Great Western Livery

[43096]

Thanks both for the replies, the post I quoted didn't say if LA72 is formed of 8 coaches or four. I find it a bit surprising that another 8 carriage set is going to be repainted as they don't have all that long left to run and all the news when the direct award was launched said only 1 or 2 sets would go green. The power door sets have obviously changed that, but I still didn't expect any more full-length sets to get new paint.

It has gone for a C6 overhaul, not a C4. There is a big difference.

I don't think it has been confirmed what colour it will come out in. Could be blue, could be green. Originally it was only one set to go green (the launch set), but that changed. It could change again.

As for why it has gone for overhaul, very simply it is because it is due. Unless the ROSCO agrees otherwise, GWR have to do the work as it is mandated by the VMI and by the leasing contract.

 

[fgwrich]

It has gone for a C6 overhaul, not a C4. There is a big difference.

I don't think it has been confirmed what colour it will come out in. Could be blue, could be green. Originally it was only one set to go green (the launch set), but that changed. It could change again.

As for why it has gone for overhaul, very simply it is because it is due. Unless the ROSCO agrees otherwise, GWR have to do the work as it is mandated by the VMI and by the leasing contract.

While that's true, I've had a confirmation from OOC that it'll be coming back in green.

Perhaps LA72 was one of the sets not overhauled over the past 2 years which saw most sets coming back in Blue?

Unfortunately I don't think we can rely on any of the plans anymore, we've already got 2 sets in Green when initially it was to be one, the two 150/0s which at one point seemed destined to leave are now retained, Mini HSTs and 153s now staying longer than anticipated and going in green.

 

[Rhydgaled]

we've already got 2 sets in Green when initially it was to be one

I seem to remember a post on one forum or another just prior to the launch that said two sets would be green, one with a refurbished interior and one retaining the First Great Western interior. I initially thought that post was incorrect, since only one appeared at the launch if I recall correctly but the second green set did eventually appear so maybe that really was the plan all along.

 

[MatthewRead]

I seem to remember a post on one forum or another just prior to the launch that said two sets would be green, one with a refurbished interior and one retaining the First Great Western interior. I initially thought that post was incorrect, since only one appeared at the launch if I recall correctly but the second green set did eventually appear so maybe that really was the plan all along.

So are the mini sets going to get a GWR style interior as well?

 

[1179_Clee2]

Unfortunately I don't think we can rely on any of the plans anymore, we've already got 2 sets in Green when initially it was to be one, the two 150/0s which at one point seemed destined to leave are now retained, Mini HSTs and 153s now staying longer than anticipated and going in green.

If the 2 150/0's (aka Scud 1 and Scud 2) are staying with GWR what is being sent North instead, is it 150 202 and 216 and the 2 DMS center cars 57209 and 57212 ???

 

[jimm]

If the 2 150/0's (aka Scud 1 and Scud 2) are staying with GWR what is being sent North instead, is it 150 202 and 216 and the 2 DMS center cars 57209 and 57212 ???

The 150/0s and all 23 150/2s (with a toilet fitted in one of the 'orphan' DMS coaches to make the 23rd set) in the fleet have always been staying with GWR - below from an Andy Mellors interview with Rail back in 2015.

Mellors says that Exeter will end up with 89 vehicles (43 Class 158 vehicles and 46 Class 150/2 vehicles). Two three-car Class 150/0s are also being retained.

One of the challenges the industry faces is the Passengers of Reduced Mobility - Technical Specification for Interoperability (PRM-TSI) deadline of January 1 2020. The two ‘150/0s’ can be modified, and will offer three-car capability for the Exeter region. “They are good for seating and have one toilet per train. They offer flexibility for capacity,” says Mellors.

He says retaining the ‘150/2s’ makes sense because as FGW wants to run mainly four-car trains in the Exeter region, the retained DMUs have through gangways (whereas the ‘150/1s’ do not).

http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/new-trains/how-the-west-will-win-with-new-trains

 

[co-tr-paul]

i have heard nothing about the interior plans for the HSTGTis but when i do i shall post. They should be fitted with catering trolley facllities though.

 

[1179_Clee2]

The 150/0s and all 23 150/2s in the fleet have always been staying with GWR - below from an Andy Mellors interview with Rail back in 2015.



http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/new-trains/how-the-west-will-win-with-new-trains

I can also quote facts about the Northern franchise.

GWR ARE ALWAYS going to send 40 DMU vehicles to Northern.
17 2 car 150/1 make up 34 DMU vehicles and the six others are ???
If in any doubt read the Northern Franchise agreement.

 

[43096]

I can also quote facts about the Northern franchise.

GWR ARE ALWAYS going to send 40 DMU vehicles to Northern.
17 2 car 150/1 make up 34 DMU vehicles and the six others are ???
If in any doubt read the Northern Franchise agreement.

The three 150/1s with London Midland?

 

[northwichcat]

The 150/0s and all 23 150/2s (with a toilet fitted in one of the 'orphan' DMS coaches to make the 23rd set) in the fleet have always been staying with GWR - below from an Andy Mellors interview with Rail back in 2015.

http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/new-trains/how-the-west-will-win-with-new-trains

I notice that article pre-dates the news that the Northern franchise was let on the basis that all the Angel 150s would be with Northern by 2019.

I'm very doubtful of anyone claiming certain GWR trains will not move even after the current franchise ends in 2019, given as yet there's no ITT and no franchise bids. 2 years before the current Northern franchise started who would have predicted the 323s leaving in early 2019 (not soon enough for LM's requirement for additional EMUs) and brand new EMUs being ordered? Even the so called industry experts and insiders didn't predict that!

 

[1179_Clee2]

deleted

 

[northwichcat]

I can also quote facts about the Northern franchise.

GWR ARE ALWAYS going to send 40 DMU vehicles to Northern.
17 2 car 150/1 make up 34 DMU vehicles and the six others are ???
If in any doubt read the Northern Franchise agreement.

The three 150/1s with London Midland?

The Northern franchise agreement shows that 32 x 2 car 150/1s and 15 x 2 car 150/2s leased from Angel will remain there until 2025 (as well as 11 x 2 car 150/2s leased from Porterbrook.) Joining the fleet will be 20 x 2 car 150s and 2 x 3 car 150s - all leased from Angel. 3 of those are the LM 150s, so that leaves 17 x 2 car 150s and 2 x 3 car 150s which need to transfer from GWR to Northern*. 3 x 2 car 150s and 2 x 3 car 150s are due to transfer after the current GWR franchise ends and are believed to be units GWR weren't originally planning to release.

* The ATW 150s are Porterbrook units so they can be ruled out. Angel have 67 x 2 car 150s and 2 x 3 car 150s, so the 3 car 150s being referred to have to be the 150/0s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I seem to remember a post on one forum or another just prior to the launch that said two sets would be green, one with a refurbished interior and one retaining the First Great Western interior. I initially thought that post was incorrect, since only one appeared at the launch if I recall correctly but the second green set did eventually appear so maybe that really was the plan all along.

So are the mini sets going to get a GWR style interior as well?

Just to be clear, I was talking about the launch of the GWR brand; at that point there were no short-sets planned. One 2+8 set was done in GWR livery inside and out for the launch but I had read about a second 2+8 set (in GWR green outside but without the new interior colour scheme) prior to that.

 

[jimm]

I can also quote facts about the Northern franchise.

GWR ARE ALWAYS going to send 40 DMU vehicles to Northern.
17 2 car 150/1 make up 34 DMU vehicles and the six others are ???
If in any doubt read the Northern Franchise agreement.

Obviously a senior GWR manager doesn't know what he's talking about and they just painted the 150/0s green on a whim...

Rather than airily telling people to "read the Northern franchise agreement" - all 610 pages of it - please provide a direct quote and indicate where it is to be found in all those pages.

LM has 3x150/1 still in its fleet, ie six DMU vehicles - Rail suggested last month that they would be replaced with five ex-GWR 153s so that the 150/1s could go north, though given how fluid the GWR stock situation still is, that remains to be seen.

I suppose it will depend on what stock is available when and when Northern thinks it needs all the 150/1s - it's not as if they were going to get that many from GWR until next year anyway.

Also on what happens when a new GW franchise is let - if the current 'buy lots of new everything' trend continues, every DMU currently on GW books could be looking for a new home not long after 2019.

 

[northwichcat]

Obviously a senior GWR manager doesn't know what he's talking about and they just painted the 150/0s green on a whim...

Rather than airily telling people to "read the Northern franchise agreement" - all 610 pages of it - please provide a direct quote and indicate where it is to be found in all those pages.

A unit being painted in the current franchise livery being a guarantee that that unit will transfer to a new franchise, when the specification for that franchise has not yet been written, sounds like a massive wind up.

My post at 12:38 today provides all the relevant details from the Northern franchise agreement indicating that all the Angel 150s will be leased by Northern by 2019, including the 150/0s. You can check pages 145 to 152 of the franchise agreement on the DfT website if you want to check for yourself.

Also on what happens when a new GW franchise is let - if the current 'buy lots of new everything' trend continues, every DMU currently on GW books could be looking for a new home not long after 2019.

That isn't happening for SWT - at least not for routes which haven't been electrified.

 

[jimm]

A unit being painted in the current franchise livery being a guarantee that that unit will transfer to a new franchise when the specification for that franchise has not yet been written sounds like a massive wind up.

My post at 12:38 today provides all the relevant details from the Northern franchise agreement indicating that all the Angel 150s will be leased by Northern by 2019, including the 150/0s. You can check pages 145 to 152 of the franchise agreement on the DfT website if you want to check for yourself.

I think just agreed with you that there are no guarantees about anything in the current situation - if the GW wiring was on schedule, the 150/1s would have been off elsewhere last December - or parked in sidings waiting for a new home.

Fine, you provided the details - though those seem to rely on knowing which leasing company owns what number of which trains - as opposed to what might be 'coming from GWR' and if someone is going to refer to a document in a post, especially one running to 610 pages, I'd regard it as common courtesy to point out where the actual point referred to can be found, with a link.


The clear intention of GWR in 2015 was to keep the 150/2s and 150/0s until the end of the current franchise - that hasn't changed.

Any new stock will not arrive on day one of the next franchise, so whoever is the operator, the 150/0s and 150/2s will be around in the South West for a while yet.

 

[northwichcat]

I think just agreed with you that there are no guarantees about anything in the current situation - if the GW wiring was on schedule, the 150/1s would have been off elsewhere last December - or parked in sidings waiting for a new home.

Fine, you provided the details - though those seem to rely on knowing which leasing company owns what number of which trains - as opposed to what might be 'coming from GWR' and if someone is going to refer to a document in a post, especially one running to 610 pages, I'd regard it as common courtesy to point out where the actual point referred to can be found, with a link.

The clear intention of GWR in 2015 was to keep the 150/2s and 150/0s until the end of the current franchise - that hasn't changed.

Any new stock will not arrive on day one of the next franchise, so whoever is the operator, the 150/0s and 150/2s will be around in the South West for a while yet.

The fleet lists and future fleet lists are the easiest thing to find in a franchise agreement - searching the pdf for '150' in the Northern franchise agreement finds it - second result.

TPE bidders weren't given the option of retaining the 170s which Chiltern had already agreed to lease, so there's no guarantee that GWR bidders will be given the option of retaining those 150s, especially considering they'll be 143s and 153s off-lease with no future home which can be used as an interim measure if needed. Logically DfT should allow the current franchise to agree a short term lease for some type of rolling stock so the new franchise aren't left short but as they didn't do that with TPE I doubt they'll do it with GWR.

 

[pdeaves]

Remember that, even if the Northern franchise was let on the basis of certain things happening, if other things elsewhere prevent that then agreement will be reached amongst all parties involved. That's quite normal, franchises are renegotiated all the time. One example is class 365s not being released from GN to GWR in time so extra 387s were ordered.

 

[northwichcat]

Remember that, even if the Northern franchise was let on the basis of certain things happening, if other things elsewhere prevent that then agreement will be reached amongst all parties involved. That's quite normal, franchises are renegotiated all the time. One example is class 365s not being released from GN to GWR in time so extra 387s were ordered.

Valid point but given the time scales I don't think Northern ordering more 195s would be a viable alternative. Also the plan is for Northern to use 3 car 150s on rural lines where many platforms would need extending if 3 x 23m carriages or 4 x 20m carriages were used instead. On the other hand GWR were only due to get 365s because they should have been available, a consistent 387 fleet should be better for GWR. Therefore, I think the 150 scenario is more like the Chiltern 170 scenario than the GWR 365 scenario

 

[jimm]

The fleet lists and future fleet lists are the easiest thing to find in a franchise agreement - searching the pdf for '150' in the Northern franchise agreement finds it - second result. .

If it's so easy then I would expect the person pointing us at a 610-page document to be the one doing that, not leaving it up to others. And unless people have an encyclopaedic knowledge of which leasing company owns which trains and how many sets various TOCs are leasing from which company - perhaps you do - those tables aren't that informative.

Valid point but given the time scales I don't think Northern ordering more 195s would be a viable alternative. Also the plan is for Northern to use 3 car 150s on rural lines where many platforms would need extending if 3 x 23m carriages or 4 x 20m carriages were used instead. On the other hand GWR were only due to get 365s because they should have been available, a consistent 387 fleet should be better for GWR. Therefore, I think the 150 scenario is more like the Chiltern 170 scenario than the GWR 365 scenario

And I think that after the 2006 fiasco of FGW being ordered to hand back a number of Wessex dmus because they supposedly weren't needed (we know how that worked out) and the resulting bad publicity that got, DfT won't be willing to risk a re-run in the same part of the country.

A fudge was devised so that Chiltern could get its hands on the 170s - there is no reason to suppose that another cannot be devised in the case of the 150s. If GWR could continue to use 153s as a short-term measure, Northern could perfectly well do the same.

 

[Parallel]

And I think that after the 2006 fiasco of FGW being ordered to hand back a number of Wessex dmus because they supposedly weren't needed (we know how that worked out) and the resulting bad publicity that got, DfT won't be willing to risk a re-run in the same part of the country.

Indeed, and it's not helped either by almost every route in the west needing extra capacity too! Wasn't there a 'fare strike' in the Bristol area when the majority of services were formed of just 2 coaches when FGW took over?

 

[PHILIPE]

Indeed, and it's not helped either by almost every route in the west needing extra capacity too! Wasn't there a 'fare strike' in the Bristol area when the majority of services were formed of just 2 coaches when FGW took over?

When the 150/9s had to go back formed as 2 Cars and the left overs to go into store for a spell. They got reformed again after the bubble burst.

 

[fgwrich]

Indeed, and it's not helped either by almost every route in the west needing extra capacity too! Wasn't there a 'fare strike' in the Bristol area when the majority of services were formed of just 2 coaches when FGW took over?

Indeed there was, and the capacity issue in the West Country still remains loosely at the back of a lot of people's minds. If it was all too easy to fix, and everything could be released in time, we wouldn't be seeing the invention of the HST GTI sets. I Can't think of any route in the West that hasn't required extra capacity since 2007 - in part helped by Firsts "revolution" of most of the branches and the mainline routes.

 

[northwichcat]

Jimm - people ask questions about franchise agreements all the time, the one about how many 150s are going to Northern comes up every few weeks. If you want the original text in black and white rather than trusting what 2 posters told you then you should be willing to dig out the document yourself. It's obvious that even now that I've given you the page numbers that you haven't looked as the document does say which trains are owned by each ROSCO so it's very easy to work out where the trains are coming from.

I don't agree with what you said about DfT. Since the Conservatives got in to government they try to avoid getting involved in deals between ROSCOs and TOCs except as a very last resort. Why do you think old coaching stock replaced 156s in Cumbria and 156s replaced 185s? Because DfT refused to prevent 170s leaving TPE despite TPE needing them because Chiltern had agree to lease the 170s with the ROSCO.

It would also seem a bit stupid to send ex-GWR 153s to Northern as an interim measure while GWR would be subleasing Northern 150s. Northern don't have all that many crews trained on 153s ( compared to the number of crews who work 150s) and the 153s aren't cleared for some lines up here.

 

[Parallel]

Indeed there was, and the capacity issue in the West Country still remains loosely at the back of a lot of people's minds. If it was all too easy to fix, and everything could be released in time, we wouldn't be seeing the invention of the HST GTI sets. I Can't think of any route in the West that hasn't required extra capacity since 2007 - in part helped by Firsts "revolution" of most of the branches and the mainline routes.

Indeed, they've become a victim of their own success - though as you say FGW never really managed to shake off the 'cattle truck conditions' image which has still followed the new GWR brand (in the west, at least) because no extra capacity has been added (to the west) since they've rebranded. (Which is not necessarily their fault, of course)

 

[43096]

I don't agree with what you said about DfT. Since the Conservatives got in to government they try to avoid getting involved in deals between ROSCOs and TOCs except as a very last resort. Why do you think old coaching stock replaced 156s in Cumbria and 156s replaced 185s? Because DfT refused to prevent 170s leaving TPE despite TPE needing them because Chiltern had agree to lease the 170s with the ROSCO.

DfT has to agree any changes to a franchise contract, which includes taking on more trains, or changing trains used on a franchise. Yes, DfT does like to micro-manage. So DfT would have had to explicitly approve the move of the 170s from TPE to Chiltern.

 

[jimm]

Jimm - people ask questions about franchise agreements all the time, the one about how many 150s are going to Northern comes up every few weeks. If you want the original text in black and white rather than trusting what 2 posters told you then you should be willing to dig out the document yourself. It's obvious that even now that I've given you the page numbers that you haven't looked as the document does say which trains are owned by each ROSCO so it's very easy to work out where the trains are coming from.

Since when should I have to 'dig it out'. If I make reference to documents myself, I will always try to give a link - lots of other posters do too - and if the point is buried in an extremely lengthy file, say where to find it. That is, like I said, common courtesy. The original poster didn't bother.

Even then, the Northern franchise agreement just refers to sets from different leasing companies, not where those sets are currently being used.

You appear to know all this detail without having to give it a moment's thought - but I, and I suspect rather a lot of other people, don't, so please don't keep on lecturing us about things that aren't always as obvious as you seem to think.

Nor does what is written in that document prove what will happen and when one way or the other. Grand Central had a contract that said it would be receiving all five GWR Class 180s at the end of last year - it got the first one a few weeks ago. The rest will arrive a year after they were due.

I wait with bated breath to see if the laughably detailed schedule for the removal of Pacers sets from service with Northern is adhered to.

PS: I don't live in the North, so haven't been following the minutiae of the 300+ page Northern rolling stock thread for the last three years or so.

I don't agree with what you said about DfT. Since the Conservatives got in to government they try to avoid getting involved in deals between ROSCOs and TOCs except as a very last resort. Why do you think old coaching stock replaced 156s in Cumbria and 156s replaced 185s? Because DfT refused to prevent 170s leaving TPE despite TPE needing them because Chiltern had agree to lease the 170s with the ROSCO.

If you think that those rolling stock swap-arounds, and the introduction of expensive-to-run loco-hauled services, happened without the explicit say-so of the DfT, you must be dreaming.

FGW didn't get the 150/0s, the two orphaned 150/2 coaches and five Class 180s back in 2012 until lengthy negotiations resulted in a variation to the then franchise agreement - which was quite a while after the coalition Government was formed.

It would also seem a bit stupid to send ex-GWR 153s to Northern as an interim measure while GWR would be subleasing Northern 150s. Northern don't have all that many crews trained on 153s ( compared to the number of crews who work 150s) and the 153s aren't cleared for some lines up here.

No more stupid than removing Class 150s from GWR when it still has a use for them. Drivers can be trained on different stock. GWR drivers operating routes radiating from Bristol will all have to learn Turbos. More Northern drivers could learn 153s - or just carry on driving Pacers for longer.

Not that any of this really has anything to do with GWR livery

 

[northwichcat]

Since when should I have to 'dig it out'. If I make reference to documents myself, I will always try to give a link - lots of other posters do too - and if the point is buried in an extremely lengthy file, say where to find it. That is, like I said, common courtesy. The original poster didn't bother.

Even then, the Northern franchise agreement just refers to sets from different leasing companies, not where those sets are currently being used.

You appear to know all this detail without having to give it a moment's thought - but I, and I suspect rather a lot of other people, don't, so please don't keep on lecturing us about things that aren't always as obvious as you seem to think.

Like I said this seems to be discussed every few weeks. It's long been established Northern have agreed to take on all the 150s belonging to Angel Trains - the ones which GWR had planned to release will be taken on once GWR have finished with them, with the last few once the current lease expires (in 2019.)

You wanted to know which page in the Northern franchise agreement but there's 3 things you need to look at to confirm the above is the current plan:
1. The future fleet list in the Northern franchise agreement
2. The current fleet list in the GWR franchise agreement
3. A source saying how many 150s Angel own

It's not practical to reference everything in every forum post.

I told you the easiest way of finding fleet lists in the franchise agreement if you know which class of trains the operator has or is taking on. (Page numbers can cause confusion due to the printed page numbers often being different to the pdf page numbers.)

Nor does what is written in that document prove what will happen and when one way or the other.

While I agree that something in a franchise agreement could change if both the operator and DfT sign off the change, don't forget you were using a RAIL article (RAIL articles not always being the most factually accurate) from a couple of years ago to try and argue that another poster was wrong.

You also brought up the old wives tale of a Green train means it's guaranteed to stay with GWR even after the current franchise. Where's the reference for that? Wasn't there a story about First Group being angry with a rail magazine for wrongly claiming the green GWR branding was DfT's idea when it was actually First's idea?

I'm pretty sure there's an agreement that the current GWR franchise can retain units for an additional 26 weeks (even if a lease has been agreed with another operator) if the replacement trains/wiring is delayed.

If you think that those rolling stock swap-arounds, and the introduction of expensive-to-run loco-hauled services, happened without the explicit say-so of the DfT, you must be dreaming.

You're missing the point - they happened because DfT didn't want to interfere with Porterbrook's decision to lease the 170s to Chiltern so helped TPE by looking for whatever option they could find for TPE to not lose capacity but still forfeit the 170s.

FGW didn't get the 150/0s, the two orphaned 150/2 coaches and five Class 180s back in 2012 until lengthy negotiations resulted in a variation to the then franchise agreement - which was quite a while after the coalition Government was formed.

That doesn't have any relevance to the point I was making. They were off-lease units and the DfT sign off would have been because it involved changing the franchise agreement, from the previously agreed deal. Presumably the additional leasing costs is what needed the DfT sign off.

No more stupid than removing Class 150s from GWR when it still has a use for them. Drivers can be trained on different stock. GWR drivers operating routes radiating from Bristol will all have to learn Turbos. More Northern drivers could learn 153s - or just carry on driving Pacers for longer.

I agree that removing units prematurely from a franchise isn't a good idea but if it's going to happen is there any need to make things even more complicated? Northern crews will be learning 170s, 195s and 331s, as well as Northern having to sort out route clearance for those traction types.

Not that any of this really has anything to do with GWR livery

Agreed the only point relevant to the GWR livery is unreferenced and seems to be an old wives tale!

 

[83G/84D]

150001 working Reading to St Phillip's Marsh this afternoon.

 

[FGW_DID]

150001 working Reading to St Phillip's Marsh this afternoon.

Going for Tyre Turning.