Grand Central new Class 820 IET units.

[fgwrich]

Today for instance it appears that of their available twelve units that they have on hand they were using:

221142
221143
180103
180105
180106
180107
180112

So seven of the available twelve units and only five of the allegedly ten 180s that they have on hand.

Yesterday they were using:

221142
221143
180103
180105
180106
180112
180114

Again seven of the available twelve units and five of the the ten 180s.

Someone will no doubt be able to confirm but I would assume that GC currently only need seven units each day to cover their existing services. But the reliability of the 180s is so dreadful that it takes twelve units including two of a different class (that are getting hammered every day) to actually run the service.

Nine 820s would therefore seem to be more than enough and and extra pair for the Cleethorpes service making eleven would also seem to be plenty.

I’m going to come to the 180s defence a little here and say part of their problem has always been they’ve been somewhat nomadic in their past and this won’t have helped them. Sure, we already know about the well documented issues underneath, but Old Oak Common managed to work their wonders with them during their second stint on the Western and they settled down in the end, even Hull Trains units had some time with OOC. Since that depot was closed the experience was lost. Sure Crofton has had them for some time now too, but I can imagine they weren’t as set up for them as OOC was and will have slightly less knowledge than the GW crews - and is further away than the Oak was.

The interior condition of those EMR 180s is dreadful and that’s saying something given that the Grand Central units aren’t in the best state either.

I can’t imagine they’ll get much of a refurb for sake of a couple years of use.

Those that have visited Widnes should have had some tarting up done to the insides, but not as extensive as a refresh or refurb though, meaning they’ll still largely be in ex HT / EMR condition.

Where will these new trains be maintained? I cannot see Crofton. Heaton?

I’d expect them to be a bit like the Lumo / Hull Trains examples, seeing outstation at somewhere like Ferme Park and Hitachi maintenance at Bounds Green or Doncaster?

It is not an updated design - it is a different design as part of the work to reduce the length of each coach

Given that the 80X design is well over 10 years old now (12 since the first prototype and at least 16 since pre-pro images) it’s a shame it isn’t getting some kind of refresh or 810 style front. Though I suppose for Hitachi’s sake it’s just easier and cheaper to keep churning out the same design.

 

[ainsworth74]

I haven’t monitored the 180s’ recent performance but has it settled down? A year or so ago they seemed to fail regularly but I don’t recall reading about anything untoward over the past few months.
Is GC simply giving the units which aren’t diagrammed more TLC as a preventative measure?
Or am I being too optimistic??

I think the reason it seems settled is precisely because they're mostly using five out of the ten units every day rather than seven out of ten. When you only need 50% of the fleet available each day that gives you a lot of flexibility!

I’m going to come to the 180s defence a little here and say part of their problem has always been they’ve been somewhat nomadic in their past and this won’t have helped them. Sure, we already know about the well documented issues underneath, but Old Oak Common managed to work their wonders with them during their second stint on the Western and they settled down in the end, even Hull Trains units had some time with OOC. Since that depot was closed the experience was lost. Sure Crofton has had them for some time now too, but I can imagine they weren’t as set up for them as OOC was and will have slightly less knowledge than the GW crews - and is further away than the Oak was.

Oh yes I think that's been a factor. It was really noticeable that when OOC was looking after all fourteen during their second stint on GWR and whilst they were with HT they seemed to be able to get pretty decent performance out of them. Though even then there was some horse trading going on as it was unheard of for a GWR 180 to turn up on a HT service as clearly one of HTs units just wasn't available. But yeah their nomadic lifestyle clearly never helped them. If they'd spent their whole lives assigned to one depot they'd probably have a much better reputation. Though I reckon it would still have been fairly poor. As someone else noted there's a pair of 221s (contemporaries of the 180s) that are consistently running six days a week at the moment with GC and having very few problems...

 

[harz99]

I haven’t monitored the 180s’ recent performance but has it settled down? A year or so ago they seemed to fail regularly but I don’t recall reading about anything untoward over the past few months.
Is GC simply giving the units which aren’t diagrammed more TLC as a preventative measure?
Or am I being too optimistic??

They still have their issues and cancellations, also it is not uncommon for mid journey set swaps to be done at Doncaster or York to get a set back to Crofton for maintenance. I monitor them because the Sunderland service passes near my village and is one I use regularly.

I don't usually bother posting about 180 issues any more, as every time I have done so either the post gets moved and buried in Trips, or nobody is really interested (seemingly because GC is an open access operator it isn't worthy).

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If feels like quite a waste of limited capacity to be ordering 5 car trains, but fair enough if they are consistent in running them paired up from KX to Doncaster.

Could it be down to capacity constraints on the East Coast Mainline? By dividing and attaching at Doncaster they are effectively gaining an extra path by simply bolting on a new service to an already existing one.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Being an open access operator, how much will the DaFT have their fingers in the design and procurement of these trains?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Being an open access operator, how much will the DaFT have their fingers in the design and procurement of these trains?

None beyond that they must fit existing regulations.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You are correct about not being able to use a number that has already been allocated even if the build did not come to fruition for a set period of time, possibly 5 years?


This is to avoid any confusion with paperwork or data that might still be live. It is also the case nowadays that the unit number and carriage numbers tie up in that they all end in the same final digits. If the rolling stock library can not find a suitable selection of vacant numbers that tie up they will look for another selection, bearing in mind that the six-figure numbers being used now were freight stock numbers under BR and some of the batches may still be live. It only needs one number in a whole string to be still in use from a previous allocation to mess up the whole plan and the five-year rule applies to this too.

Doesn't seem to stop unit numbers duplicating individual car numbers though -
Class 385 DMS's in the 4440xx range
Class 717 DMS's in the 4560xx range
Class 720 DMS's in the 4501xx and 4505xx range

It may explain why they have jumped from 810 to 820 though, as the individual cars in calss 800s have numbers in the 81xxxx

 

[Sorcerer]

I must admit, I am surprised the TOPS designation became 820 rather than 804. I expect in future we'll have to start referring to the entire family as 8xx series rather than 80x series because we've not only gone into 810 territory but jumped to 820. Regardless I'd like to see what Grand Central comes up with since aside from meeting regulations they'll have a lot of freedom with interior design.

 

[YorksLad12]

I must admit, I am surprised the TOPS designation became 820 rather than 804. I expect in future we'll have to start referring to the entire family as 8xx series rather than 80x series because we've not only gone into 810 territory but jumped to 820. Regardless I'd like to see what Grand Central comes up with since aside from meeting regulations they'll have a lot of freedom with interior design.

I would have expected 809 if the platform is exactly the same. Until Avanti came along with their "805 for 5-car, 807 for 7-car" routine, even numbered classes were bi-mode, odd were electric only, so I'm glad in a way that they went for 820 rather than 809.

 

[stadler]

I would have expected 809 if the platform is exactly the same. Until Avanti came along with their "805 for 5-car, 807 for 7-car" routine, even numbered classes were bi-mode, odd were electric only, so I'm glad in a way that they went for 820 rather than 809.

The class 801 is a bi mode and is odd numbered. People always seem to forget that the class 801 are bi mode units. I doubt that odd numbers and even numbers of IET classes were intended to have anything to do with whether it was a bi mode or not.

 

[MboroFC]

British Rail Class 820 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Someone with Wikipedia knowledge get it fixed please

 

[superalbs]

Someone with Wikipedia knowledge get it fixed please

Done.

 

[YorksLad12]

The class 801 is a bi mode and is odd numbered. People always seem to forget that the class 801 are bi mode units. I doubt that odd numbers and even numbers of IET classes were intended to have anything to do with whether it was a bi mode or not.

801 is electric. It has a small diesel engine onboard, yes, but it isn’t a bi-mode in the way the 800 and 802 are.

 

[stadler]

801 is electric. It has a small diesel engine onboard, yes, but it isn’t a bi-mode in the way the 800 and 802 are.

Yes but it is still classified as a bi mode. The 801 just has one engine and the engine is less powerful and fuel tank is smaller compared to the 800 and 802 units. So it is only intended for short distances mainly in emergencies. The 801 is still a bi mode even if it does not normally operate in that mode.

 

[Sorcerer]

I would have expected 809 if the platform is exactly the same. Until Avanti came along with their "805 for 5-car, 807 for 7-car" routine, even numbered classes were bi-mode, odd were electric only, so I'm glad in a way that they went for 820 rather than 809.

I never noticed a particular pattern of even numbers being bi-mode and odd numbers being purely electric, but I think Avanti's idea makes perfect sense anyway. Perhaps the numbers between 810 and 820 will be dedicated to bi-mode and tri-mode units but admittedly I feel like they would've been a lot different in the past. As I understand it, Class 1xx is diesel while Class 2xx is diesel-electric. Today they'd probably both end up in the same hundred group.

Yes but it is still classified as a bi mode. The 801 just has one engine and the engine is less powerful and fuel tank is smaller compared to the 800 and 802 units. So it is only intended for short distances mainly in emergencies. The 801 is still a bi mode even if it does not normally operate in that mode.

I think this would depend on whether or not the 801s diesel engine works the same way as the 800s bi-mode engines. The 800 runs the same traction motors in both diesel and electric modes; the difference is mostly just how they are powered, being either through the overhead lines or diesel generators. If the 801s diesel engine meant for emergencies is separate than it's hardly a bi-mode unit (I'll leave it to the more informed members to confirm that).

 

[YorksLad12]

I think this would depend on whether or not the 801s diesel engine works the same way as the 800s bi-mode engines. The 800 runs the same traction motors in both diesel and electric modes; the difference is mostly just how they are powered, being either through the overhead lines or diesel generators. If the 801s diesel engine meant for emergencies is separate than it's hardly a bi-mode unit (I'll leave it to the more informed members to confirm that).

This is my point. They might have a diesel engine, but has a solo 801 done a run from London to Harrogate or Aberdeen, and kept to time?

 

[800001]

This is my point. They might have a diesel engine, but has a solo 801 done a run from London to Harrogate or Aberdeen, and kept to time?

No, and it never ever would.

 

[Snow1964]

I think this would depend on whether or not the 801s diesel engine works the same way as the 800s bi-mode engines. The 800 runs the same traction motors in both diesel and electric modes; the difference is mostly just how they are powered, being either through the overhead lines or diesel generators. If the 801s diesel engine meant for emergencies is separate than it's hardly a bi-mode unit (I'll leave it to the more informed members to confirm that).

This is more a definition of terminology question.

A bi-mode can operate normally in either mode
the 801 is really an electric unit with a low power auxiliary (diesel) mode, and as it is so limited in its diesel mode, not really correct to use term bimode which suggests 2 complete distinctive modes.

However what is a dictionary definition, and what gets used in common usage aren't always identical.

 

[Sorcerer]

This is more a definition of terminology question.

A bi-mode can operate normally in either mode
the 801 is really an electric unit with a low power auxiliary (diesel) mode, and as it is so limited in its diesel mode, not really correct to use term bimode which suggests 2 complete distinctive modes.

However what is a dictionary definition, and what gets used in common usage aren't always identical.

So on that basis I still think it's fairly reasonable to call an 801 an electric only unit with a low-power backup mode unlike the true bi-mode units.

 

[800001]

So on that basis I still think it's fairly reasonable to call an 801 an electric only unit with a low-power backup mode unlike the true bi-mode units.

In operational land at LNER it is classed as an electric unit.

 

[Sorcerer]

In operational land at LNER it is classed as an electric unit.

Well, who would I be to argue with a bi-mode who works alongside them.

(I'll get my coat)

 

[littledude]

The age old name of ‘small engine’ on an 801 still lives on. It isn’t small, it’s exactly the same engine as on an 800, it just so happens there’s only one of them - on car 2!

It’s perfectly capable of moving the train away from the wires, they’re used incredibly frequently on depots. You might not have the oomph of an 800, but it’ll certainly move the train!

I do agree, however, that calling them bi-mode is somewhat tenuous. What they are very capable of, and happens often (or did in previous timetables), is running paired with an 800 in a 10 car formation away from the wires. The 801 provides no traction power, but the GU provides full hotel power for the set, with the 800 providing all traction power in the form of a tractor unit. If you run an 801 on diesel, and request traction power, the unit sheds a lot of the hotel load, so things like catering won’t be usable.

 

[800001]

The age old name of ‘small engine’ on an 801 still lives on. It isn’t small, it’s exactly the same engine as on an 800, it just so happens there’s only one of them - on car 2!

It’s perfectly capable of moving the train away from the wires, they’re used incredibly frequently on depots. You might not have the oomph of an 800, but it’ll certainly move the train!

I do agree, however, that calling them bi-mode is somewhat tenuous. What they are very capable of, and happens often (or did in previous timetables), is running paired with an 800 in a 10 car formation away from the wires. The 801 provides no traction power, but the GU provides full hotel power for the set, with the 800 providing all traction power in the form of a tractor unit. If you run an 801 on diesel, and request traction power, the unit sheds a lot of the hotel load, so things like catering won’t be usable.

I've been on a 9 car 801 between Darlington and Northallerton where the unit was only operating on its 1 GU due to overhead line damage.
We achieved 48mph. Granted the line is flat with very few curves.

 

[Chris172]

For the people stating that 9 x 5 cars aren't enough to replace current stock, wouldn't journey times speed up with the use of electricity on most of the route up north.

How does the acceleration of a class 180 compare to a 800/802 (not including the 801 due to probably lighter with only one engine)

 

[43096]

For the people stating that 9 x 5 cars aren't enough to replace current stock, wouldn't journey times speed up with the use of electricity on most of the route up north.

How does the acceleration of a class 180 compare to a 800/802 (not including the 801 due to probably lighter with only one engine)

You are not going to get much of a performance benefit over a 180, if any, and certainly not enough to save a unit diagram.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

For the people stating that 9 x 5 cars aren't enough to replace current stock, wouldn't journey times speed up with the use of electricity on most of the route up north.

I doubt that would save them any units, especially with how few services they run.

 

[3RDGEN]

For the people stating that 9 x 5 cars aren't enough to replace current stock, wouldn't journey times speed up with the use of electricity on most of the route up north.

How does the acceleration of a class 180 compare to a 800/802 (not including the 801 due to probably lighter with only one engine)

There's only seven diagrams so nine units should be fine, of those diagrams there's one that does Bradford - London - Sunderland and another that's the reverse of that so those two are very low mileage diagrams. Journey times are unlikely to change much given the ECML timetable has only just been rewritten, the faster electric acceleration will likely be used to add more resilience to the service.

 

[Snow1964]

Been announced today that Turntide has began manufacturing the battery packs

Gateshead, U.K., July 15, 2026 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Turntide Technologies (Turntide), a global leader in electrification and hybridisation solutions and a long-standing North East manufacturer, received its first order from Hitachi Rail to begin production of its next-generation modular battery system for the first U.K.-manufactured battery trains for Arriva’s Grand Central.

First announced on July 2, 2025, this partnership involved an R&D component and has officially moved into production with the potential to support either new battery trains or retrofitting over 600 engines on existing Hitachi Rail U.K. fleets.

This new battery system will allow for lower cost of operations, extended range, and a path to zero-emission travel, while reducing reliance on fossil fuels and improving air quality and noise pollution. Turntide’s bespoke batteries are designed to deliver even greater power density in the same footprint of a diesel engine. This battery production is an advanced manufacturing milestone for Arriva’s Grand Central new fleet, which is being built in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham by Hitachi Rail.

This latest advancement in battery train technology follows a successful intercity trial which exceeded expectations in 2024. In a U.K.-first, the trial proved that Turntide’s battery system can be installed on Hitachi Rail trains to reduce fuel costs by 30% to 50% or deliver zero-emission travel in battery mode. This is especially important for improving air quality in and around stations that are not yet electrified.

North-East-Based Turntide Receives Initial Battery Production Order from Hitachi Rail for Arriva’s Grand Central Intercity UK Battery Trains

New batteries to enable greener train operations to remove over 600 engines on existing trains, offering lower cost of operations, more range, and path to...

www.globenewswire.com