly employed rail staff!

I object to the use of a private security firm, which are effectively providing cheap labour. Their training is also inadequate. Other TOCs manage to employ their own RPIs.

A little analogy for you. It's illegal to attempt to purchase alcohol under 18 years of age. That doesn't stop local authorities and other bodies employing people below that age to make test purchases. I guess in your opinion that would be "subterfuge" too.

Concentrate your efforts on the real dodgers, who don't buy valid tickets for the journey they are making!

 

[island]

It could just as well have been me actually. But I think all parties need a nice cup of tea and a sit-down

 

[Flamingo]

Lots of people try not to show a valid ticket, either like the so-called "fare strike" in Bristol, because they want to use the ticket again and don't wish it to be stamped for that reason, because they are a season-ticket holder and don't think they need to show it, because they have shown it to a different member of staff earlier in the journey, or because they can't be bothered with the faff of getting it out of their pocket for the jobsworth.

Part of the challenge of the job is persuading them that they need to show the ticket for it to be marked as appropriate.

If the ticket is not shown, the result might be this... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rain-rage-woman-ticket-collector-woke-up.html

 

[WestCoast]

Lots of people try not to show a valid ticket, either like the so-called "fare strike" in Bristol, because they want to use the ticket again and don't wish it to be stamped for that reason, because they are a season-ticket holder and don't think they need to show it, because they have shown it to a different member of staff earlier in the journey, or because they can't be bothered with the faff of getting it out of their pocket for the jobsworth.

Part of the challenge of the job is persuading them that they need to show the ticket for it to be marked as appropriate.

Absolutely understandable, but I want my ticket to be inspected by G4S to check validity! Many believe they serve no purpose if they don't check the ticket (even briefly) for some sort of validity.

 

[Flamingo]

To be honest, half the time I'm not even looking at the ticket, I'm reading the body language of the passenger. Depending on what that is, I'll THEN look closer at the ticket.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think WestCoast is the one that has blown things out of proportion! Paul was merely enquiring about the legality of such actions. He has received appropriate answers.

 

[WestCoast]

To be honest, half the time I'm not even looking at the ticket, I'm reading the body language of the passenger. Depending on what that is, I'll THEN look closer at the ticket.

You always seem very competent in your posts, perhaps you could train
G4S?

 

[Flamingo]

The action is not illegal, I would question the motivation and appropriateness of anyone doing so, however.

Apart from anything else, under what mandate are they doing it?

 

[WestCoast]

I think WestCoast is the one that has blown things out of proportion! Paul was merely enquiring about the legality of such actions. He has received appropriate answers.

He implied I have done it to train conductors, I wasn't keen on that remark as it isn't true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The action is not illegal, I would question the motivation and appropriateness of anyone doing so, however.

Apart from anything else, under what mandate are they doing it?

To be honest, I didn't even really deliberately do it (as in setting out on some sort of mission!). I have tonnes of tickets stuffed in my ticket wallet, it was just the wrong ticket at the top (albeit foreign!). I'd expect them to have picked up on that!


To understand the thread, you have to understand what G4S are like.
To put this in context, people have gone through G4S showing Boots Cards!

 

[Flamingo]

You always seem very competent in your posts, perhaps you could train
G4S?

Lots of it is gut feeling and a suspicious mind. It's hard to train that into people. Some call it paranoia, I call it experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We have a regular fare-dodger, who tries to pay at the buffer (and buy tickets on-board) with anything ranging from pre-pay credit cards, to M&S gift vouchers!

 

[northwichcat]

On a Blackpool-Manchester service I was travelling on when the conductor came through and did a ticket inspection one woman held out a ticket and the conductor said "That's an Alderley Edge to Manchester ticket", she then showed a different ticket that the conductor was happy with.

I've mentioned this before on a forum as something that would be a genuine mistake and not an attempt to defraud the railways and someone replied saying 'not necessairly' as the conductor may have stamped her Alderley Edge-Manchester ticket without looking properly and left her with the return part of a period return unstamped so she could use it again.

 

[headshot119]

Well after my experience with G4S at Manchester I'm not surprised that people feel the need to test them.

When traveling I always put my ticket(s) in my wallet where there is a plastic window so it is easy to show members of staff.

I was traveling back from Wakefield one evening and arrived in the main part of Manchester Pic station and needed to be on platform 4 in less than 5 minutes. I ran and when I got the the G4S staff simply undid my wallet and showed a ticket and kept going. Only when boarding my train and showing the ticket to the guard did I realize the one in the window was a Leeds - Wakefield Stations ticket.

The same has also happened there with a Staylibridge - York ticket.

 

[radamfi]

What happens if the passenger gives the guard both portions of the ticket and the guard stamps the return portion by accident?

 

[wintonian]

Can we create a new offence in the bylaws?

Making it an offence for an authorised person to allow a passenger to board a train after being presented with an invalid ticket.

 

[table38]

Can we create a new offence in the bylaws?

Making it an offence for an authorised person to allow a passenger to board a train after being presented with an invalid ticket.

But then, as with the "pay and display" example above, it could trap people who accidentally show the wrong ticket and make a genuine mistake.

Maybe instead there should be an offense of "wasting Police an RPI's time"

We did it all the time with security where I used to work, and it became a sort of competition to see who could get let in by showing the most rediculous item in lieu of a proper security badge.

The winner as I recall was a tin of sardines.

 

[moonrakerz]

So the powers that be changed the rules to make it invalid to display an old ticket...

That isn't what the article you quote actually says.............

BUT - having said that .......my son got a parking ticket in Bristol last week for being parked quite legally in the street; on his dash was an expired ticket from another street where he had been parked earlier. The ticket he got said he was "parked after the expiry of paid for time" !!!

This opens up all sorts of new possibilities of ripping off more and more motorists !!

PS: The ticket has been sent back to Bristol............

 

[Flamingo]

What happens if the passenger gives the guard both portions of the ticket and the guard stamps the return portion by accident?

Usually (if noticed by the guard) we write something on the ticket. I probably do it at least once a day, the clippers are on autopilot as I'm reading the ticket.

Other guards recognise it as an official pen!

 

[bAzTNM]

To be honest, half the time I'm not even looking at the ticket, I'm reading the body language of the passenger. Depending on what that is, I'll THEN look closer at the ticket.

Yeah, that's what I would do (if I was an inspector). I generally just thrust the ticket up to him confidently. They don't even look at the ticket if you do that.

 

[Ticket Man]

Just a quick side question

Why do some people feel the need to carry such vast amounts of spent tickets around with them?

I have witnessed (on more than one occasion) people drop vast piles of tickets all over the floor and spend the next ten minutes trying to sort they're valid ticket from the junk.

when you cram that many tickets into one of those superbly and quality built (sarcasm mode: off) ticket wallets, there is surely only one negative outcome.