Greater Anglia - Report under Caution

[altdimension]

Hello all,

Today was the culmination of a number of unfortunate events that led to me being issued with a report under caution. Let me explain the days events and I'd really appreciate some advice or recommendation.

Ultimately, having looked through a number of forum posts, I realise that there's no defence for simply not have purchased a ticket, whatever the circumstances, and I don't have enough money (I'm a student) to afford to fight a potential court battle, event if I could win. But if my situation could get me out of a criminal record - which would probably ruin my life, I'd love to hear about what the best thing to say or do would be.

Usually, (approx 3 days a week) I travel from a station called North Fambridge into Stratford (London). There isn't a ticket machine or barriers at North Fambridge station and my travel into london varies from week to week making it impossible to be able to buy tickets in advance (sometimes due to the nature of my job placement I don't know whether I have to be in office until the evening before). So normally I would purchase a ticket on the train from the guard.

I usually get off the train at Stratford (London) and then tap in to the Oyster system to board a Jubilee line train to get to Waterloo (my final destination).

Today was slightly different though. My trusty 07:03 from North Fambridge to London Liverpool Street was cancelled due to a train fault. As a result I was forced and lucky enough to get a lift to Wickford station from a stranger. This station does have ticket machines (unlike North Fambridge), but as I was running very late already I boarded the first train and arrived into Stratford, hoping there would be a guard on the train. There was not and when I arrived at Stratford I was met with inspectors.

I explained my situation but still went through a 20min interview with what I assumed was a police officer (still not sure if it was or not, I was shown a police-looking badge and ID) who eventually issued me with a card. He said since I'd been co-operative (which I was, I knew that from his point of view I looked like a fare evader) that I should phone a number he gave me his name and a reference to quote.

I realise this is coming to be quite a long post so I'll cut to the chase. I feel I have a chance to explain my situation to someone on the phone (I was advised to wait a couple days so the officer/inspector could file the report). Is it worth explaining my unusual situation or should I just be incredibly apologetic offering to pay whatever fine and admin costs I need to? As much as it would be nice to get out of paying a fine I realise that at the end of the day I was in the wrong and I desperately need to avoid any criminal prosecution.

Any advice or past experience would be greatly received. I'll keep you all posted on the situation and I plan to phone the number on Friday.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, I see the problem.

That train was indeed cancelled (due to a train fault).

I can understand how it becomes custom & practice to buy on board for someone used to travelling from such a station. It's also understandable that you wanted to minimise the delay the railway company caused you.

I am surprised that they are taking the matter forward for possible prosecution, as to me this sounds like an honest mistake, for which a Penalty Fare is appropriate and is exactly the sort of thing PFs were designed for. So I am puzzled as to why they did not simply issue a PF.

However, unless there's some extra evidence* they have, then I can't see how they could possibly succeed in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution as they would have to demonstrate you intended to avoid the fare. But, if they were to try that, you must enlist specialist legal advice and fight it. A good solicitor should be able to secure a victory in such a case.

But they could succeed with a simple Byelaw prosecution, in which case it may not be worth fighting that, as it's a non-recordable 'strict liability' matter.

* An example of additional evidence would be if you did something daft, like you were caught trying to exit the station, or "do-nutting", touching in on a standalone reader at Stratford without making any attempt to pay for your journey from Wickford. A couple of people posting here were caught doing that, and in both cases reached an out of court settlement. One of them posted here but didn't specify an amount. The other one was a longer distance journey, and they had a lot of evidence against him, and I recall the amount was around £2000, to keep it out of court and avoid a criminal record, but I can't find the thread right now. There are regular stings at the standalone readers at Stratford!

We can't really advise further, as we don't know what evidence they have against you, nor what you said in your verbal Statement, but you may find our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes useful.

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe that the journey between stations that you undertook was North Fambridge to Stratford, and that there were no ticket-purchasing opportunities at the origin station. There is no obligation to delay your journey at an interchange station, and I don't see why it would be any different if you arrived in a Rail Replacement car that was kindly provided by a stranger for the first leg.

I think Greater Anglia has some nerve in attempting to penalise you for their failure to run the timetabled service. They should be the ones apologising to you. However, they are able to bring criminal proceedings against you, and you cannot do the same to them, so the deck is stacked in their favour.

In the first instance, I would wait for the standard letter from them, and reply detailing what happened. It is possible that the prosecutions department may then drop the case. After this has been settled (hopefully outside of court), you can then complain to customer services about the treatment you received.

 

[34D]

If you have been truthful, you deserve help to secure an apology.

Don't call or write to them without getting someone on here to ok a letter first.

What time should you have arrived Stratford, and what time did you actually arrive?

 

[island]

Unfortunately it would appear that you have committed an offence of boarding a train for the purpose of travelling on the railway without having a valid ticket with you, as Wickford has ticketing facilities. Being delayed is unfortunately not an excuse.

If it is the case that you were found to touch in your Oyster card at a yellow reader at Stratford without having sought to regularise your position with regards to your unpaid fare from Wickford, then I am not surprised that the matter is not being dealt with by means of a Penalty Fare, as these actions would give rise to a suspicion that you were seeking to avoid the proper fare by just paying from Stratford to London Waterloo.

If that is not the case, please can you tell us where you were "met by inspectors" and what attempts, if any, you made to pay your fare from Wickford to Stratford?

For the record, it is unlikely that the man you spoke to was a police officer. He was more likely to be a revenue protection inspector (or someone holding a similar role with a different title).

 

[jon0844]

RPIs carry warrant cards that look a bit like the police ones, presumably for deliberate reasons (to appear like they have similar powers).

It's quite normal for there to be a level of confusion at the outset, but I'd say that in 99.99% of cases it will be a revenue inspector, not a police officer, that deals with rail passengers and ticketing issues.

I do think that due to the cancelled train (depending on how long it was until the next one) there are mitigating circumstances here, and there's nothing to lose by writing to GA and explaining so. Of course, that means that the OP must have been trying to seek a way to pay for the required ticket at Stratford, not caught trying to exit or touch-out on Oyster or anything that would support a claim of fare evasion.

Everyone concerned has the power of discretion, and as Yorkie said, this is where PFs are more applicable - with you still able to make an appeal.

 

[maniacmartin]

Unfortunately it would appear that you have committed an offence of boarding a train for the purpose of travelling on the railway without having a valid ticket with you, as Wickford has ticketing facilities. Being delayed is unfortunately not an excuse.

I'm afraid I disagree. The journey was started at North Fambridge railway station, and the passenger was delayed arriving into Wickford due to the fault of the railway industry. If the passenger could prove they were at North Fambridge, possibly by producing previous days' tickets from North Fambirdge, then in my opinion this would make the TOC's case rather weak.

Of course Greater Anglia are more likely to view this case as island has, with Wickford being the origin station.

 

[jon0844]

If they went for a Byelaw 18 offence, their case is watertight - but that doesn't mean there isn't still scope for them showing discretion.

 

[island]

I'm afraid I disagree. The journey was started at North Fambridge railway station, and the passenger was delayed arriving into Wickford due to the fault of the railway industry. If the passenger could prove they were at North Fambridge, possibly by producing previous days' tickets from North Fambirdge, then in my opinion this would make the TOC's case rather weak.

By that logic nobody who drives to a station would ever need to buy a ticket. I don't have ticketing facilities at my house, so if I drive to the station I have started my journey at a place where there is no ticketing facilities.

 

[jon0844]

The correct course of action was to buy a ticket when arriving at a station that had facilities, but there can be a (small) defence that the OP only went there because of a cancelled train. Having already been delayed through no fault of his own, a further delay to get a ticket would have been a further inconvenience.

I would hardly ever support someone using not having time to buy a ticket at a station as a defence, but there is perhaps a claim here (in my opinion).

 

[maniacmartin]

By that logic nobody who drives to a station would ever need to buy a ticket. I don't have ticketing facilities at my house, so if I drive to the station I have started my journey at a place where there is no ticketing facilities.

I don't think your example is the same, given that your hypothetical journey does not start at a station The difference here is that the OP drove from a railway station where he was scheduled to catch a train, in order to catch up further along his original itinerary.

If instead, the TOC had laid on a Rail Replacement Bus for that leg, would your opinion have been different?

 

[LexyBoy]

IANAL, but wouldn't the "journey" depend on what the contract is? I would think using a service provided by the Railway (whether train, bus, or taxi) would constitute the OP entering into a contract to travel. Cadging a lift to a station down the line is none of the Railway's business; as far as it is concerned the journey starts from wherever a passenger first uses their services, or from the origin of any ticket held.

Not that I don't see your point, I just think that it's probably not going to be easy to defend.

 

[maniacmartin]

Indeed, I don't think GA will necessarily agree, so the OP might be forced to offer them an out of court settlement. We shall see.

 

[island]

If instead, the TOC had laid on a Rail Replacement Bus for that leg, would your opinion have been different?

Yes. The NRCoC defines trains as including RRBs.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but AGA pretty much holds all the cards and I don't want our OP to start down a line of reasoning that may end with him defending himself unsuccessfully in court, at least without having his eyes fully open as to the implications.

 

[altdimension]

Thanks for all your input. It's very much appreciated.

So I arrived at Stratford (approximately 30minutes later than usual) and went for the oyster machines as this is where I would normally interchange (but normally I would have travelled from North Fambridge and have purchased a ticket on the train). The oyster readers next to the Jubilee line is where the inspectors were stationed.

Truthfully, as a result of my disruption I wasn't rushing to find a way to pay for my WIC-SRA journey, I was rushing to get to work.

With that in mind what should I do about the call I've been recommended to make? Looking over other GA threads I've not seen any given such an option but I get the feeling that a phone call could do me more harm than good. I was planning to apologise and then provide an explanation.

However, it looks like my explanation could do me more harm than good judging by the fact that despite my original train being cancelled, most people think (and I guess the inspector was thinking along the same lines) it provide no defence.

 

[jon0844]

If you weren't really bothered about getting a ticket for the journey you'd just done, that does - sadly - change quite a lot. Suddenly I don't think asking for discretion will work, although you could still argue that the delayed train made you late, and you don't feel as if it is fair that you were inconvenienced.

At this point, I think you'll probably find an appeal will fall on deaf ears and you just need to try and seek an out of court settlement, which nearly every TOC will prefer to do these days (more money for them; less hassle too).

 

[bb21]

I believe that the journey between stations that you undertook was North Fambridge to Stratford, and that there were no ticket-purchasing opportunities at the origin station. There is no obligation to delay your journey at an interchange station, and I don't see why it would be any different if you arrived in a Rail Replacement car that was kindly provided by a stranger for the first leg.

No.

It would be a different matter altogether if the railway industry provided a replacement bus.

Making your own way there using other forms of transport means that his journey didn't start until whichever station he boarded the train from, Wickford in his case.

Thanks for all your input. It's very much appreciated.

So I arrived at Stratford (approximately 30minutes later than usual) and went for the oyster machines as this is where I would normally interchange (but normally I would have travelled from North Fambridge and have purchased a ticket on the train). The oyster readers next to the Jubilee line is where the inspectors were stationed.

Truthfully, as a result of my disruption I wasn't rushing to find a way to pay for my WIC-SRA journey, I was rushing to get to work.

With that in mind what should I do about the call I've been recommended to make? Looking over other GA threads I've not seen any given such an option but I get the feeling that a phone call could do me more harm than good. I was planning to apologise and then provide an explanation.

However, it looks like my explanation could do me more harm than good judging by the fact that despite my original train being cancelled, most people think (and I guess the inspector was thinking along the same lines) it provide no defence.

That indeed appears to change the complex of the situation I'm afraid. Did he speak to you after you had touched in on those readers?

 

[altdimension]

No.

It would be a different matter altogether if the railway industry provided a replacement bus.

Making your own way there using other forms of transport means that his journey didn't start until whichever station he boarded the train from, Wickford in his case.



That indeed appears to change the complex of the situation I'm afraid. Did he speak to you after you had touched in on those readers?

He spoke to me before I touched in.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would also agree that heading for the Jubilee readers instead of the ticket office at Stratford was not the wisest move. I don't think you're going to win this fight, so I would recommend trying to settle out of court with GA.

 

[bb21]

He spoke to me before I touched in.

Not that I think you would win any appeals or anything along those lines, but rather I would think that being caught before you touched in on Oyster would make it less likely for them to proceed with a prosecution under the more serious Regulation of Railways Act.

 

[sheff1]

'Phone this number after a couple of days' is a strange one.

Is there any indication on the card as to what organisation the phone number belongs to ?

 

[altdimension]

'Phone this number after a couple of days' is a strange one.

Is there any indication on the card as to what organisation the phone number belongs to ?

It's a Greater Anglia card.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=37233164&postcount=28

Had a quick look into the telephone number and it turns out its the number of the Revenue Protection Support Services. Looks like the best thing to do is give it a week or two then give that number a call apologising, and offering to pay any such fines and admin costs.

 

[yorkie]

Revenue Protection Support Services is a debt collection agency and will not be in any way interested in listening to any apologies etc.

In fact, even passengers who are totally in the right, were fobbed off by RPSS. Trying to speak to them would be akin to speaking to an alien species!

It is Greater Anglia you need to speak to, though many TOCs have a policy of only engaging in written (often including email but not telephone) correspondence. I do not know if this is Greater Anglia's policy or not.

I wouldn't go offering to pay a "fine" - a fine is only issued by a Court if you are found guilty, so they could take that as you basically saying "Look I am going to plead guilty, just give me the fine". Also a fine wouldn't actually go to Greater Anglia either.

It is, in some ways, in GA's interests to accept an out of court settlement, as any such settlement does go to them.

 

[34D]

He spoke to me before I touched in.

Okay, so you were walking to the staff you saw, to ask for advice? Maybe you wanted to complain due to being over 30 mins late?

 

[altdimension]

Revenue Protection Support Services is a debt collection agency and will not be in any way interested in listening to any apologies etc.

In fact, even passengers who are totally in the right, were fobbed off by RPSS. Trying to speak to them would be akin to speaking to an alien species!

It is Greater Anglia you need to speak to, though many TOCs have a policy of only engaging in written (often including email but not telephone) correspondence. I do not know if this is Greater Anglia's policy or not.

I wouldn't go offering to pay a "fine" - a fine is only issued by a Court if you are found guilty, so they could take that as you basically saying "Look I am going to plead guilty, just give me the fine". Also a fine wouldn't actually go to Greater Anglia either.

It is, in some ways, in GA's interests to accept an out of court settlement, as any such settlement does go to them.

Interesting. What could I hope to get out of a phone call with them then?

 

[bb21]

Interesting. What could I hope to get out of a phone call with them then?

Probably not much that can help your case if you want to do anything other than to pay your bill.

 

[CockneySparrow]

If they went for a Byelaw 18 offence, their case is watertight - but that doesn't mean there isn't still scope for them showing discretion.

But unfortunately you wouldn't be able to buy the correct ticket at the second station,

Providing the OP wanted to return to the first station later by train he wouldn't have been able to buy a ticket from station 1 to 3, station 2 will always feature on the ticket

My understanding is that if you can't buy the correct ticket from the machines you get a permit instead to the exact fare, nowadays there are no permit machines so little choice but to board the train and sort it with the guard or at station 3

please correct me if I am wrong

 

[bb21]

please correct me if I am wrong

In that case then it can be argued by the TOC that Condition 3 applies I believe.

Excess fare procedures also exist for this type of scenario.

 

[CockneySparrow]

In that case then it can be argued by the TOC that Condition 3 applies I believe.

Excess fare procedures also exist for this type of scenario.

If that's the case its not fair on the passenger, I mean the passenger can't buy a ticket from the machine so gets a penalty fare or worse

Interesting to see how that would go in court though

Suppose the only solution would be to buy the wrong ticket station 2 to 3 then get them to cancel it at the destination for station 1 to 3 but problem with that is they might say just buy another ticket station 2 to 1 which will leave you out of pocket

 

[bb21]

I don't really understand your point. The passenger's needs can be met in full as excess procedures are in place. I don't understand how this removes a passenger's obligations under Condition 3, officially speaking.