Great Western Electrification Progress

[coppercapped]

I should have acknowledged your clue, which led me to the planning app. Sorry.

The St Bride's site is only a mile or two from me. I'll pop down over the weekend and see if there's anything to see.

That's OK! It would be interesting to know if there is any work in progress.

 

[HowardGWR]

If you go back to the earlier discussions surrounding Thingley Jn and Wooton Basset, post #3192, both being fed from Melksham, GazK explains the idea of an 'independent feeder' from one main location to another. Hence Woooton Basset is a subsidiary feeder station fed from Thingley with separate conductors running along the track in troughing.

So it is possible that something similar is being done in the Cardiff area. Obvious reason is to allow the depot to be supplied while the tracks are isolated for maintenance or post incident repair.

Oi, I thought I explained to you how to spell it!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm wondering if some of the parties involved here are operating under the impression that if they stop the ongoing works now, everything goes into "suspended animation" and just needs to be thawed out when the finance becomes available.

Stopping it now means that all the momentum is lost, and the teams & contractors involved will move off onto other things. When it comes time to continue, you end up with an enormous restart cost - just as we did between the end of the last lot of Electrification projects and this lot.

What I would really be interested in seeing is the changes in the rate of work being carried out over the length of the project so far. I've a feeling that the rate was low at the start (and stayed too low for too long - hence the delays), but now has been strongly picking up. Of course, it's going to drop like a stone now...

Yes, I am afraid so. History repeating itself. Again and again !. In the UK we do not seem to put much value on technical experience and ability.

 

[Starmill]

Mr Ford clearly puts a lot of time and huge effort into his work, and he does a good job of holding the powerful to account, explaining technical concepts and rigorous analysis of policy and practice. He clearly deserves the recognition he gets (although there are a number of other very well qualified railway journalists!), but I am sure even he would say that he is not always right. I seem to remember he mispredicted the quality aspect of the Northern and TransPennine franchises for example, and a couple of other things he's suggested have been overtaken by later developments and rendered further from the truth than he thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

Oi, I thought I explained to you how to spell it!

I should have definitely realised 'ooo' was a bit suspect...

 

[Dave1987]

Mr Ford clearly puts a lot of time and huge effort into his work, and he does a good job of holding the powerful to account, explaining technical concepts and rigorous analysis of policy and practice. He clearly deserves the recognition he gets (although there are a number of other very well qualified railway journalists!), but I am sure even he would say that he is not always right. I seem to remember he mispredicted the quality aspect of the Northern and TransPennine franchises for example, and a couple of other things he's suggested have been overtaken by later developments and rendered further from the truth than he thought.

He is far more qualified to offer an opinion on electrification than most on this forum so I tend to take his word over what I read on here.

 

[59CosG95]

He is far more qualified to offer an opinion on electrification than most on this forum so I tend to take his word over what I read on here.

I second that.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's been deferred indefinitely with no commitment to complete it! Why? Ow yeah because they don't need to complete it because of bi-modes! A very well respected industry expert seems to believe bi-modes are part of the reason it's being deferred indefinitely, so I think my posts and opinions are entirely justified even if you don't.

By this logic there'd be no need to electrify at all because they could just use diesels.

You've been told this countless times, yet you still never seem to acknowledge it.

 

[doa46231]

Isn't that just what is going to happen on the Midland?

Apparently EMT are now considering straight diesels instead of bi-modes because the catenary south of Bedford is not suitable for speeds above 100mph. And electrification is now dead in the water!

 

[fflint]

To try and put the Bi-mode argument to bed, can I say that I agree with both sides of the argument. When they were ordered the reasoning behind the order was electric trains with a get you home diesel fitted. Since the electrification schemes have gone belly up, through luck not judgment Daft has found an easy way out by using the idea of more diesel engines a la the order for the South West of England.

So now they can deliver Shiny new trains, save the charges for the trains hanging round in sidings and every ones a winner especially Daft. Sadly not totally true because Hitachi will want paying for the extra work, many of the electrification projects will be put on the back burner and Daft have N.R. to blame ( though it's true they did have something to do with the debacle ).

So to conclude it's luck more than judgment that Bi-modes have saved the day like most of the stuff that Daft does.

Head down and waits for incoming.

 

[59CosG95]

To try and put the Bi-mode argument to bed, can I say that I agree with both sides of the argument. When they were ordered the reasoning behind the order was electric trains with a get you home diesel fitted. Since the electrification schemes have gone belly up, through luck not judgment Daft has found an easy way out by using the idea of more diesel engines a la the order for the South West of England.

So now they can deliver Shiny new trains, save the charges for the trains hanging round in sidings and every ones a winner especially Daft. Sadly not totally true because Hitachi will want paying for the extra work, many of the electrification projects will be put on the back burner and Daft have N.R. to blame ( though it's true they did have something to do with the debacle ).

So to conclude it's luck more than judgment that Bi-modes have saved the day like most of the stuff that Daft does.

Head down and waits for incoming.

Yep, everyone wins some, and everyone loses some.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is extraordinary is that we have ordered 163 bi-mode trains before even one has been proved in service (125 from Hitachi, 38 from Stadler).
Meanwhile electrification plans have gone from nothing (2009) to boundless optimism (2012) to despair (2016), with only a tiny mileage delivered.
To other countries with huge electrified (and negligible bi-mode) operations it must all seem a bit bizarre.

 

[daikilo]

What is extraordinary is that we have ordered 163 bi-mode trains before even one has been proved in service (125 from Hitachi, 38 from Stadler).
Meanwhile electrification plans have gone from nothing (2009) to boundless optimism (2012) to despair (2016), with only a tiny mileage delivered.
To other countries with huge electrified (and negligible bi-mode) operations it must all seem a bit bizarre.

More or less bizarre than HSTs and Voyagers running for 50% or more of their journeys under 25kV wires?

That said, much of the electrification delays seem to stem from the untested high-output installation process, which certainly isn't rocket science. If you want a hundred holes dug twice as fast, don't ask the guys with the shovels to work twice as hard/long each night/weekend, double the number of guys! This is where our thought processes are seen as bizarre.

 

[ironstone11]

What is extraordinary is that we have ordered 163 bi-mode trains before even one has been proved in service (125 from Hitachi, 38 from Stadler).
Meanwhile electrification plans have gone from nothing (2009) to boundless optimism (2012) to despair (2016), with only a tiny mileage delivered.
To other countries with huge electrified (and negligible bi-mode) operations it must all seem a bit bizarre.

Yes, I agree. Most unusual to buy something without even having seen one, let alone tried it out on your own infrastructure.

But then we don't expect normal decisions from DfT, although I am surprised at (Abellio) Greater Anglia.

I foresee trouble ahead with claims and counter claims over the specifications followed by lots of modifications carried out at the tax payer's expense.

The only saving grace being that running in 25kV mode will probably be OK. Roll on un-deferment!

 

[steverailer]

More or less bizarre than HSTs and Voyagers running for 50% or more of their journeys under 25kV wires?

That said, much of the electrification delays seem to stem from the untested high-output installation process, which certainly isn't rocket science. If you want a hundred holes dug twice as fast, don't ask the guys with the shovels to work twice as hard/long each night/weekend, double the number of guys! This is where our thought processes are seen as bizarre.

Heard this week that they are getting the HOPS supervisors and managers to justify their roles as conventional methods are more productive across the entire job from Piling through to Wiring, with conventional doing all the problem areas and sorting out HOPS mistakes.

They are not producing the numbers and are getting priority on locations and track time, meaning conventional teams are accessing later and egressing earlier so they get a clear run in and out, but are still being beaten hands down

 

[ironstone11]

Heard this week that they are getting the HOPS supervisors and managers to justify their roles as conventional methods are more productive across the entire job from Piling through to Wiring, with conventional doing all the problem areas and sorting out HOPS mistakes.

They are not producing the numbers and are getting priority on locations and track time, meaning conventional teams are accessing later and egressing earlier so they get a clear run in and out, but are still being beaten hands down

Alarming! But why has it taken so long to find out what most observers knew anyway?

 

[furnessvale]

Heard this week that they are getting the HOPS supervisors and managers to justify their roles as conventional methods are more productive across the entire job from Piling through to Wiring, with conventional doing all the problem areas and sorting out HOPS mistakes.

They are not producing the numbers and are getting priority on locations and track time, meaning conventional teams are accessing later and egressing earlier so they get a clear run in and out, but are still being beaten hands down

Having worked as a per way engineer many years ago this does not surprise me.

I remember the claimed outputs of a new generation of ballast cleaners. The damned things could barely run along plain line on their hydraulic drive at the claimed output speed, let alone clean any ballast as they went!

 

[Elecman]

Perhaps they should just transfer the HOPS to another route where the signalling cable locations are known and the oversized kit isn't being installed ? Windermere for example.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Heard this week that they are getting the HOPS supervisors and managers to justify their roles as conventional methods are more productive across the entire job from Piling through to Wiring, with conventional doing all the problem areas and sorting out HOPS mistakes.

They are not producing the numbers and are getting priority on locations and track time, meaning conventional teams are accessing later and egressing earlier so they get a clear run in and out, but are still being beaten hands down

I thought part of the productivity problem was that conventional has turned out to be faster, but also more labour intensive, so the cost side of the equation was worse.
Other (conventional) projects are also overrunning.

Given that NR specified and bought the HOPS, the consultants were Atkins and the prime contractor is Amey, there are some high-profile reputations at stake.

Your news about Amey displacing ABC in South Wales is interesting.
The HOPS problems would have suggested the reverse, if conventional has the upper hand.

 

[QueensCurve]

Perhaps they should just transfer the HOPS to another route where the signalling cable locations are known and the oversized kit isn't being installed ? Windermere for example.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2789889&postcount=551

 

[jyte]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2789889&postcount=551

Bi-Mode 319s? Interesting...

How easy is that conversion?

 

[superkev]

Posted in another thread but may probably more applicable here.

"Found this interesting youtube of electrification of the WCML. https://youtu.be/ua2XH9rspW8 which may give some indication of today's massively increased costs.
Although the working methods looks frightening compared to now I wonder if accidents where actually greater."

 

[jopsuk]

Bi-Mode 319s? Interesting...

How easy is that conversion?

Could put an engine compartment behind a cab taking up about half the carriage I guess?

- although the 210s had their motor bogies in the same carriage as the engine, given the 319s already have a traction power connection from their pick up shoes on the driving trailers to the motor carriage this shouldn't be an issue?

 

[themiller]

I don't recall reading on this forum that the reason for the cabling not being in concrete roughing is that BR was having trouble with cable thefts and decided to foil the thieves by ploughing the cables deep into the earth beside the track. As has been observed, over the years, the cables move and can be several feet from their original locations. Thus it's no good blaming the HOPS train for low productivity in such circumstances - it's a case of unintended consequences.
As for cost increases, this plus the lack of project definition at the beginning will have had no small impact on the required budget. However, if NR had waited until the exact scope was defined and all design work complete, would we have any additional wiring in place or would the government of the day have become bored with rail and spent the money elsewhere?

 

[jimm]

What is extraordinary is that we have ordered 163 bi-mode trains before even one has been proved in service (125 from Hitachi, 38 from Stadler).
Meanwhile electrification plans have gone from nothing (2009) to boundless optimism (2012) to despair (2016), with only a tiny mileage delivered.
To other countries with huge electrified (and negligible bi-mode) operations it must all seem a bit bizarre.

As has been stated several times previously on this forum whenever someone implies that bi-modes are some peculiar notion devised just for the UK, bi-mode and bi-mode, bi-current operation on regional routes in France is far from negligible. They are proven in service and such trains are certainly not regarded as bizarre the other side of the Channel. Quite the opposite.

There are 185 B81500 bi-modes and 141 B82500 bi-mode, bi-current sets in use, all built by Bombardier.

There are also 177 Alstom Coradia Polyvalent bi-mode, bi-current sets of classes B83500, B84500, B84900 and B85000 in service or on order.

So if Bombardier and Alstom can manage to build lots of working bi-mode trains for SNCF, I'm sure Hitachi and Stadler can do the same for operators in this country - or have I missed all the stories about Class 800s failing during testing, which has been going on for 18 months now?

 

[Phil.]

Posted in another thread but may probably more applicable here.

"Found this interesting youtube of electrification of the WCML. https://youtu.be/ua2XH9rspW8 which may give some indication of today's massively increased costs.
Although the working methods looks frightening compared to now I wonder if accidents where actually greater."

Ah, the days of "can do, let's get on with it".

 

[YorkshireBear]

Posted in another thread but may probably more applicable here.

"Found this interesting youtube of electrification of the WCML. https://youtu.be/ua2XH9rspW8 which may give some indication of today's massively increased costs.
Although the working methods looks frightening compared to now I wonder if accidents where actually greater."

Of course accidents were greater....

Stories from back then seem to be of people reading relevant industry publications to see if anyone they knew had died this month....

 

[edwin_m]

I don't recall reading on this forum that the reason for the cabling not being in concrete roughing is that BR was having trouble with cable thefts and decided to foil the thieves by ploughing the cables deep into the earth beside the track. As has been observed, over the years, the cables move and can be several feet from their original locations.

Some recent signalling schemes have buried their cables as an anti-theft precaution. However the cables that have been hit in the GW electrification date from the 60s and 70s. I'm not sure that cable theft was a particular problem then, but for some reason the Western ploughed their cables into the ground where other regions mostly used troughing.

I think at least part of the problem with knowing where the cables are is that the position of the cables was recorded relative to the track, but with tamping and minor realignment over the years the track isn't exactly where it used to be.

 

[swt_passenger]

In a footnote to Table 1 in Roger Ford's column in the December Modern Railways, the recently deferred sections are described as deferred until 2024 at the earliest, i.e., presumably, the end of CP6. Is there any authoritative basis for this?

Good question. Now that I have the magazine, they also suggest, in a short piece on page 9 quoting the NAO report, that the intention is "to complete these projects in CP6 (2019-24)".

Maybe the footnote saying "2024 at the earliest" should have been "2024 at the latest"?

 

[reddragon]

Some recent signalling schemes have buried their cables as an anti-theft precaution. However the cables that have been hit in the GW electrification date from the 60s and 70s. I'm not sure that cable theft was a particular problem then, but for some reason the Western ploughed their cables into the ground where other regions mostly used troughing.

They are also hitting lots of track drains, pipes and 3rd party utilities too!

Something tells me that the problem runs a lot deeper.