Grand Union & why it rejected Class 222

[sleepinglion]

I was reading an article on rail magazine about why Grand Union sold their rights to Lumo, and this line seemed curious to me.

Initially, Grand Union wanted to use Class 222 diesel-electric multiple units, but Managing Director Ian Yeowart said these units would be unable to reach their 125mph top speed.

The ‘222s’ are not fitted with Automatic Train Protection (ATP), which is in use on the South Wales Main Line between Paddington and Chipping Sodbury.

Even if fitted with ATP, they would be limited to a maximum of 110mph, meaning they would have been unable to keep to the South Wales and Great Western Main Line timetables, which require 125mph running.

The part about ATP aside, why does he think they couldn't hit 125mph? That was their designed speed wasn't it? And they had better acceleration than the HSTs that were until recently used on the GWR mainline?

 

[nickswift99]

I was reading an article on rail magazine about why Grand Union sold their rights to Lumo, and this line seemed curious to me.



The part about ATP aside, why does he think they couldn't hit 125mph? That was their designed speed wasn't it? And they had better acceleration than the HSTs that were until recently used on the GWR mainline?

Is 125mph absolutely required? GWR run 387s along this route which are definitely not capable of 125mph.

 

[Horizon22]

Is 125mph absolutely required? GWR run 387s along this route which are definitely not capable of 125mph.

Depends what pathing they have available, particularly between Paddington and Heathrow Airport Junction.

 

[The Planner]

Is 125mph absolutely required? GWR run 387s along this route which are definitely not capable of 125mph.

If the paths don't work without 125mph running times, then clearly yes!

 

[357]

The part about ATP aside, why does he think they couldn't hit 125mph?

Because they don't have ATP.

The rest is most likely Rail being inaccurate as normal

 

[notadriver]

They should get rid of ATP as they did on Chiltern. TPWS+ should suffice until the eventual fitment of ETCS.
But I understand why the WCML needs its TASS.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because they don't have ATP.
The rest is most likely Rail being inaccurate as normal

The statement says they would be limited to 110mph even if fitted with ATP.
That's the bit I don't understand.

 

[Harpo]

They should get rid of ATP as they did on Chiltern.

ATP has been hugely political on the GWML especially after Southall and Ladbroke.

 

[357]

The statement says they would be limited to 110mph even if fitted with ATP.
That's the bit I don't understand.

That's the bit I'd lean towards being inaccurate journalism or a misunderstanding by the writer

 

[43066]

They should get rid of ATP as they did on Chiltern. TPWS+ should suffice until the eventual fitment of ETCS.
But I understand why the WCML needs its TASS.

ATP has been hugely political on the GWML especially after Southall and Ladbroke.

Presumably this would be seen as too costly, as you’d then need to install TPWS where it isn’t currently in place?

 

[Efini92]

Because they don't have ATP.

The rest is most likely Rail being inaccurate as normal

Is atp a requirement to do 125? Crosscounty voyagers don’t have atp and do 125 between didcot and reading.

 

[156444]

Is atp a requirement to do 125? Crosscounty voyagers don’t have atp and do 125 between didcot and reading.

The Voyagers run on the relief lines between Didcot and Reading. I'd be surprised if they're doing 125 mph on the relief lines.

 

[OrangeJuice]

The Voyagers run on the relief lines between Didcot and Reading. I'd be surprised if they're doing 125 mph on the relief lines.

They do run on the mains occasionally, particularly if delayed as it enables them to overtake the Didcot stopper they would end up behind

 

[Efini92]

The Voyagers run on the relief lines between Didcot and Reading. I'd be surprised if they're doing 125 mph on the relief lines.

Not always, I’ve driven them on the main and did 125

 

[swt_passenger]

The Voyagers run on the relief lines between Didcot and Reading. I'd be surprised if they're doing 125 mph on the relief lines.

That seems to have achieved’ railway myth’ status. It’s been explained many times they also run on the fast lines. It’s also stated as allowed in the sectional appendix - there’s a box on page 79 with an explicit approval for non-ATP fitted trains (not just Voyagers) to use the mains between Reading West and Didcot East Junctions.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That seems to have achieved’ railway myth’ status. It’s been explained many times they also run on the fast lines. It’s also stated as allowed in the sectional appendix - there’s a box on page 79 with an explicit approval for non-ATP fitted trains (not just Voyagers) to use the mains between Reading West and Didcot East Junctions.

Reading to Didcot is fitted with TPWS Plus.

 

[XCTurbostar]

ATP and TPWS+ aside, did Adelantes have any issues reaching 125 on the section Ian quotes?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

ATP and TPWS+ aside, did Adelantes have any issues reaching 125 on the section Ian quotes?

Class 180s had no issues with 125mph operation on the GWML as they were ATP fitted (one of the reasons why their introduction into traffic was delayed).

 

[Zontar]

Grand union website is now up and running, stating it will run 222

 

[XCTurbostar]

Can you provide a link? The Grand Union website I'm looking at has had no mention of it since its been sold: https://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Can you provide a link? The Grand Union website I'm looking at has had no mention of it since its been sold: https://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/

It’s the same site. It says for Cardiff to Edinburgh they will use 222s

 

[Horizon22]

Can you provide a link? The Grand Union website I'm looking at has had no mention of it since its been sold: https://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/

The only mention appears to be in the "Cardiff to Edinburgh" section: https://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/cardiff-to-edinburgh

Services are currently planned to start with off-lease and refurbished Class 222 trains, which will later be replaced by new build bi-mode Hitachi trains. Discussions with the rolling stock leasing companies and the manufacturer have been on-going for some time.

 

[D365]

is it stated anywhere how many 222s are proposed by Grand Union?

 

[ExRes]

I can't find any way to get into Grand Union Trains website either from the links on here, wiki or google

 

[FlyingPotato]

I can't find any way to get into Grand Union Trains website either from the links on here, wiki or google

Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd

Railways to our Core At Grand Union we are passionate about Britain’s railways. We are committed to the traditional values of providing a high-quality customer service and a comfortable journey experience at a fair price. Grand Union is proposing to introduce new

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

Try this link

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2025 ==

Works for me

 

[ExRes]

Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd

Railways to our Core At Grand Union we are passionate about Britain’s railways. We are committed to the traditional values of providing a high-quality customer service and a comfortable journey experience at a fair price. Grand Union is proposing to introduce new

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

Try this link

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2025 ==

Works for me

Thanks @FlyingPotato but it's still a no for me, just keeps coming up " can't reach this page", I'll have to wait for the next one to come along

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It doesn't work for me either...

The domain hasn't expired has it...?

 

[FlyingPotato]

It doesn't work for me either...

The domain hasn't expired has it...?

View attachment 174695

Before going off topic too much evidence that it works for me, see picture showing a screenshot from Grand Union website

 

[superalbs]

I have saved the pages on the internet archive, if anyone is having trouble viewing the page online:

Home - Grand Union Trains Ltd

Railways to our Core At Grand Union we are passionate about Britain’s railways. We are committed to the traditional values of providing a high-quality customer service and a comfortable journey experience at a fair price. Grand Union is proposing to introduce two

web.archive.org

 

[Fokx]

The above website isn’t real or affiliated with the TOC

The fact it uses images of a class 319 from Train Simulator and has a logo drawn on what appears to be Microsoft paint would be the obvious clues