Great Western Electrification Progress

[Banana]

When does the Acton DiveUnder open please?

 

[swt_passenger]

When does the Acton DiveUnder open please?

Should be in use on completion of the Christmas engineering work period, its completion is one of the key components of that work package.

Network Rail said start of 2017 back in July:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2016/jul/new-train-underpass-Acton-reaches-structural-completion/

 

[snowball]

In a footnote to Table 1 in Roger Ford's column in the December Modern Railways, the recently deferred sections are described as deferred until 2024 at the earliest, i.e., presumably, the end of CP6. Is there any authoritative basis for this?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I haven't read the NAO report yet. To be honest, I had hoped someone would give, or point to, a summary, that would nail down the reasons for the cost increase. As an outsider-taxpayer, I don't have even a sense of how it occurred. All this about unknown buried cables, erection train shortcomings and so on don't hack it for me. We are talking of a gigantic increase in the original estimate and I suppose I will have to read the report. I have a feeling I won't get further, as if the real reason for this huge spending, in so short a period, had been identified by the NAO, then it would have been shouted from the rooftops.

Not sure it will give you anything you haven't seen already but it may help to read Ian Walmsley's column in the December Modern Railways.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In a footnote to Table 1 in Roger Ford's column in the December Modern Railways, the recently deferred sections are described as deferred until 2024 at the earliest, i.e., presumably, the end of CP6. Is there any authoritative basis for this?

We knew about it before, but the Dec MR also has a piece about the Cardiff area resignalling.
It says 31 signal gantries at Newport need height alterations because they were designed before electrification was authorised.

Even more incredibly, new signalling at Port Talbot needs immunisation for electrification.
This is one reason why Cardiff-Swansea wiring is in trouble.
It's bad enough that BR installed non-immunised signalling on the GWML in the 1970s, but the Port Talbot stuff is less than 10 years old.

 

[edwin_m]

We knew about it before, but the Dec MR also has a piece about the Cardiff area resignalling.
It says 31 signal gantries at Newport need height alterations because they were designed before electrification was authorised.

Even more incredibly, new signalling at Port Talbot needs immunisation for electrification.
This is one reason why Cardiff-Swansea wiring is in trouble.
It's bad enough that BR installed non-immunised signalling on the GWML in the 1970s, but the Port Talbot stuff is less than 10 years old.

That's what comes of not having a long-term plan. Or rather, having a long-term plan and diametrically reversing it.

 

[D1009]

In a footnote to Table 1 in Roger Ford's column in the December Modern Railways, the recently deferred sections are described as deferred until 2024 at the earliest, i.e., presumably, the end of CP6. Is there any authoritative basis for this?

Pretty sure there isn't, all that has been decided is that they will be deferred into CP6. As far as I know it has yet to be decided what can and what cannot be delivered in CP6. However, Mr. Ford has his "informed sources".

 

[Hophead]

Even more incredibly, new signalling at Port Talbot needs immunisation for electrification.
This is one reason why Cardiff-Swansea wiring is in trouble.
It's bad enough that BR installed non-immunised signalling on the GWML in the 1970s, but the Port Talbot stuff is less than 10 years old.

This is something I've wondering about recently. Is installing immunised signalling significantly more expensive? If not, wouldn't you future-proof your new equipment just in case, or are there drawbacks?

I realise this may lead to a bit of thread drift, so moderators can move if they wish.

 

[snowball]

It says 31 signal gantries at Newport need height alterations because they were designed before electrification was authorised.

Even more incredibly, new signalling at Port Talbot needs immunisation for electrification.

I'm not sure of the exact dates of these resignallings, but I seem to remember reading recently that, not many years ago (well at leat 7 because that was when Adonis announced GWR electrification), ORR insisted on immunisation for electrification not being included in resignalling pans somewhere on the GWR route.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There are no additional substations to be built on the section you are asking about. Kensal Green is existing, and the Reading - Didcot test section is fed from Didcot, both are already switched on.

I meant along the whole of the GWR that's being electrified, not just the sections that have the masts and mast & knitting in place

 

[D365]

I meant along the whole of the GWR that's being electrified, not just the sections that have the masts and mast & knitting in place

Yeah, if you're gonna drop a question in the middle of a discussion, you need to add a bit of context.

 

[coppercapped]

I meant along the whole of the GWR that's being electrified, not just the sections that have the masts and mast & knitting in place

There are four feeder stations taking power from the 400kV grid and supplying it at 25kV - 0 - 25kV to the railway. These are at Ladbroke Grove, Didcot, Melksham/Thingley Junction and a site in South Wales, the name of which I have forgotten. There are no other supply points.

Correction: there are planned to be two feeder points in Wales, one at St. Brides and the other at Canton depot. (from NR's Environmental Impact Statement).

 

[MarkLong]

Is there any picture updating about GWML electrification in November?

 

[CdBrux]

That's what comes of not having a long-term plan. Or rather, having a long-term plan and diametrically reversing it.

How much extra would it have cost to install signaling compatible with electrification?

 

[hwl]

How much extra would it have cost to install signaling compatible with electrification?

It would have cost the ORR lots in bonuses to keep NR costs under control, the costs in the NR scheme of things would be minor.

The best examples are the ones where ORR didn't like NR's cost estimates (which were actually competitively tendered for identical (commoditised type) work) so NR just has to defer delivery when ORR wouldn't allow them to spend more than X in a given period)

 

[Dave1987]

Well in the latest edition of Modern Railways in Roger Fords column he says that 'if video killed the radio star, bi-modes have injured electrification'. Seems like my sentiments towards bi-modes and electrification are entirely justified. I doubt there will be any push to finish off GW electrification, they simply don't need to with the Hitachi bi-modes in place as they can simply point to them as 'improving passengers journeys'.

 

[HowardGWR]

Well in the latest edition of Modern Railways in Roger Fords column he says that 'if video killed the radio star, bi-modes have injured electrification'. Seems like my sentiments towards bi-modes and electrification are entirely justified. I doubt there will be any push to finish off GW electrification, they simply don't need to with the Hitachi bi-modes in place as they can simply point to them as 'improving passengers journeys'.

If I were a passenger and I was told that I could start from TM and get to Pad in 80 odd minutes, I wouldn't care if my train used rocket fuel or six white horses.

I think that bi-modes have saved the modernisation programme, not 'injured' it. The programme is delayed for no reasons to do with bi-modes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I meant along the whole of the GWR that's being electrified, not just the sections that have the masts and mast & knitting in place

Well in order to complete the previous reply there is a third substation within Melksham National Grid site which feeds in at Thingley Junction via an underground cable route, and then by means of along track feeders also feeds in at Wootton Bassett. Observations from a train window passing Thingley Jn suggest the switching station there is making good progress, and there'd be no reason to think it would not be ready in time.

The only reason I know this is that it was discussed in detail in this thread back in October, starting around post #3184 for a page or so.

There is also the fourth substation near Cardiff of which I know no details other than it is one of the four planned.

 

[Dave1987]

I think that bi-modes have saved the modernisation programme, not 'injured' it. The programme is delayed for no reasons to do with bi-modes.

It's been deferred indefinitely with no commitment to complete it! Why? Ow yeah because they don't need to complete it because of bi-modes! A very well respected industry expert seems to believe bi-modes are part of the reason it's being deferred indefinitely, so I think my posts and opinions are entirely justified even if you don't.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is also the fourth substation near Cardiff of which I know no details other than it is one of the four planned.

It's where Green Lane crosses the SWML at St Brides between Newport and Cardiff.

Search for application 14/0295 at http://www.newport.gov.uk/en/Planni...nning-applications/Planning-applications.aspx

 

[HowardGWR]

It's been deferred indefinitely with no commitment to complete it! Why? Ow yeah because they don't need to complete it because of bi-modes! A very well respected industry expert seems to believe bi-modes are part of the reason it's being deferred indefinitely, so I think my posts and opinions are entirely justified even if you don't.

I apologise for the sarcasm Dave - removed. Ford is an excellent technical journalist, but he's not always correct. It remains to be seen whether any of the electrification will be cancelled, as opposed to delayed. I think that so far, the planned delays are not attributable to bi-modes, none of which are yet in service.

NR just simply hasn't kept to its planned schedule and it may be lack of finance that causes further delays, rather than any other reason.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's where Green Lane crosses the SWML at St Brides between Newport and Cardiff.
for application 14/0295 at http://www.newport.gov.uk/en/Planni...nning-applications/Planning-applications.aspx

Found it now!
I knew it was at Imperial Park, but National Grid didn't want to tell we where that was, and I thought it was north of Cardiff.
Now I see the 400kV substation is only 200m or so north of the SWML, about a mile west of Ebbw Junction.

However, as far as I can see from the WG correspondence (2014), the site obstructs the route of the proposed M4 relief road south of Newport.
It's quite funny that WG's Transport Dept is opposing a key part of the electrification work!
Maybe things have moved on since.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's where Green Lane crosses the SWML at St Brides between Newport and Cardiff.

Search for application 14/0295 at http://www.newport.gov.uk/en/Planni...nning-applications/Planning-applications.aspx

Thanks I'll have a quick look.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It may be somewhat out of date, but I found this presentation by ABC Electrification on their work on the SW main line (Patchway westwards).
http://www.cewales.org.uk/files/2514/5795/2521/ABC_presentation.pdf

I didn't know they were the main contractor for South Wales, and explains why work has seemed out of synch with the main Amey project based in Swindon.
There are some interesting pictures of the work, and some stats, like these:

Piles & concrete foundations approximately 50m apart required to support overhead electrical lines.
– Approx. 5000 piles
– Approx. 800 concrete foundations
Installation of the supporting structures and the Overhead Line Equipment (OLE).
– Approx. 4300 Single Track Cantilever –
- Approx. 1450 Twin Track Cantilever (Mast + Boom) –
- Approx. 170 Four Track Portals (Masts + Boom) –
- Approx. 7750 Registration & Support

 

[coppercapped]

It's where Green Lane crosses the SWML at St Brides between Newport and Cardiff.

Beat you to it in post #3791...!

According to the NR Environmental Statement there is (was?) also to be a feed at Canton depot.

 

[Dai Corner]

Beat you to it in post #3791...!

According to the NR Environmental Statement there is (was?) also to be a feed at Canton depot.

I should have acknowledged your clue, which led me to the planning app. Sorry.

The St Bride's site is only a mile or two from me. I'll pop down over the weekend and see if there's anything to see.

 

[dviner]

NR just simply hasn't kept to its planned schedule and it may be lack of finance that causes further delays, rather than any other reason.

I'm wondering if some of the parties involved here are operating under the impression that if they stop the ongoing works now, everything goes into "suspended animation" and just needs to be thawed out when the finance becomes available.

Stopping it now means that all the momentum is lost, and the teams & contractors involved will move off onto other things. When it comes time to continue, you end up with an enormous restart cost - just as we did between the end of the last lot of Electrification projects and this lot.

What I would really be interested in seeing is the changes in the rate of work being carried out over the length of the project so far. I've a feeling that the rate was low at the start (and stayed too low for too long - hence the delays), but now has been strongly picking up. Of course, it's going to drop like a stone now...

 

[snowball]

Beat you to it in post #3791...!

According to the NR Environmental Statement there is (was?) also to be a feed at Canton depot.

That would be unusually close for two feeder stations, wouldn't it?

Maybe they're like that in preparation for the Valley lines being wired too?

 

[steverailer]

It may be somewhat out of date, but I found this presentation by ABC Electrification on their work on the SW main line (Patchway westwards).
http://www.cewales.org.uk/files/2514/5795/2521/ABC_presentation.pdf

I didn't know they were the main contractor for South Wales, and explains why work has seemed out of synch with the main Amey project based in Swindon.
There are some interesting pictures of the work, and some stats, like these:

As of January Amey are taking over from ABC.

 

[swt_passenger]

That would be unusually close for two feeder stations, wouldn't it?

Maybe they're like that in preparation for the Valley lines being wired too?

If you go back to the earlier discussions surrounding Thingley Jn and Wootton Bassett, post #3192, both being fed from Melksham, GazK explains the idea of an 'independent feeder' from one main location to another. Hence Wootton Bassett is a subsidiary feeder station fed from Thingley with separate conductors running along the track in troughing.

So it is possible that something similar is being done in the Cardiff area. Obvious reason is to allow the depot to be supplied while the tracks are isolated for maintenance or post incident repair.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

As of January Amey are taking over from ABC.

But aren't they still covering the Welsh works ?