Grand Central Discussion

[Metroland]

ANGRY passengers were left on the platform at York Station as train services to London were overwhelmed with bank holiday travellers.

Yesterday’s 14.08 from Sunderland to Kings Cross, run by Grand Central, was described as being similar to the London Underground at rush hour, with passengers jostling for standing room.

The Press’s video journalist, David Dunning, was one of those who tried to board the train but, fearing for his safety, decided to wait for the next service.

He said it took almost ten minutes to get the people waiting at York on board, though many were left behind because the carriages were packed.

“Every seat was taken and every spare inch of floor was occupied,” he said.

“It looked like it was going on a journey from Hell. Two hours at over 100mph; packed like sardines in a tin. “They could hardly shut the doors, and passengers left behind were complaining and getting very upset.” Another London-bound passenger said: “I’d be mad to get on that train – what would happen if there was an accident?”

The Press was unable to obtain a comment from Grand Central yesterday.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/7985891.York_rail_passengers____fury_over_service/

 

[paul_l]

I was on this train yesterday from Eaglescliffe. It was one of the Class 180s and every seat in standard appeared to be reserved, apart from half of coach B. There were already people standing from Thirsk, and from York it was packed, with people standing right the way down the coach I was on.

It was similar a few weeks ago on the only Sunday train that went through to Kings Cross.

I would guess it's due to the number of people holding non-advance tickets looking to get back to London after the Easter weekend.

I'm not sure what they could do about this, other than make it reservation compulsory, but then they would presumably need extra staff at every door to enforce this.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

one of the benefits of GC is the 'walk on' fares not being ridiculously expensive to encourage travel. GC are not the only TOC to have full trains!! Ive seen East Coasts full and standing before. Difference is, they have another one along in half an hour!
The decision by BR to go to a 'unit' railway rather than loco hauled has left us with trains that cannot be strengthened, unless you couple two or more units together, which then means you need extra crews etc. Loco hauled rake you stick extra coaches on the end and the same crew can still cover all the train!

 

[Lampshade]

Jesus, I didn't think GC expected that when they started up

Do they still refund half the ticket price if a passenger has to stand?

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm presuming this is the 1408 departure from York (1230 ex Sunderland) ....

The GC is completely wedged, while the Highland Chieftain which leaves York at 1354 is not even mentioned. I doubt a full trainload of passengers arrived at York in just 14 minutes. For those who were left behind, there was only another 18 minutes to wait for another East Coast train to London as well.

 

[Capybara]

I use GC quite a lot but, from the experience of others, not at holiday times as I have heard of this type of thing happening before. To be fair to GC they have announced to those travelling north on a weekend when the last train on the Sunday is going to be full and advised not to use it without a reservation. This has normally been when there have been engineering works and the last Sunday train is the only one travelling right through on the Sunday. They are warning the same next weekend.

Having said that, I know people who experienced exactly the same problem as those travelling from York last Easter so the company has had plenty of time to get its act together. But, saying that, as a previous poster said, one of the great attractions of GC is that they advertise a decent walk-on fare (which is why I use them) and so you do have a reasonable expectation to be able to walk on. How this squares with having a reservation system, I don't know.

 

[robertclark125]

The other issue here is that as GC offer walk on fares, it then can't limit the amount, in theory. My concern here is for those with reservations, who then couldn't get on the train, if that happened.

I know it seems inconvenient for the paying passenger, but perhaps GC need to look at not offering walk on fares (except at unstaffed statrions) during such times.

 

[yorkie]

I know it seems inconvenient for the paying passenger, but perhaps GC need to look at not offering walk on fares (except at unstaffed statrions) during such times.

The problem is nothing to do with GC. It's an industry-wide problem that there is nowhere near enough capacity provided on IC-type services on popular long distance flows on Bank Holiday weekends, and this is often compounded by engineering works. Refusing to sell tickets on board (free trip to London then for anyone who manages to get on at York?) is not the solution!

As for the person who said “I’d be mad to get on that train – what would happen if there was an accident?” you would be equally "mad" to ever get in any road vehicle.

 

[GNERman]

would alstom be willing to make extra 180 cars?

 

[Aictos]

I've got a better idea why not just use top and tail LHCS then you can lengthen sets as demand requires,

Still if Alstorm were willing to build extra coaches, how long would we be looking at to extend them? 6 cars, 8 cars, 9 cars?

 

[GNERman]

you could do lhcs although it would be expensive...

gc's paths are only for under 7 coach trains, due to track timings and that places like thirsk cannot hold anymore...

 

[Aictos]

Yes but don't the 180s have a nifty feature called SDO?

 

[142094]

When Eaglescliffe station platform used to be shorter, GC HSTs always used selected door opening, and they are doing the same at Hartlepool with the work to the station still ongoing. TPE sometimes have to do this at Thirsk when they have a 2x 185 on some workings. So lengthening trains, if they can get hold of stock, shouldn't be that much of a problem.

 

[robertclark125]

As for the person who said “I’d be mad to get on that train – what would happen if there was an accident?” you would be equally "mad" to ever get in any road vehicle.

Agree with you there Yorkie. In fact, isn't going by train safer than going by car?

Getting back to the topic, one possible solution may be for alstom to make 180 coaches, but only for hire, in their own livery. Sure, they'd look different to the rest iof the set, but so did many trains in the mid 1980s as the sector liveries began to get introduced. As long as there are more seats, who cares if the train livery doesn't match?

 

[Aictos]

What exactly is going on at Hartlepool? I know there's 3 platforms of which one doesn't seem to be in use, one bay and one though platform.

Still, I'm sure Alstom could very well build a second batch of 180s ie 180/2s which would be the longer sets in their livery and then just have the operator place their name in the middle of the train like Central Trains did with 170399.

Only problem is if the jigs have been disposed of then would Alstom want to reopen the factory line even if there was a strong chance of getting the order, I mean look at the 390s as they were getting extra coaches and now some of them are staying as 9 car long as opposed to 11 car long, would have made economic sense to have them all as 11 cars but that's for another discussion...

 

[142094]

Hartlepool only has two platforms in use, one through and one bay. The other through hasn't been in use for at least 20 years, and the bay is only used for passenger services on a Sunday. At the minute there is a new transport interchange being built, and the roof of the station is being renewed. So part of the platform has to be closed, and GC services have to have selective door operation.

 

[MCR247]

Still, I'm sure Alstom could very well build a second batch of 180s ie 180/2s which would be the longer sets in their livery and then just have the operator place their name in the middle of the train like Central Trains did with 170399.

I think you mean 397 & 398 as 399 was in the Matlock Line livery for quite a while

 

[Aictos]

I think you mean 397 & 398 as 399 was in the Matlock Line livery for quite a while

170397 and 170398 were 3 car 170s available for spot hire and painted in the Porterbrook livery of of white and purple doors, 170399 was the 2 car version in the same livery.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

When Eaglescliffe station platform used to be shorter, GC HSTs always used selected door opening, and they are doing the same at Hartlepool with the work to the station still ongoing.

Erm, you sure about that... Think you will find every door can be opened on the platform side...

 

[royaloak]

Nobody is going to build trains for spot hire, everyone going on about it as if it is done all the time is deluding themselves. 99% of the stock in use is allocated by the DafT and no franchisee is going to take on extra stock without DafT approval.
GC need extra coaches maybe a dozen days a year, what do they do with them the rest of the year, and don't say hire them to somebody else (see above) also if GC need the extra coaches on these days you can bet the other party would as well.
Until a LOT of new stock is built to set up a cascade we are effectively stuck where we are, but when the 1300 coaches the government have ordered get delivered we are sorted, what they haven't ordered them yet, oh what a surprise :roll:

 

[MCR247]

170397 and 170398 were 3 car 170s available for spot hire and painted in the Porterbrook livery of of white and purple doors, 170399 was the 2 car version in the same livery.

It was also in http://www.railrovers.org.uk/images/rails4/170399ely.jpg

 

[142094]

Erm, you sure about that... Think you will find every door can be opened on the platform side...

Very sure, before the platform at Eaglescliffe was lengthened, the guard made an announcement to people getting off that they had to use the doors towards the front and middle of the train. There were even signs there on the platform telling people to move along in the train. It has been the same at Hartlepool due to the renewal of the roof, with part of the train going beyond the useable part of the platform. Whether the doors are actually locked out of use I'm not sure but I'm sure I've seen it done a few times.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Yes we make (made) announcements, but I can assure you SDO is not used, and nor is it fitted to the HSTs at the moment!! I should know, I work for GC!:roll:

 

[BOSCH]

I'm presuming this is the 1408 departure from York (1230 ex Sunderland) ....

The GC is completely wedged, while the Highland Chieftain which leaves York at 1354 is not even mentioned. I doubt a full trainload of passengers arrived at York in just 14 minutes. For those who were left behind, there was only another 18 minutes to wait for another East Coast train to London as well.

David,the media never let the facts get in the way of a "good story" do they !!!

 

[142094]

Yes we make (made) announcements, but I can assure you SDO is not used, and nor is it fitted to the HSTs at the moment!! I should know, I work for GC!:roll:

I probably shouldn't have said SDO, and should have said 'selected doors were locked out of use' or 'were not in use'. And yes I have seen doors at Eaglescliffe locked out of use before when the platform was shorter.

 

[MCR247]

How could they be locked out of use if there is no SDO? They would still be unlocked wouldn't they? Thats what EMT do

 

[tbtc]

Nobody is going to build trains for spot hire, everyone going on about it as if it is done all the time is deluding themselves. 99% of the stock in use is allocated by the DafT and no franchisee is going to take on extra stock without DafT approval

True, and my head says you're right...

...however you could also argue that 99% of stock is being used, meaning that there's a demand for any units out there - "spot hire" units like the Central Trains/ Porterbrook 170s.

I know it sounds naive, but I'd put money on any generic unit (e.g. a run of further 172s) being snapped up by some TOC. Just my optimism...

 

[BOSCH]

How could they be locked out of use if there is no SDO? They would still be unlocked wouldn't they? Thats what EMT do

Can I just put this to bed please ?? GC HST's DO NOT have SDO,the 180's do have it but it is NEVER used.Where there is a short platform in the GC stopping pattern then the passengers wishing to alight at these platforms are advised to move to the correct coaches to do so ! Thank You

 

[GNERman]

hey bosch, any reason why 180107 was coming down from springburn down to heaton? she must be fixed so, what, refurbed?

 

[142094]

How could they be locked out of use if there is no SDO? They would still be unlocked wouldn't they? Thats what EMT do

Using a T key and the lock at the top of the carriage door. Just like any other door can be locked out of use. Yes there is no SDO on the HSTs but doors can be locked out of use.