Grand Central HSTs?

[me123]

I think it'll look really classy externally when it's all put together.

 

[Techniquest]

Plain livery, but does the job!

 

[Jordy]

Its alright, should look better with coaches though - much like the FGW MTU livery, looks boring on its own but good with coaches

 

[schmoo_smith]

nice to finally see the powercar! cant wait to go on it

 

[rail-britain]

nice to finally see the powercar! cant wait to go on it

It's a few years since I've been "on" a HST powercar, personally I prefer to be between them!

 

[schmoo_smith]

It's a few years since I've been "on" a HST powercar, personally I prefer to be between them!

haha fair point there, when i said "on it" i meant in the carriages

 

[Crompton Karl]

The Yellow ends are Tiny. I'm surprised that its enough yellow.

Karl

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

First one is at Heaton. We have got photos of it being unloaded.

 

[JB95]

The black livery looks good from a distance, but when up close you can see the ripples in the bodysides that billions of miles of track torture has put on these babies. Unfortunately black is probably one of the best colours to show this up. IMHO internally the finished product looks similar to the 'One' Anglia refurb Bombardier did on the Mk3s a year or two ago, in that there's a lot of 'retained items' and not much new kit going in there. In fact apart from a lick of paint and new carpets, toilet lino, and seat covers there's not much to shout about, just a standard Mk3 really, we could be in the mid-70's again! December is being bandied around as a finish for the fleet, but I'd save your money, its not likely to happen

 

[Pathfinder]

The black livery loks good from a distance, but when up close you can see the ripples in the bodysides that billions of miles of track torture has put on these babies. Unfortunately black is probably one of the best colours to show this up. IMHO internally the finished product looks similar to the 'One' Anglia refurb Bombardier did on the Mk3s a year or two ago, in that there's a lot of 'retained items' and not much new kit going in there. In fact apart from a lick of paint and new carpets, toilet lino, and seat covers there's not much to shout about, just a standard Mk3 really, we could be in the mid-70's again! December is being bandied around as a finish for the fleet, but I'd save your money, its not likely to happen

If as you say there is not much going in there and "items retained" etc,why the hell is it taking you lot so long then,is the work force working as in "the mid 70's" such as strikes and too many tea breaks etc ? :-x :-x

 

[schmoo_smith]

The black livery loks good from a distance, but when up close you can see the ripples in the bodysides that billions of miles of track torture has put on these babies. Unfortunately black is probably one of the best colours to show this up.

My exact thoughts JB95. I noticed that on fgw hst refurbs as well but not as bad. Would have been nice if they could have straightened them out a bit.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Precisely Pathfinder!! If there's "not a lot of work needed" then how the hell has it taken so long??

 

[djw1981]

Well if the first set is not yet finished, and has taken 2 months, then you would expect the other sets to be quicker (all the nuances having been learned from the first set), but not by that much. With Christmas effectively only 8 weeks away, that would require the other sets to take less than one month each, including testing.

There will of course have been work to the bodywork which may not be seen (being under the paint! Also the carriages may have been in poor mechanical condition and required work on the undersides and bogies, in addition to any electrical, plumbing and cosmetics work. I assume that CE Toilets will have also have been fitted.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I think you'll find it's been more than two months... (May to September is FOUR months!), and they've had them longer than that too...

 

[djw1981]

Exactly, so even if the other sets take only half as long as the first set, then 2 months would mean set 2 released just before Christmas etc....

 

[Pathfinder]

Exactly, so even if the other sets take only half as long as the first set, then 2 months would mean set 2 released just before Christmas etc....

yeah,but they way jb95 has come across in his post appears it to be later than december IMO. :-?

 

[djw1981]

Yes but that would still only give them 2 sets at Christmas at the earliest, and subsequent set would be February or later. Unless they spot hire 180's!

 

[Pathfinder]

Yes but that would still only give them 2 sets at Christmas at the earliest, and subsequent set would be February or later. Unless they spot hire 180's!

oh I'm starting to get a very bad feeling about this whole scenario,how can the launch date be imminent(as quoted by Ian Yeowart in last weeks local press) if there isn't anything ready aside from 2 badly painted power cars(which I've been told have already developed faults !!!) hock: hock:

 

[Donny Dave]

It's all very well arguing as to why the carriages are not ready yet, but when you consider there is a big shortage of 1 critical component (the major TOCs get first use of them), then the carriages can't be moved....

Would anyone like to guess as to which component I'm on about?

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Bogies. The original ones were only rated to 110mph as they were loco hauled, so they needed uprated bogies, and of course there aren't any! (or, no one wants to sell us any!)
Does anyone know the differences between the bogies? Are the HST ones beefier to cope with the increased loads with running at up to 125mph?

 

[JB95]

Happy to answer all questions with the information I have been given & gathered.

I hope you're all sitting comfortably? good, I'll begin

You probably all know this but Marcroft/ESG 'won' the original contract to refurb the 18 Mk3 coaches, with Marcroft as the 'lead' contractor, this followed on from a successful 'refurb' of Scotrail sleeper cars. Sounds impressive, but I'm led to believe this was an easy refurb, more like a top 'n' tail, anyway, I digress - Marcroft (now a subsidiary of EWS) have historically been a wagon maker/repairer, so this new venture into the field of coaching stock refurbs is to directly compete with the likes of Wabtec and therefore, is something new. Clearly, with lots of problems in ownership changes at GCR, no-one was sure whether or not Marcroft would get paid for the job, so things were left on the drawing board and at the top-level not much design/purchasing went on, but time did go by. As mentioned the wagon-bashers (not 'bashers' as in Neds or 'wagon' as in Class 44/45/46 - My Lords!! oops - age giveaway there) at Marcroft had a job to do but didn't possess the skill sets required.

Keeping it basic - Coaches need all "on-board services" just like a hotel does, so its Lighting, Air, Door Locking, Air Con, Toilets, Water, Heating, Restaurant cars and equipment blah blah.... Unfortunately Marcroft's own staff had only been trained and experienced in chassis (metal formers/workers/welders/platers), bogies (not the same type of bogies with spring sets and air-bag stuff that coaches need) and brakes. So they finally realised (after a struggle) that outside help (contractors) was needed in the way Alstom/Bombardier et al do when a new build or refurb is happening.

Unfortunately due to the timing of the labour requirement this too got off to a bad start with a lot of the 'pool' of Rail-biased dual skilled (mech/elec) contractor labour force being utilised elsewhere, such as Derby, Doncaster, Loughborough, Glasgow, Ilford etc etc, so they couldn't attract the staff they really needed. Coupled together with this, their own workforce are quite a union orientated lot and were very vocal when being expected to work alongside contractors doing similar work to them BUT getting paid more than twice as much, as I'm sure you Train Crew boys would admit being vocal if it was happening to you too! In short ESG (Engineering Support Group and part of EWS) took over in the 'lead' position of the running of the project and has now sub-contracted to recruitment agencies to get the more 'artisan' type contractors (mech/elec) in ASAP, but this too has also taken time.

Another problem is that because of the 'newness' to Marcroft of this whole refurb type business, certain 'long-lead' time parts failed to be ordered soon enough, indeed some parts won't be in until December this year to fully complete anything - my personal belief is that they may 'knife and fork' the first complete six coach set out by mid January, but on the 'up side' they do have two coaches 'almost' ready for a press shoot and visit taking place this week, I also believe a follow-on order by Arriva for 40 more Mk3s could go to Marcroft/ESG if the dignitaries like the look of these.

Facilities at the depot such as cleanliness of the units, shed location adjacent to other works (shared shed) leave a lot to be desired too, it sounds daft but you cannot work without it being 'right' in all areas. DJW is right in saying that speed should improve, but that will happen only when shop floor process control is working properly. By the way DJW, there is no mod to fit CE tanks on these coaches so the poo will still hit the track!! There are also NO bodyside repairs being undertaken, ripples & kinks remain in situ. FGW put brand new seats (including frames), window glass, draught screens, bodyside lights, luggage racks, toilets (pans/sinks) and coach lighting in their refurb, but alas GCR are leaving the old items in place

All in all everyone concerned is doing there level best to get the product out the door, but there have been a lot of problems along the way - and not all have been mentioned here either.

In terms of quality and looks, having worked on Mk4 GNER Mallard stock; Mk3 First Great Western and Mk3 'One' coaches - I would say that would be my order for Gold, Silver and Bronze, with I anticipate GCR a close 4th.

Bogies? Mk3 LHCS have BT10 Spec bogies rated to 110mph the conversion would require a change or upgrade to BT10B/C 125mph bogies, but an outside contractor is already dealing with this – I’m not sure if there are any problems in supply of these because my involvement was with ‘on site’ stuff.

The gun should be considered loaded but with a blank I think as I've tried to be as fair as I can to everybody here and not spread blame all over the place. I must say it feels good to be able to post on here to get a few things off my chest so to speak!! Thanks for reading

 

[37402]

Bogies? Mk3 LHCS have BT10 Spec bogies rated to 110mph the conversion would require a change or upgrade to BT10B/C 125mph bogies, but an outside contractor is already dealing with this – I’m not sure if there are any problems in supply of these because my involvement was with ‘on site’ stuff.

It's not that no one will sell GC any...there is a nationwide shortage of Mk3 bogies/wheelsets/associated equipment. The big TOC's are having to wait as well, although this wait is being shortened for them by the power of the ROSCO's.

 

[JB95]

37402, the funny thing is that no-one mentioned Bogies as a problem at Marcroft - I'm not sure of the Operational deal struck, but you could run with a 110mph restriction in place on the Power Cars - a bit like Pendolinos and Voyagers having a higher design speed than they actually do - I know the EC route is faster but it doesn't mean they have to do 125mph does it? Having said that I'm also unsure if its possible to uprate an existing BT10 to BT10B, if it is maybe the parts needed to upgrade them are available, so they have no problem - dunno about this one but as I say it wasn't mentioned as a problem

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

We were told that Marcroft 'won' the job on the back of the EWS Executive train. ie, the quality of the workmanship. So they must have had some experience somewhere along the line (sorry!) to have done the Exec train? Or did they sub contract that out and pass it off as their own work? (no offence meant to Marcroft guys, but if what JB95 has said is right, and what we have been told as to why they got the job is right, then there is something fishy going on)

Edit: to get approval for the route we had to have 125mph stock...

 

[Pathfinder]

jb95,that is one hell of a response,consider the gun unloaded sir,you may or not be aware but several GC staff do read this forum(along with management I'm led to believe) and they may find your post disturbing reading.Sir Clagalot,what do you make of all that then ? :???:

 

[JB95]

Sir Clag - I suspect you are right in what you write about Marcroft on the Exec Train, but as you say there is a conflict of interest there, we were told EWS would not favour Marcroft in any dealing but ESG has now come on the scene so read into that what you will. Approval for the route is one thing, operational speed is another - a bit like tilting trains that ran around for ages NOT tilting awaiting approval - worked on them sods too

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Interesting and worrying at the same time. Yes, Management do read threads, but only when we bring it to their attention. As far as I know, there are two of us registered on here (me and maybe_idontknow), and I know for a fact that others read the forum(s) (not just this forum either)

 

[JB95]

Pathfinder sir, I hope GC staff are reading with interest - As they are a 'new' TOC and freshmen to 'the game' they should really have what we in the trade call an 'on-site resident engineer', these engineers are posted by FGW, One Anglia or whoever's getting the stock built at the depot that's doing the work. They report back on ANY build problems, stock issues etc etc - so GC staff take note and welcome to the wonderful world of train building!! By the way I can be hired as a registered on-site engineer, please see my website blah blah blah

Course in the old BR days, GCR would have been part of BR as a TOC and able to ask Bombardier or Alstom or Wabtec, Maintrain or Siemens (who all would have also been BREL) as to how its done and had some help. Read my posts GCR it should help

 

[Pathfinder]

Pathfinder sir, I hope GC staff are reading with interest - As they are a 'new' TOC and freshmen to 'the game' they should really have what we in the trade call an 'on-site resident engineer', these engineers are posted by FGW, One Anglia or whoever's getting the stock built at the depot that's doing the work. They report back on ANY build problems, stock issues etc etc - so GC staff take note and welcome to the wonderful world of train building!! By the way I can be hired as a registered on-site engineer, please see my website blah blah blah

Course in the old BREL days, GCR would have been part of BREL and able to ask Bombardier or Alstom or Wabtec, Maintrain or Siemens (who all would have also been BREL) as to how its done and had some help. Read my posts GCR it should help

Sorry I meant GCR would have been part of BR TOC, but still BREL was a division of BR

They do have a fleet engineer,David Shipley,Sovereign Trains(GC's leasing company)Obviously he hasnt spent a lot of time down at Marcroft,LOL !!!!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

damn right we are!!hock: