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Great Western Electrification Progress

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Tio Terry

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"There will be no financial arrangements if it is part of the National Network.

And there you have it!

Crossrail argues it is not part of the National Network. If you go back to around 2010, when this was being planned, Crossrail finished at Maidenhead and the TOC (FGW at the time) was expecting to be operating a diesel service from Reading along the route. During the discussions the TOC said that their preference was for turnback from the platforms because their drivers could easily change ends by walking along the platform. There is not enough room for a safe walkway along the length of the turnback but that didn't bother Crossrail because they knew their stock could be walked through.

The Network Change Notice that was sent out made it clear that the turnback was for Crossrail trains only. In 2014 Crossrail services were extended to Reading but it seems that nobody revisited the requirements at Maidenhead, so the platforms still have turnback facilities and the turnback is still for Crossrail only.

Time will tell, we will see if there is a change of heart but at this moment in time the Network Change does not include anything other than 345's in the turnback. Crossrail will not accept any charges for any changes arguing that they have provided what was requested in the first place - which is true - so if GWR wants them to include any other rolling stock in their risk assessments and complete a GE/RT8270 assessment then they must pay for it.

FOC's had no interest in using the turnback at all.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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Modern electric trains on this route will help induce these people off the roads. They don’t give one toss who operates the trains or whether it is the south Wales Metro or the Bristol Metro. All they want are decent fast trains with plenty of space so that they do not have to stand.

Well said - so very true.
 

deltic08

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Indeed, I was only joking about the coasting and banking.

Swansea-Cardiff-Newport-Bristol TM stoppers would certainly help justify wiring to Swansea, though I think the DfT would expect the Welsh Government to pay.

Would it be too much to ask for a Swansea-Taunton (or even Exeter/Paignton)service operated by 5-car bimode IEP units? A 3 hour journey that is only just shorter than Paddington-Worcester/Hereford using 5-car bimodes.
 

coppercapped

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At peak times on weekdays, you have 2 trains per hour between London & Swansea. From PAD - 15.45, 16.15, 16.45, 17.15. 17.45, 18.15, 18.45 & 19.15 all go through to Swansea.

In the morning peak, these departures leave Swansea for PAD:> 4.58,
05.27, 5.58, 6.28, 6.58, 7.28, 7.58, 8.28.

Oh, yes, wow. This now makes 4 hours of the total working day where two long trains an hour run. There are another 12 or 14 hours of the day when there is still only one long train running in each direction.

So, had they been able to get the wires through to Swansea, a considerable amount of money would have been saved by ordering electric trains instead of the hybrid versions - where the diesel engines will require on-going maintenance.

Why would money have been saved? Think a bit about the area served and the structure of the IEP deal.

The Great Western's route structure has always been very different from that of the routes to the North from London. In these cases there are large cities at each end of the routes (Glasgow, Edinburgh) and largish towns and cities between them. It is comparatively simple to run fixed length trains between them.

The Great Western's route structure resembles that of a fan, it has a large city at the pivot and although some large towns and cities are on the network they by no means lie in anything like a straight line and there is quite a lot of thinly populated country past the last city. The extremities of these routes are very unlikely ever to be able to generate enough traffic to carry the fixed costs of electrification.

This means that at some point in the journey a change of traction will be needed and, ideally, the train length will be matched to the traffic. In days gone by the GWR dropped sections of trains at Exeter or Newton Abbot for Torbay and Kingswear or left the restaurant cars at Plymouth and Worcester letting a shorter train go forward. Bi-modes are a technically appropriate answer to this issue and they come in two lengths which allow this type of operation to be used again. They also permit electric operation on the most densely trafficked parts of the route.

For reliable operation of a railway, or any transport business, the trains (or planes) will ideally be the same so there is no problem of substituting a different unit for a defective one. If one deliberately makes, in the case of the GW, one sub-group more restrictive in its area of operation - by making it electric-only -one is making a rod for one's own back.

As for spending money - the way the IEP deal is structured means that Agility Trains first receives payment when the first trains enter revenue earning service. At the moment Agility Trains/Hitachi is carrying the whole cost of the design, development and manufacture of the trains and the cost of construction of the maintenance depots. This is why the deal is so eye-wateringly expensive - a very large proportion of the leasing costs will go on servicing Hitachi's debt which is needed to pay for all this before it starts receiving an income. Agility Trains also signed up to fulfilling diagrams, not supplying trains but fulfilling diagrams, with a very high degree of reliability. This means that more trains will be built than would be the case in a conventional ROSCO-type deal. Hitachi explained all this to a meeting of the IMechE a year or more ago and the lesson was that the capital cost of the train made very little difference to the lease costs over the 27.5 years of the contract from the date the trains enter service.

So, with or without the diesel engines, there would be little difference in lease costs.

You break the existing traffic flow (Taunton to Cardiff) because a change has taken place with electrification whereby it is desirable to operate a new electric flow Swansea > Bristol Temple Meads and switch the diesel service from Taunton to perhaps Gloucester. This helps justify the cost of electrification and removes dangerous fumes from the Severn tunnel as well as stations.

The railways are not there as somebody's toy train set - they are there to supply a need. If the traffic flow from (Points southwest) - Taunton - Bristol - Cardiff -(points west) is more significant than Taunton - Bristol - Gloucester then it is plain stupidity and bad business to turf the customers out at Bristol because of some perceived operating advantage.

The question of fumes is a red herring - in steam days it used to be a lot worse and nobody, to my knowledge died. All one did was close the windows to keep the smuts out. If the fumes from the little remaining diesel traffic are so bad then some more bi-modes of some variety (there is now a choice) could be leased.

Someone has commented that a Swansea to Bristol Temple Meads electric service would be part of the South Wales Metro and the responsibility of the Welsh Government. All well and good, but it is also a part of the Bristol commuter belt with many people travelling from say Severn Tunnel Junction to Temple Meads or Filton. Likewise, many people from these places commute to Cardiff or Newport. The fact is that the public are living where they can afford and consider time it takes to get to work and the transport facilities that are available. If you have clapped out overloaded Sprinters, then they are more likely to use their cars and jam up the M4 and M32. Modern electric trains on this route will help induce these people off the roads. They don’t give one toss who operates the trains or whether it is the south Wales Metro or the Bristol Metro. All they want are decent fast trains with plenty of space so that they do not have to stand.

Politicians from Cardiff, Newport & Bristol have been taking about co-operating on transport issues. I would contend that Swansea should also be included to form one ‘super region’ which could perhaps extend eastward to include Bath.

Yup - all good stuff. But has little to do with the case for extending the wires westward from Cardiff. A bi-mode can still reach Swansea, and indeed Carmarthen, from London and the passenger does even have to get out of his or her seat. It's not as if west Wales is being cut off.

Don't get me wrong - it would be nice to have electric operation the whole way. But warm and woolly arguments do not make a business, i.e., financial, case.
 
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Dai Corner

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Would it be too much to ask for a Swansea-Taunton (or even Exeter/Paignton)service operated by 5-car bimode IEP units? A 3 hour journey that is only just shorter than Paddington-Worcester/Hereford using 5-car bimodes.

Though you can change between GWR and Crosscountry at Bristol Parkway for a faster and more comfortable journey.
 

D1009

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"There will be no financial arrangements if it is part of the National Network.

And there you have it!

Crossrail argues it is not part of the National Network. If you go back to around 2010, when this was being planned, Crossrail finished at Maidenhead and the TOC (FGW at the time) was expecting to be operating a diesel service from Reading along the route. During the discussions the TOC said that their preference was for turnback from the platforms because their drivers could easily change ends by walking along the platform. There is not enough room for a safe walkway along the length of the turnback but that didn't bother Crossrail because they knew their stock could be walked through.

The Network Change Notice that was sent out made it clear that the turnback was for Crossrail trains only. In 2014 Crossrail services were extended to Reading but it seems that nobody revisited the requirements at Maidenhead, so the platforms still have turnback facilities and the turnback is still for Crossrail only.

Time will tell, we will see if there is a change of heart but at this moment in time the Network Change does not include anything other than 345's in the turnback. Crossrail will not accept any charges for any changes arguing that they have provided what was requested in the first place - which is true - so if GWR wants them to include any other rolling stock in their risk assessments and complete a GE/RT8270 assessment then they must pay for it.

FOC's had no interest in using the turnback at all.
Are you trying to imply that there is some sort of argument between GWR and Crossrail over this? The fact that the Network Change notice and subsequently the Sectional Appendix currently refers to class 345 rolling stock does not mean that the turnback can only ever be used by that stock, the sectional appendix is updated on a regular basis. Why would Crossrail object to GWR using it before their own stock is available?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Would it be too much to ask for a Swansea-Taunton (or even Exeter/Paignton)service operated by 5-car bimode IEP units? A 3 hour journey that is only just shorter than Paddington-Worcester/Hereford using 5-car bimodes.

It's a fair question. OTOH if electrification to Swansea is coincident with completion of electrification of both routes to Bristol you can make an argument for running pure EMUs Swansea-Bristol-Bath. The Bath route has seen big increases in commuter numbers in recent times and some of them go to Filton Abbey Wood, not Temple Meads. I don't think there's a "right" answer to this question unless someone can provide evidence of numbers on the various possible cross-Bristol flows.
 

swt_passenger

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They've sent a letter out stating that Stockley Junction to Maidenhead will be considered energised from some date in January.

So I'd say that heading out of Paddington nothing beyond the present limit has been energised yet.

I'm assuming here you are not asking about the section west of Reading.
 
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a_c_skinner

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Reading the above about what trains go where I confidently make one prediction:

The number of seats provided will prove either immediately or very quickly to be hopelessly inadequate.

Andrew
 

Envoy

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It's a fair question. OTOH if electrification to Swansea is coincident with completion of electrification of both routes to Bristol you can make an argument for running pure EMUs Swansea-Bristol-Bath. The Bath route has seen big increases in commuter numbers in recent times and some of them go to Filton Abbey Wood, not Temple Meads. I don't think there's a "right" answer to this question unless someone can provide evidence of numbers on the various possible cross-Bristol flows.

It is very difficult to work out the flows of people. We could well have a situation today where many people are using cars because the railways in these areas are so overloaded - especially at commuting times. One way of judging the ‘flows’ of traffic is to look at roads & motorways at various times. (Google Maps with TRAFFIC enabled is a good way of doing this).

I think that a Swansea > Bath EMU service would be well received/used. It would especially useful for commuters and tourists alike.

Some people seem to think that west of Cardiff, the population density does not justify electrification. Bridgend County has around 50,000 people and West Glamorgan (Swansea, Neath & Port Talbot) about 365,00. So, that makes a total of 415,000. Throw in Llanelli with 49,591 and we have a total of 464,591 - hardly a small ‘rural’ population! (The Carmarthenshire total is 183,000 with most of them in the Llanelli area). Considerable amounts of traffic are on the M4 between Cardiff and Pont Abram. Jams are especially frequent in the Port Talbot area.

I would contend that such a population density would justify electrification of the Cardiff to Swansea section of the GWML - along with the Maesteg branch.

Click & drag map for other areas:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4725345,-2.5959464,12z/data=!5m1!1e1
 
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reddragon

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How far along out of Paddington is the OLE currently energised to?

When I travelled up to London last week, the wires were complete to West Drayton and from west of Slough to Maidenhead (short gap on mains) plus many bits in between.

Reading Depot (live from 4/12) - Tilehurst -Didcot is already live.

Power is due to be switched on west to Maidenhead in stages from Feb 2017 with trains in service from May 2017
 

swt_passenger

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A question, that occurred to me today, for anyone who thinks the wires will never reach Oxford.

What will GWR use all their spare 387s for?
 

TheKnightWho

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A question, that occurred to me today, for anyone who thinks the wires will never reach Oxford.

What will GWR use all their spare 387s for?

Leased to strengthen south of London services? I expect the wires will reach Oxford in CP6 with a completely rebuilt station by around 2024.
 

swt_passenger

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I expect the wires will reach Oxford in CP6 with a completely rebuilt station by around 2024.

Me too, it was more of a rhetorical question. Although I'd be cautiously treating the anticipated station building improvements as a separate project to follow the platform and layout alterations.
 

hwl

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A question, that occurred to me today, for anyone who thinks the wires will never reach Oxford.

What will GWR use all their spare 387s for?

NR letters to local MPs have been saying delayed rather than cancelled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't know how fast the MML electrification is going but I feel they're more likely to reach Oxford before Corby.

I'd put money on Corby at the moment.
The Oxford resignalling isn't due to complete until just into CP6 but the civils and structure work to Corby is mostly completed already so the electrification itself should be fairly easy to do efficiently.
 

snowball

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There's a date for Corby that has been reaffirmed in the last week in the franchise prospectus, whereas Oxford has been said to be deferred.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Yes, Selby to Hull has been ruled out, and I can't see Swansea has a better business case, but with Welsh politics, who knows?

Regarding Welsh politics in relation to GWR electrification, are the Senadd in favour of electrifying the Valley Lines network?

I seem to remember that regarding Swansea, it was tagged onto the Valley Lines network as it is around 18 miles (I believe) from Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont to Swansea/Abertawe.

Also, have the Senadd made any noises about electrifying the GWR route between Newport and Chester via Hereford and Shrewsbury?
 

jyte

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There's a date for Corby that has been reaffirmed in the last week in the franchise prospectus, whereas Oxford has been said to be deferred.

I did not know what. I guess Corby before Oxford then.

I know the 387s GWR is getting have 110mph capability but could they do those speeds as an 8 car set on the headspan heavy overhead fast lines on the MML?
 

Peter Sarf

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A question, that occurred to me today, for anyone who thinks the wires will never reach Oxford.

What will GWR use all their spare 387s for?

I think possibly not many spare EMUs as there are less EXTRA 387s ordered than there were cascaded 365 originally envisaged. I mean the fact that the 365s are not being taken and instead a mixture of Bi-Mode IEPs and class 387s have been ordered as replacements. I seem to recall the plan to use 365s was replaced by IEPs on the longer bit to Oxford and 387s for services not going so far West.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Regarding Welsh politics in relation to GWR electrification, are the Senadd in favour of electrifying the Valley Lines network?
I seem to remember that regarding Swansea, it was tagged onto the Valley Lines network as it is around 18 miles (I believe) from Bridgend/Pen-y-Bont to Swansea/Abertawe.
Also, have the Senadd made any noises about electrifying the GWR route between Newport and Chester via Hereford and Shrewsbury?

The Senedd will vote for anything if someone else pays.
Wales does not have the powers for large rail projects.
Rail devolution (along with the funding) is said to be coming but hasn't happened yet.
All they can do is lobby Westminster.
Maybe the Chancellor will tell us something on Wednesday.

There was a deal which meant that the UK would finish Cardiff-Swansea and give £150m to the WG as a contribution to the Valley lines.
But delays and cost increases have put all that in doubt, just like the other electrification schemes.
But WG are working on plans for the South Wales Metro (including the Valleys), but who knows what that will turn into (ie heavy or light rail).
 

jimm

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A question, that occurred to me today, for anyone who thinks the wires will never reach Oxford.

What will GWR use all their spare 387s for?

What 'spare' 387s? The sets that would have gone up to Oxford will be needed to work the semi-fasts to and from Didcot anyway.

The sets allocated to the semi-fasts may have a leisurely turnaround at Didcot, as the timetable will probably be structured on the basis that sooner or later they will be going to Oxford and back - rather in the way Chiltern's timetable restructure anticipated the start of their Oxford service well before trains were able to go there - but 'spare' sets, I don't think so...
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Are all the feeds (where the knitting connects to the sub stations feeding the OLE) and all the substations in place yet?
 

swt_passenger

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Are all the feeds (where the knitting connects to the sub stations feeding the OLE) and all the substations in place yet?

There are no additional substations to be built on the section you are asking about. Kensal Green is existing, and the Reading - Didcot test section is fed from Didcot, both are already switched on.
 
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