on a liverpool train today and two lads asked me why i was taking photos and i explained and they named this forum as one of their top sites for graffiti vandals to find information about depots,running times and pretty much everything..i really didnt know what to say but theres NOTHING you can do about it is there?these two were blatantly pointing out names n whos who along the lines.shocking really.is there nothing you can do about them using this site to help them in their vandalism of rail property?i didnt think they were that clever!
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graffiti 'artists'
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How exactly can you stop them?
These people are mainly opportunists who see a few wagons/trains parked up in a siding and spray a few things on it.
I did see a memo from Network Rail today that warned against removing a new type of 'chemical graffiti' which is acid/nitrate based, apparently kids are using 'redesigned' bingo markers with it in and the graffiti is etched into the unit! Some pictures of pretty nasty burns that people have received from trying to remove it with water!!
These people are mainly opportunists who see a few wagons/trains parked up in a siding and spray a few things on it.
I did see a memo from Network Rail today that warned against removing a new type of 'chemical graffiti' which is acid/nitrate based, apparently kids are using 'redesigned' bingo markers with it in and the graffiti is etched into the unit! Some pictures of pretty nasty burns that people have received from trying to remove it with water!!
This has been going on for years on London Underground - the Bakerloo line was quite bad for it a while ago. It's pretty nasty stuff but instantly recognisable when you see it on windows.
With regards to the OP; I doubt what is being said here - there is very little (if any) kind of information here that would be of any use to anyone. Think you have your wires crossed!
37401
Established Member
Blimey, did you report them? im sure everyone who has been to London has seen "TOX"
£100k+ worth of damages over the years, im yet for find a terminus in London that does not have TOX somewhere along the line
£100k+ worth of damages over the years, im yet for find a terminus in London that does not have TOX somewhere along the line
37401
Established Member
The BTP based on the LU Network have an Anti-graffiti squad, they have lots of files on these "tags" TOX being the biggest one, he was convicted but ive seen TOX 08 so he was about last year.
Its hard to get the details of those who do it because they are very security aware and where they tag once they wont tag again. Its very hard finding them but the best thing to do is take a pic or video and imform staff ASAP
Its hard to get the details of those who do it because they are very security aware and where they tag once they wont tag again. Its very hard finding them but the best thing to do is take a pic or video and imform staff ASAP
The problem with TOX is that he has copycats 
In short, there is no way of stopping people using this website for information relating to their intentions of vandalising equipment. It's a free, public website, viewable without registering... so there's nothing you can do.
In short, there is no way of stopping people using this website for information relating to their intentions of vandalising equipment. It's a free, public website, viewable without registering... so there's nothing you can do.
37401
Established Member
Aye true its just proving it, hoping to work for LUL myself and wouldnt mind meeting one of these taggers just too see then go down for it
Drsatan
Established Member
Talking about this "TOX" guy last year I was on a train from Cologne to Chur (train started at Hamburg) approaching Zurich. On the lineside walls I noticed the same "Tox" tags. Don't tell me he's travelled all the way to Switzerland just to spray tags?!
90019
Established Member
TOX is a massive thing, it's everywhere, there are even a few round here in Edinburgh.
Thats the thing with taggers tho.. once its a familiar tag, it doesnt matter "who" does it. Its copiable.
Hell, back in my home town when I was at school we had "Doc Doc" 94,95,96,97 each was ever so slightly different... so either Doc Doc's drawings and spraywriting evolved, or "he" became different folk... and I would bet my pennies on the latter rather than the former.
Hell, back in my home town when I was at school we had "Doc Doc" 94,95,96,97 each was ever so slightly different... so either Doc Doc's drawings and spraywriting evolved, or "he" became different folk... and I would bet my pennies on the latter rather than the former.
class377man
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He's still about unfortunately, I saw TOX09 the other day. I think it was between Kentish Town and St Pancras.
Yeah, the "wall" beside the track has it on, all the way down to the KX tunnel as well. When travelling through London I noticed it all the way to London Bridge (through the thameslin route) as well. I know there's a youtube video on it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNSexu4CNII
Aussie_Rail
Member
Well, Graffiti is not art, its a crime. Graffiti vandalism costs 300million dollars a year in Australia, highlighting the seriousness of the issue. People might think its quite harmless, but when business and home owners are repeatedly having it removed the costs soon add up and it no longer becomes a laughing matter.
Transport operators pay millions of dollars every year in graffiti removal, and its the passengers that suffer as when a train is vandalised it needs to be taken out of service to be cleaned and therefore a train service is canceled.
In Victoria, particularly Melbourne we get vandals come over from interstate and in some cases overseas to vandalise trains. So in 2007 the Department of Justice introduced the 'Graffiti Prevention Act 2007', which imposed on the spot fines of $AUD550 for carrying a graffiti instrument and fines up $AUD26,000 if caught vandalising something, as well as 2 year jail sentences etc.
In Victoria graffiti is defined as "something that cannot be removed with a dry cloth" Which pretty much sums it up.
Connex, who operate Melbourne's trains have a 24 hour policy where graffiti will be removed within 24hours when reported.
I am one of Melbourne's anti-graffiti Nazis where I am always sending emails off to various organisations requesting that graffiti be removed from places I see it exist, which actually works in some cases. As well as flaming graffiti videos on youtube constantly which really really annoys them.
Feel free to join a facebook group "Society Against Graffiti (SAG)" which I created a while back.
Transport operators pay millions of dollars every year in graffiti removal, and its the passengers that suffer as when a train is vandalised it needs to be taken out of service to be cleaned and therefore a train service is canceled.
In Victoria, particularly Melbourne we get vandals come over from interstate and in some cases overseas to vandalise trains. So in 2007 the Department of Justice introduced the 'Graffiti Prevention Act 2007', which imposed on the spot fines of $AUD550 for carrying a graffiti instrument and fines up $AUD26,000 if caught vandalising something, as well as 2 year jail sentences etc.
In Victoria graffiti is defined as "something that cannot be removed with a dry cloth" Which pretty much sums it up.
Connex, who operate Melbourne's trains have a 24 hour policy where graffiti will be removed within 24hours when reported.
I am one of Melbourne's anti-graffiti Nazis where I am always sending emails off to various organisations requesting that graffiti be removed from places I see it exist, which actually works in some cases. As well as flaming graffiti videos on youtube constantly which really really annoys them.
Feel free to join a facebook group "Society Against Graffiti (SAG)" which I created a while back.
ungreat
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The only way to stop anyone getting info from this site is to ban guest viewing.
Although I haven't seen much on here that would be useful to said "artists" so it would probably be pointless.
Although I haven't seen much on here that would be useful to said "artists" so it would probably be pointless.
If they don't get the info from here they can get it elsewhere, enthusiasts are all over the place when we do a loco change so if they can get the info from elsewhere so can the criminals
Aussie_Rail
Member
Your average vandal will usually strike when they get a moment to. The train can be in service, quiet time of the day, near or empty carriage and they can go to town in it. Viewing information about railways on forums like this would not help them in a huge way, and its not likely that they will gain much from these type of sites anyway.
Then you get the sort that like to tag the outsides, normally a bit hard when the train is in service so they are your types that will target stabling areas, sidings etc.
And then you get the types that like to 'bomb' which in chav terms means to apply lots and lots of their crime to one area.
Vandals like this come in all shapes and sizes, areas and different backgrounds. Some common similarities are that they are into graphic design, or that type of thing as well as urban type music and might be part of a gang or close knit group of friends who all have the same interests.
Vandals like the exposure it brings, being able to see their handy work from a high profile place, like a wall that over looks a FWY or the side of a train. Its about having an identity that can be recognised when ever seem, like a logo or a trade mark.
That's why most graffiti is done in places where it will be seen by the most people, like on a rail corridor or on a train etc, as well as so that their friends and other like minded people will see too. But any fool can apply paint to a wall, its about it staying there the longest that counts, hence why you see it applied in places that are hard to reach at the best of time and you wonder the hell did they get up there etc.
There are only a few things to do to prevent it from happening. You can't stop it all together, at least in this and the next few generations. The following are what you can do.
These are just some things can be done to prevent graffiti, some can be applied now, others might take a long time, but any effort put into preventing it is still a good thing.
Then you get the sort that like to tag the outsides, normally a bit hard when the train is in service so they are your types that will target stabling areas, sidings etc.
And then you get the types that like to 'bomb' which in chav terms means to apply lots and lots of their crime to one area.
Vandals like this come in all shapes and sizes, areas and different backgrounds. Some common similarities are that they are into graphic design, or that type of thing as well as urban type music and might be part of a gang or close knit group of friends who all have the same interests.
Vandals like the exposure it brings, being able to see their handy work from a high profile place, like a wall that over looks a FWY or the side of a train. Its about having an identity that can be recognised when ever seem, like a logo or a trade mark.
That's why most graffiti is done in places where it will be seen by the most people, like on a rail corridor or on a train etc, as well as so that their friends and other like minded people will see too. But any fool can apply paint to a wall, its about it staying there the longest that counts, hence why you see it applied in places that are hard to reach at the best of time and you wonder the hell did they get up there etc.
There are only a few things to do to prevent it from happening. You can't stop it all together, at least in this and the next few generations. The following are what you can do.
- One thing to do is eradicate existing graffiti. Some graffiti can remain seen for years, some over 10-15 years old. Painting over graffiti will reduce the likely hood of it occurring again.
- Establish programs to maintain areas and have a prompt response to remove it.
- Remove graffiti along rail and transport corridors. Young minds see this from the train and develop an interest in it. Thats how easy someone can get into that sort of thing.
- Early education about how uncool it is, can work if applied in the right way. For a young guy to see that its cool to have a 'tag' will most likely follow like sheep and be an offender also.
- Restrict sales of popular graffiti items, spray cans, thick markers etc. In Victoria you need to be over 18 and show ID when purchasing spray cans.
- Give Councils more powers and funding to maintain areas that are prone to graffiti.
- Develop areas into 'graffiti proof' bare fences are a magnet for graffiti, but if thick evergreen vegetation runs along a fence line, then it will not get tagged. Money saved.
- Make smooth flat surfaces less desirable by applying either corrugated surfaces or ones that make it difficult to spray on, like a rock type surface.
- Restricting access to rail corridors where possible.
- Improved lighting and more people friendly areas also prevent graffiti, no one will tag something if there are people about in an area with bright lighting.
- Stricter penalties for repeat offenders, putting offenders on Court ordered clean up programs has proven to have an impact on repeat offenders.
- Youth programs in low socioeconomic programs to reduce young kids turning to crime as a form of entertainment.
- More responsibilities from parents where offenders are under aged and cannot be tried for crimes they have committed.
- Better reporting systems for people report graffiti, an 'anti-hooning' hot line in Australia has proved to be very successful in reducing dangerous driving in residential areas, a similar scheme can be used to report graffiti so that removal can be done faster.
- Improved support for residents and local businesses from Councils where graffiti removal kits can be obtained, paint vouches etc can be given to help lower the cost to owners.
These are just some things can be done to prevent graffiti, some can be applied now, others might take a long time, but any effort put into preventing it is still a good thing.
SouthEastern-465
Established Member
I have a mixed view on this.
But on one hand I think there a graffiti artists which are genuine and are not vandals and are serious about there work and are very good at it and make some ncie pieces of art (some of you may not agree).
But on the other hand there are those chavs who view forums like this (hello if your viewing because you will likely get killed) and look for good hotspots,and put there so called "Tags" Down,and cost the tax payer money.
Regards
But on one hand I think there a graffiti artists which are genuine and are not vandals and are serious about there work and are very good at it and make some ncie pieces of art (some of you may not agree).
But on the other hand there are those chavs who view forums like this (hello if your viewing because you will likely get killed) and look for good hotspots,and put there so called "Tags" Down,and cost the tax payer money.
Regards
Aussie_Rail
Member
Being such a hard line critic of graffiti, I can also make the point that there is some great art and talent out there, unfortunately there are those that choose to express it in all the wrong ways, or choose to express their talent in the wrong way also.
In most cases it is the mindless tagging that has given graffiti a bad name, if it were purely the wonderful artistic and colorful murals that exist (done properly with consent from the surface owner in a legal place) , then perhaps graffiti might not be such an issue that costs millions a year to clean.
I think anyone could come on here and get information from us
'Where is the best depot'
'Any unmanned Stations'
just that sort of stuff then they can use that to plan their route around, they don't have to ask a direct question for it.
'Where is the best depot'
'Any unmanned Stations'
just that sort of stuff then they can use that to plan their route around, they don't have to ask a direct question for it.
Dennis
Established Member
Route crime costs railways (NR and TOCs) £265 million per year - that is the equivalent of about 13p for every journey made. Think of it as subsidising the activities of ar$eholes who might be endangering their lives.
Aussie_Rail - the measures described, do you think they have any effect on the amount of graffiti? In the UK, the amount just seems to have grown and grown for the last 30 years and in some parts of larger cities I'm surprised when I actually see something not coverered in scrawl. In most cases on permanent structures, the 'artists' handiwork is hardly noticeable amongst all the other ****e, don't know why half of them even bother.
Aussie_Rail - the measures described, do you think they have any effect on the amount of graffiti? In the UK, the amount just seems to have grown and grown for the last 30 years and in some parts of larger cities I'm surprised when I actually see something not coverered in scrawl. In most cases on permanent structures, the 'artists' handiwork is hardly noticeable amongst all the other ****e, don't know why half of them even bother.
Aussie_Rail
Member
Well, I believe that those measures I listed will have some sort of effect somewhere, they may not always be effective everywhere, although you can never say they wont work unless they are tested.
A wall that is covered with graffiti will always attract more graffiti like you have mentioned above because the vandals can see that it has not been cleaned, so it will always be repeatedly tagged because they know it wont get cleaned. A wall that is well maintained will become less of a target and easier to maintain in the long run.
TrainBrain185
Member
There will never be enough "legal" space for graffiti artists. The morons who apply it are not talented, their vandalism is a mess. Graffiti degenerates the area where it's applied.
No mitigation should be given to these mindless, brainless idiots who gets a kick out of such exploits.
Aussie_Rail
Member
I do agree with you 100% there. When I referred to legal place, I meant it in the context that someone as sort permission to put up a legitimate mural, usually depicting a heritage scene of a local area or something on those lines, rather than the sort of mural you might see along a rail corridor.
Areas that have been designated for graffiti, like graffiti zones etc are outrageous and show a poor stance from the Government/Council that they are not taking the issue seriously when on one hand they spend money cleaning it up and trying to deter vandalism then on the other hand they spend money on areas encouraging graffiti, its a disgrace. There should not be any 'graffiti zones' full stop.
What they need to do is increase harsher penalties, and actually enforce them as well as commit to clean up programs and regular maintenance of areas and show people that graffiti will not be tolerated.
SouthEastern-465
Established Member
I dont agree.
The professional graffiti artists are not "Chavs" or "Vandals" they are just doing there hobby which they like and proffesional Graffiti artists do not use trains busses or lorrys for there artwork to be on.
Graffiti artists are doing a hobby,like we like trains they like painting from a cann so whats the problem?
In my opinion there are two types a graffiti theres the ones which "Chavs" do which cost everyone money and are called "Tags" where the make a stupid "Name" for there self and spread it everywhere.
But the other type of graffiti which is not really graffiti but is named that because the artist using it is using paint out of a cann,which equally make the same artwork as a brush if an expert is using it.
Regards
Aictos
Established Member
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Graffiti artists who like to put their childish tags everywhere should be made to take it off using basic equipment and to charge them £13,352 each time they get caught!
They will soon get fed up of having to pay to have their "art" removed plus have their criminal record growing and growing each time.
I'm fed up of seeing the stuff on trains, it's not nice and is childish - I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I went to their places and decided to graffiti their homes inside and out, however saying that they probably wouldn't notice!
Travelling on trains covered in the stuff is urgg, it's not nice for the passengers to be travelling on affected trains and it's not nice expecting the staff to keep cleaning up after them which means the trains from time to time have to come out of service to be cleaned which means cancelled services for the passenger.
They will soon get fed up of having to pay to have their "art" removed plus have their criminal record growing and growing each time.
I'm fed up of seeing the stuff on trains, it's not nice and is childish - I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I went to their places and decided to graffiti their homes inside and out, however saying that they probably wouldn't notice!
Travelling on trains covered in the stuff is urgg, it's not nice for the passengers to be travelling on affected trains and it's not nice expecting the staff to keep cleaning up after them which means the trains from time to time have to come out of service to be cleaned which means cancelled services for the passenger.
Aussie_Rail
Member
I actually disagree with that, the mindless tagging is what I hate most, but then those that do the 'murals' and not the 'community/artistic type' are also the same people that do the mindless tagging anyway.
The murals are like their 'main piece', depending on its size and level of complicity a lot of money and time goes into them, and they are still done illegally, some poor sap has to paint over it and that's why its graffiti because that's exactly what it is.
Graffiti is generally defined as a "marking of property by either painted, scribbled or scratched that is not their own, nor without permission". And the state of Victoria defines graffiti as something applied on a surface that cannot be removed with a dry cloth.
So on that basis, whether its a mural, a tag or a scratching on a window, it is still graffiti and it is still illegal. No matter how pretty or brilliant it might look.
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