Greater Manchester Bus Franchising Assessment

[Dentonian]

Transport is at the top or near the top of the agenda of mayors of any significant city. It has constantly been at the top of the agenda for the Mayor of London, despite the existence of other huge issues such the Olympics, housing, policing and terrorism. So a mayor without power to change transport is not much of a mayor at all. This probably dawned on the Tory party at a late stage, but by that point it was too late to stop and in any case, they have so little interest in buses that the end of deregulation was a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

You are slightly missing my point; The Tories are not alone in having "little interest in buses". By the same token, "Transport" is near the top of the Agenda for Mayors/Candidates, but by "Transport" they invariably mean Motoring and Rail (and increasingly, Cycling). Just as the Media are only interested in those three forms of Transport.

 

[Dentonian]

Well, don't look for much hope from the Official Opposition then since the Leader of the Opposition, the Shadow Home Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary all represent neighbouring constituencies in North London! To be fair, the Shadow Chancellor represents a constituency in ... er ... West London.

Just saying ...

True as far as it goes, but look a little bit deeper and the net casts wider. My MP is the Communities and Local Government Shadow (not that he or his former Council colleagues could be classed as friends of Bus users), and next door is the Shadow Education Secretary. OK, maybe GM is overly "subscribed", but I think there are others across the urban North and Midlands.

 

[radamfi]

Problem with off-bus sales in shops (apart from paying their commission) is how is the passenger supposed to find them? Are we going to have a map and directions to the nearest outlet at each bus stop?

How did people find ticket outlets before it was possible to top-up online and buy tickets on their phone? People would buy their tickets at the same time as doing their other shopping, or at the bus/metro/railway station on the way to/from work. They wouldn't normally make a special trip to buy their ticket. Taking London as an example, we now have the internet and auto top-up so visiting shops is no longer necessary. The new TfL app even allows you to pick up your top-up on a bus. But there are still a lot of people topping up their Oyster cards at local shops.

Or I could just get on the bus and pay the driver ...

In most countries, and in London until cash payment stopped being accepted, you would be wasting a lot of money that way.

 

[radamfi]

You are slightly missing my point; The Tories are not alone in having "little interest in buses". By the same token, "Transport" is near the top of the Agenda for Mayors/Candidates, but by "Transport" they invariably mean Motoring and Rail (and increasingly, Cycling). Just as the Media are only interested in those three forms of Transport.

But the Mayor will want to see things happen on "their watch". Big rail (and road) schemes have a long lead time so they cannot be opened in a mayoral term. When Ken Livingstone got in, whilst he was interested in Tube improvements, those take a long time to happen, and in any case, there was a delay before the Government gave the Tube to TfL because they wanted the PPP done first. So, in his first term, he concentrated primarily on improving the bus network and getting the congestion charging zone opened.

 

[Dentonian]

How did people find ticket outlets before it was possible to top-up online and buy tickets on their phone? People would buy their tickets at the same time as doing their other shopping, or at the bus/metro/railway station on the way to/from work. They wouldn't normally make a special trip to buy their ticket. Taking London as an example, we now have the internet and auto top-up so visiting shops is no longer necessary. The new TfL app even allows you to pick up your top-up on a bus. But there are still a lot of people topping up their Oyster cards at local shops.



In most countries, and in London until cash payment stopped being accepted, you would be wasting a lot of money that way.

We're going round in circles here (looking for a shop that's open). Off-bus ticketing is all very well for regular travellers...and those with internet bank accounts (New Year, new spam e-mails regarding bank accounts, I notice!), but I go back to my earlier examples of part time workers, starting their journey from home (where else?), and probably even more relevant, the idea of travelling on Sundays (or early Saturdays), when not only are buses fewer and further between, thus connections more limited, thus plans likely to be scuppered after purchase; but also shops aren't open!

As I've suggested, try it on such as Oxford Road first, where the sheer number of buses and the age profile of users makes it FAR more practical. Then IF it works, spread it further afield AFTER punctuality improves, especially OFF-PEAK.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How did people find ticket outlets before it was possible to top-up online and buy tickets on their phone? People would buy their tickets at the same time as doing their other shopping, or at the bus/metro/railway station on the way to/from work. They wouldn't normally make a special trip to buy their ticket. Taking London as an example, we now have the internet and auto top-up so visiting shops is no longer necessary. The new TfL app even allows you to pick up your top-up on a bus. But there are still a lot of people topping up their Oyster cards at local shops.

In most countries, and in London until cash payment stopped being accepted, you would be wasting a lot of money that way.

Indeed, you could and can still do so in Bristol and Birmingham to quote the two examples that readily spring to mind. However, technology will make it easier to move to a cash free environment.

 

[edwin_m]

What is different with the buses bill is that this is a deliberate aim to remove business from those who currently operate it. It seems very popular to "stick it to Souter" or whatever, but it equally affects the smaller players.

Sorry Wazoo, I take that to mean you can't cite any example to back up your contention that this is actionable.

As to small operators, how many have been driven out of business over the years by the big boys? I see franchising as levelling the playing field in this respect.

As for your contention about the ability to introduce the congestion charge.... Well, the issue of competition is not an issue when it was proposed in 2008. The congestion charge as proposed was not about having lots of additional bus services but funding of capital projects like Metrolink extensions and the Leigh busway. Hell, you could even use the funds generated to improve some road junctions to aid everyone (and placate the roads lobby to an extent).

That's exactly my point. The people devising the Manchester congestion charge couldn't put the proceeds into into bus improvements because it was impossible to do so in a deregulated environment. Unlike in London where regulated buses were a major beneficiary.

 

[radamfi]

but I go back to my earlier examples of part time workers, starting their journey from home (where else?), and probably even more relevant, the idea of travelling on Sundays (or early Saturdays), when not only are buses fewer and further between, thus connections more limited, thus plans likely to be scuppered after purchase; but also shops aren't open!

But part-time workers still have to go shopping etc. and so can get their tickets at the same time. Arguably, they've got more time to get their tickets in advance. I realise a lot of people are hard line about buying on the bus and think it should be banned, and I can see the arguments why, but I'm fairly relaxed about buying on the bus, as long as it comes at a premium.

GMPTE was no stranger to this philosophy before 1986. My dad never travelled far enough to need a SaverSeven, so got ClipperCards instead. He was a shift worker so would need to catch the bus home at 0600, before any shops were open. If he was working 1800 to 0600, he would use a Standard ClipperCard to work and an Off-Peak one to go home. The Standard ClipperCard only saved 10% (10 trips for the price of 9) but not only did the Off-Peak ClipperCard give 10 trips for the price of 8, you could also get an Any Distance Off-Peak ClipperCard. That was a massive saving on long journeys. If I recall, in 1986 the Any Distance Off-Peak ClipperCard cost £3.70, meaning 37p a trip. The fare from Rochdale to Manchester was 90p. So people paying in cash on the bus were paying nearly three times as much.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry Wazoo, I take that to mean you can't cite any example to back up your contention that this is actionable.

As to small operators, how many have been driven out of business over the years by the big boys? I see franchising as levelling the playing field in this respect.


That's exactly my point. The people devising the Manchester congestion charge couldn't put the proceeds into into bus improvements because it was impossible to do so in a deregulated environment. Unlike in London where regulated buses were a major beneficiary.

Sorry Edwin - I really don't get what you mean about citing any example. There are plenty of examples where legislative changes have had a knock on effect on any business. That happened with Working Time Directive and companies had to either pass on the cost, swallow it, or achieve efficiencies to absorb it. There are examples of back door nationalisation - Railtrack being one where the shareholders were left high and dry. You may feel that's the risk they take - they sued and got back most of their money.

As for "exactly your point" - your point is myopic. There is more that could be done than just running more buses, and that was exactly the point!

 

[Robertj21a]

We're going round in circles here (looking for a shop that's open). Off-bus ticketing is all very well for regular travellers...and those with internet bank accounts (New Year, new spam e-mails regarding bank accounts, I notice!), but I go back to my earlier examples of part time workers, starting their journey from home (where else?), and probably even more relevant, the idea of travelling on Sundays (or early Saturdays), when not only are buses fewer and further between, thus connections more limited, thus plans likely to be scuppered after purchase; but also shops aren't open!

As I've suggested, try it on such as Oxford Road first, where the sheer number of buses and the age profile of users makes it FAR more practical. Then IF it works, spread it further afield AFTER punctuality improves, especially OFF-PEAK.

Don't worry, it works perfectly ok once people get used to it (like anything new). There really is no IF about it, you only have to go to virtually any European city to see how well it works in practice.

 

[Dentonian]

But part-time workers still have to go shopping etc. and so can get their tickets at the same time. Arguably, they've got more time to get their tickets in advance. I realise a lot of people are hard line about buying on the bus and think it should be banned, and I can see the arguments why, but I'm fairly relaxed about buying on the bus, as long as it comes at a premium.

GMPTE was no stranger to this philosophy before 1986. My dad never travelled far enough to need a SaverSeven, so got ClipperCards instead. He was a shift worker so would need to catch the bus home at 0600, before any shops were open. If he was working 1800 to 0600, he would use a Standard ClipperCard to work and an Off-Peak one to go home. The Standard ClipperCard only saved 10% (10 trips for the price of 9) but not only did the Off-Peak ClipperCard give 10 trips for the price of 8, you could also get an Any Distance Off-Peak ClipperCard. That was a massive saving on long journeys. If I recall, in 1986 the Any Distance Off-Peak ClipperCard cost £3.70, meaning 37p a trip. The fare from Rochdale to Manchester was 90p. So people paying in cash on the bus were paying nearly three times as much.

There's a difference between Premium and discount. Freezing or reducing fares for off-bus tickets is different to a 3x inflation hike (which both First & Stagecoach did last April). And it still doesn't address the problem of poor punctuality.

 

[Dentonian]

But the Mayor will want to see things happen on "their watch". Big rail (and road) schemes have a long lead time so they cannot be opened in a mayoral term. When Ken Livingstone got in, whilst he was interested in Tube improvements, those take a long time to happen, and in any case, there was a delay before the Government gave the Tube to TfL because they wanted the PPP done first. So, in his first term, he concentrated primarily on improving the bus network and getting the congestion charging zone opened.

Still risky; Reform is going to take years to implement fully, and Andy Burnham and GMCA are under no illusions that Stagecoach in particular will use lawyers to "fillibuster" the plans beyond May 2020.

 

[radamfi]

Indeed, you could and can still do so in Bristol and Birmingham to quote the two examples that readily spring to mind. However, technology will make it easier to move to a cash free environment.

Ironically, technology moved people away from buying off bus. As ticket machines became more sophisticated in the 90s, it became easier for drivers to sell weekly tickets. First Manchester even sold monthly tickets on the bus, although they've stopped that now. Contactless payment is becoming more common, but in Britain that is still mostly used for buying paper tickets from the driver.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ironically, technology moved people away from buying off bus. As ticket machines became more sophisticated in the 90s, it became easier for drivers to sell weekly tickets. First Manchester even sold monthly tickets on the bus, although they've stopped that now. Contactless payment is becoming more common, but in Britain that is still mostly used for buying paper tickets from the driver.

Indeed it did though it did obviously remove the loss of commission to the selling agents. Doubtless, the operators did the sums and worked out that the impact was less than the benefit.

With congestion reaching a tipping point and the technological advances, the move to contactless and smartphone ticketing etc and a cashless environment is surely the way forward now.

 

[Dentonian]

Ironically, technology moved people away from buying off bus. As ticket machines became more sophisticated in the 90s, it became easier for drivers to sell weekly tickets.

Maybe there is a lesson in that too; For "sophisticated" read "complicated and less reliable". As I've said before, one of the many causes of deteriorating punctuality at Stagecoach Manchester is the fact that crew reliefs now take 3-4 minutes, rather than 30 seconds. Now, the obvious retort would be that cash free would eventually mean no ticket machines on the bus, but Operators (with or without LA help) have to prove they are doing their bit BEFORE passengers (customers) have to make their sacrifices.

 

[ivanhoe]

Still risky; Reform is going to take years to implement fully, and Andy Burnham and GMCA are under no illusions that Stagecoach in particular will use lawyers to "fillibuster" the plans beyond May 2020.

Even Stagecoach with their previous predatory behaviour will realise that there is a limit to the amount of negative publicity that a Company can take. Even though their Balance Sheet is in reasonable shape, they will need to protect their current position without spending millions on lawyers. Lawyers will be happy to put in the hours but the court of public opinion is not as toothless as some on here would suggest. Talk to GM and help each Party reach a mutually agreed position. Politics is changing in this Country and clever Companies will have Plan B’s to meet these changes.

 

[Dentonian]

Don't worry, it works perfectly ok once people get used to it (like anything new). There really is no IF about it, you only have to go to virtually any European city to see how well it works in practice.

Its all very well forever quoting Europe but how similar is the operating environment in Europe to "outside London-land"? Are schedules realistic and properly distributed along the route? Do traffic lights favour buses - or at least not hinder them? Is Europe plagued by constant, unannounced Roadworks? Do they have effective and impartial Traffic/Parking wardens? Do the Police close the road for hours on end every time a motorist breaks a fingernail? Is there any form of compensation for journeys that have to be abandoned due to missed connections? And that's just the factors mitigating against paying in advance for journeys - Never mind the fantasy of Integration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem with off-bus sales in shops (apart from paying their commission) is how is the passenger supposed to find them? Are we going to have a map and directions to the nearest outlet at each bus stop?

Yes, that's exactly what you could have, and exactly what you do get in London. Furthermore, "Oyster Ticket Stop" is prominently displayed in the shop window.

To give you an example, I want to catch a bus to Crewe from the bus stop near the Swinemarket in Nantwich. The nearest Pay Point convenience store-type outlet (actually a newsagent) is a couple of hundred yards away off the Square [and recently closed without notice!]. Were it still open I could walk up there, queue behind the chap handing in the lottery ticket for his workplace syndicate ("16 lines please") and the woman buying some sweets and catching up on gossip ... I then buy my ticket and trail back to the bus stop ( oh good, it's started raining) only to find I've missed the bus.

Or I could just get on the bus and pay the driver ...

Or use contactless. Or a local multi-journey pass of some kind. In any sensible setup, buying a single ticket for cash is a minority activity (like "on most buses there won't even be one person who has done so"), which is why in Germany and the Netherlands you still can but it doesn't slow things down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never mind the fantasy of Integration.

In many places, even in the UK, it is nothing of the sort. You just need the right setup. A considerable number of people interchange bus<->train in MK despite there being near no fare integration (PlusBus aside) because, quite simply, there is a large bus station right outside the railway station served by near enough every city bus. Just like it is in Europe, and funnily enough it works just like it does in Europe. There is also a huge set of cycle racks there, like in the Netherlands, and loads of people cycle there, like in the Netherlands.

The same concepts do work. Britain is not some kind of cultural island (even if it is a physical one).

 

[Dentonian]

Even Stagecoach with their previous predatory behaviour will realise that there is a limit to the amount of negative publicity that a Company can take. Even though their Balance Sheet is in reasonable shape, they will need to protect their current position without spending millions on lawyers. Lawyers will be happy to put in the hours but the court of public opinion is not as toothless as some on here would suggest. Talk to GM and help each Party reach a mutually agreed position. Politics is changing in this Country and clever Companies will have Plan B’s to meet these changes.

Politics is changing - but not for the better. As we have seen around he world (and dare I say, on here); Politics is now all about "me, me, me" and if that means sacrificing the bottom 20% who won't/can't conform to "populist" ideals, then that's justified to make life just a tiny bit better for the other 80%.
Besides, Stagecoach's record in GM is largely the opposite of its reputation elsewhere. From 1996 until about 2013 Stagecoach Manchester was a well run company with high passenger satisfaction rates, good reliability and punctuality and acceptable fares, all achieved without slashing services in low car-ownership areas. The competition it faced was extremely low quality. One has already been highlighted; they lost their licence after a driver who couldn't speak English and was fatigued killed a worker on a "cherry picker" on Oxford Road. This lead to a detailed criminal investigation, resulting in jail sentences. Incredibly, at least one of those walked straight out of prison into a job with another local independant who has since also ceased ops. That independant had a poor record on GMPTE/ITA (later TFGM) contracts and was on and off the approved list for some years. And the other major thorn in Stagecoach (and GMS before them); well the fact that they never ran registered peak journeys (except during School holidays) on their two main services was by far the least of their (alleged) offences..........
Unfortunately, the sale of Finglands to First (possibly coinciding with major managerial changes), changed all that. Punctuality deteriorated; service cuts outside the "regional centre" ensued and fares (including off-bus!) increased way beyond inflation. And predictably, having cut suburban services to "resource" the bus war through he city centre, they then start a media war with the City Council and TFGM about heavy losses in the city centre due to increased congestion! No word about congestion in the suburbs, which they refused to address in terms of realistic timetables.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its all very well forever quoting Europe but how similar is the operating environment in Europe to "outside London-land"?

Depends.

Are schedules realistic and properly distributed along the route?

Except on increasingly few tendered routes (not many left), the timetable and timing points are nobody's choice other than the bus company's scheduling department. So if the schedules are unachievable (and they often are), change them. Don't just accept sloppiness, solve it. (This need aiming just as much at certain bits of the railway - some of the evening peak south WCML timetables are near unachievable - I suspect one of the motivations of Delay Repay 15 is to give TOCs a kick to stop them doing this and to correct it so the timetable reflects reality).

Do traffic lights favour buses - or at least not hinder them?

That is certainly one thing they do better. The UK has always been terrible at bus lane design, it has got better but not much better.

 

[Dentonian]

In many places, even in the UK, it is nothing of the sort. You just need the right setup. A considerable number of people interchange bus<->train in MK despite there being near no fare integration (PlusBus aside) because, quite simply, there is a large bus station right outside the railway station served by near enough every city bus. Just like it is in Europe, and funnily enough it works just like it does in Europe. There is also a huge set of cycle racks there, like in the Netherlands, and loads of people cycle there, like in the Netherlands.

The same concepts do work. Britain is not some kind of cultural island (even if it is a physical one).

Yes, but rail stations being close to either bus stations or town centres is not the norm. Indeed, even where integration is bus to bus, it is often a long walk between stops, with major road junctions to be traversed as well as the vaguries of he British weather and uneven/ungritted pavements. And as for MK's large number of cyclists, where do they cycle - and at what speed?

 

[Dentonian]

Depends.



Except on increasingly few tendered routes (not many left), the timetable and timing points are nobody's choice other than the bus company's scheduling department. So if the schedules are unachievable (and they often are), change them. Don't just accept sloppiness, solve it. (This need aiming just as much at certain bits of the railway - some of the evening peak south WCML timetables are near unachievable - I suspect one of the motivations of Delay Repay 15 is to give TOCs a kick to stop them doing this and to correct it so the timetable reflects reality).

.

Which is what Operators used to do, but nowadays First change timetables suggesting every single journey takes a different time and gets delayed at different points - even with some buses taking longer at 0730hrs on a Saturday, than at 0730 on a weekday. Stagecoach, OTOH, front load the journey (especially within the city boundary) with too much time, so that the driver is waiting at every timing point, but then as they approach the outer town, times get tighter and tighter, so buses inevitably arrive late at heir destination and/or bunch up. There attitude on weekend mornings is just the opposite, with big (20-30%) reductions in running times. Why? There are still the same number of traffic light operated junctions; still the same number of stops, and yes - almost the same number of passengers per stop. I mentioned the three examples where I attempted to make a connection (13 minutes on paper) on three Sunday mornings in 2015 - failing on two occasions. What I didn't mention was that on one of the two failed occasions, we arrived in Stockport with a full standing load - and that was 35 minutes (should have been 52!!) before the shops officially opened. I didn't exactly have the bus to myself on the other two occasions either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but rail stations being close to either bus stations or town centres is not the norm. Indeed, even where integration is bus to bus, it is often a long walk between stops, with major road junctions to be traversed as well as the vaguries of he British weather and uneven/ungritted pavements.

Even with the existing infrastructure, that just means thinking about the routes to optimise.

And as for MK's large number of cyclists, where do they cycle - and at what speed?

On the almost-Dutch-style Redway network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

buses inevitably arrive late at heir destination and/or bunch up

One of the key reasons for bunching is that a busier bus takes significantly longer to load/unload than a quiet one, which means a late bus always gets later. It can be reduced by...wait for it...multi-door and off-bus ticketing.

 

[Robertj21a]

Its all very well forever quoting Europe but how similar is the operating environment in Europe to "outside London-land"? Are schedules realistic and properly distributed along the route? Do traffic lights favour buses - or at least not hinder them? Is Europe plagued by constant, unannounced Roadworks? Do they have effective and impartial Traffic/Parking wardens? Do the Police close the road for hours on end every time a motorist breaks a fingernail? Is there any form of compensation for journeys that have to be abandoned due to missed connections? And that's just the factors mitigating against paying in advance for journeys - Never mind the fantasy of Integration.

No, it's all a different planet. They're all green, eat seaweed, work until they're 120 years old - and yet still, somehow, manage to pay for a bus ride.

Do you seriously believe foreign operations are so dramatically different to the UK ?

 

[radamfi]

Maybe there is a lesson in that too; For "sophisticated" read "complicated and less reliable". As I've said before, one of the many causes of deteriorating punctuality at Stagecoach Manchester is the fact that crew reliefs now take 3-4 minutes, rather than 30 seconds. Now, the obvious retort would be that cash free would eventually mean no ticket machines on the bus, but Operators (with or without LA help) have to prove they are doing their bit BEFORE passengers (customers) have to make their sacrifices.

TfL buses still have ticket machines, because the Oyster readers are integrated into them. But they are getting long in the tooth, presumably because they haven't needed to be changed due to cashless operation, and the displays showing the Oyster balance are sometimes a bit fuzzy.

Interestingly, Dutch buses have mostly never had ticket machines. They have always preferred giving stamped pieces of card to people buying on bus. However, in the last year they've started to accept bank cards, so have had Chip & PIN machines installed. Britain's fashion for on bus selling has probably meant this country has been at the forefront of ticket machine innovation. I took a NJ Transit coach from Philadelphia to Atlantic City last year, and there was an ageing Wayfarer machine on board.

 

[Dentonian]

No, it's all a different planet. They're all green, eat seaweed, work until they're 120 years old - and yet still, somehow, manage to pay for a bus ride.

Do you seriously believe foreign operations are so dramatically different to the UK ?

So punctuality isn't that good then?

 

[Dentonian]

Even with the existing infrastructure, that just means thinking about the routes to optimise.



On the almost-Dutch-style Redway network.

I'm afraid its probably 8 years or more since I was last in Amsterdam (and longer still elsewhere in the Netherlands), so it might need a bit more explanation. Are these physically seperated from pedestrians. If not, is there any kind of speed limit or measures to avoid collision - are "shared spaces" properly signposted?

 

[radamfi]

Its all very well forever quoting Europe but how similar is the operating environment in Europe to "outside London-land"? Are schedules realistic and properly distributed along the route? Do traffic lights favour buses - or at least not hinder them? Is Europe plagued by constant, unannounced Roadworks? Do they have effective and impartial Traffic/Parking wardens? Do the Police close the road for hours on end every time a motorist breaks a fingernail? Is there any form of compensation for journeys that have to be abandoned due to missed connections? And that's just the factors mitigating against paying in advance for journeys - Never mind the fantasy of Integration.

London may have the advantage of not having deregulation, good funding levels compared to outside London (but not compared to outside Britain) and a congestion charge in a small part of the city. But London suffers from worse operating conditions compared to elsewhere. Bus lanes in central London are effectively irrelevant because of the sheer volume of Hackney Carriages. There are also a huge number of Uber, Addison Lee and other minicabs. Roads are regularly closed due to accidents, marches, police investigations and security alerts.

In Europe outside Britain, it is fair to say that buses are exposed to less congestion than in Britain as a result of superior bus priority although that varies from country to country. It would be far from correct, however, to say that buses never get stuck in traffic in European cities. Almere in the Netherlands may be an exception because it is a new town where busways cover the entire city.