Government Spending Review

[swt_passenger]

They may just be talking about things generally. I suspect we'll hear a lot more tomorrow.

There are a few precedents for announcements being 'geographically challenged'. I remember it took months for them to clarify that 'Manchester to Leeds electrification' (for TPE North) really meant Manchester to York - and wasn't the flimsy excuse that they thought people didn't realise where York was?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think its resource budgets, i.e. revenue spending, those funds available for TOC investment through lower franchise payments and direct subsidy, cutting just the administratives resources of the Dft would be nowhere near a 9% cut to the department overall. For instance the 'resource budget of the MOD' was 'frozen' at £24bn, not sure you believe even the MOD spends £24bn a year on administration.

Yep here we go in the figures Dft Revenue budget cut from £3.5bn to £3.2bn a £300m 9.3% cut, Capital budget increased from £8.9 to £9.5bn a £600m 5.5% rise. Net change from 2014/15 to 2015/16 to transport a £300m 3.2% rise.

Edit3: Administration budget of the Dft is £235m per year.

Edit4: HS2 contingency doubled from roughly £6bn to £12bn , £3bn on each phase.

Yes indeed, I was wrong.
So that would seem to require tougher re-franchising deals with the TOCs and/or a smaller direct grant to NR (for maintenance), but more capital for projects.
To me the likely outcome is for rolling stock growth will be cut back (more, but not as much as we thought) in order to keep TOC subsidy in check.


Edit:
Danny Alexander seems to have announced: Trafford Metrolink; Oxenholme-Windermere and Gospel Oak-Barking electrification.
And a lot of road projects.

Edit 2:
This is the rail meat of the speech (other than about HS2):

And the Honorable Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale will be pleased to hear that network rail are conducting a feasibility study into electrifying the Lakes line between Oxenholme and Windermere.
They are going one better in London, and from 2015, we will fund Network Rail to begin work on electrifying the line that connects Gospel Oak and Barking.
Nowhere is fast commuter transport more important for our economy than London, and our investment in Crossrail will support over 120 000 additional peak time commuters every day.
The government is committing £2 million to support a funding and financing study into Crossrail 2.
The challenge for the Mayor of London now, is to determine how at least half of the cost of the scheme can be met through private sources, ensuring that it will be affordable to the UK taxpayer

Actually only Goblin is an unconditional go-ahead.

 

[northwichcat]

Danny Alexander seems to have announced: Trafford Metrolink; Oxenholme-Windermere and Gospel Oak-Barking electrification.

That needs to be quoted in context:

And the Honorable Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale will be pleased to hear that network rail are conducting a feasibility study into electrifying the Lakes line between Oxenholme and Windermere.

So Network Rail are to look at it rather than it is going to happen. Gospel Oak to Barking has been confirmed with DfT offering at least some of the funding needed.

 

[SGS]

Gospel Oak to Barking has been confirmed with DfT offering at least some of the funding needed.

£115m apparently. Also, some West Anglia services are to be placed under TfL control by the end of 2015.

Stuart.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

 

[fgwrich]

Is there anywhere where I can see the announcement in full? links wise?

 

[SGS]

PDF to download here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investing-in-britains-future


Stuart.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartstransport

 

[trainfanatic]

Just come across this on the BBC News website. It can't be right surely?

East Midlands

Quote - A new electrified passenger and freight corridor linking the core centres of population and business in Yorkshire and the Midlands with ports in the south of England - Unquote

 

[DeeGee]

Oxenholme - Windermere?

Oh good, that's a strategically important line. Well done!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just come across this on the BBC News website. It can't be right surely?

East Midlands

Quote - A new electrified passenger and freight corridor linking the core centres of population and business in Yorkshire and the Midlands with ports in the south of England - Unquote

Isn't that Midland Mainline and Thameslink?

 

[tbtc]

Oxenholme - Windermere?

Oh good, that's a strategically important line. Well done!

Its a very short single track branch that is going to be virtually the only diesel line in that neck of the woods (at the moment Oxenholme sees diesel Voyagers and diesel 185s, but both will be replaced by EMUs later this decade), so should be a fairly cheap and logical bit of line to electrify.

At the moment it takes up a 185 which is a complete waste of resources (though, like the Lymington line, possibly the "least bad" option).

I'd rather that we tackled infills like Windmere if they have better cost/benefit ratios than grandiose schemes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Its a very short single track branch that is going to be virtually the only diesel line in that neck of the woods (at the moment Oxenholme sees diesel Voyagers and diesel 185s, but both will be replaced by EMUs later this decade), so should be a fairly cheap and logical bit of line to electrify.

At the moment it takes up a 185 which is a complete waste of resources (though, like the Lymington line, possibly the "least bad" option).

I'd rather that we tackled infills like Windmere if they have better cost/benefit ratios than grandiose schemes.

Agreed - makes a lot of sense if only for releasing a somewhat heavy and expensive 185 to make better use elsewhere.

It was very nearly done under BR for (I recall) a mere £300K

 

[tbtc]

Agreed - makes a lot of sense if only for releasing a somewhat heavy and expensive 185 to make better use elsewhere.

It was very nearly done under BR for (I recall) a mere £300K

I'm sure they'd bite your hand off for that kind of cost today.

Metaphorically!

 

[sprinterguy]

Just come across this on the BBC News website. It can't be right surely?

East Midlands

Quote - A new electrified passenger and freight corridor linking the core centres of population and business in Yorkshire and the Midlands with ports in the south of England - Unquote

It's referring to the "Electric Spine" from Southampton. The BBC have lifted the description almost word for word from the description of the route in the main DfT document.

 

[trainfanatic]

Ahhh thanks. I thought the East Midlands were about to be dragged into the 20th Century for a minute.

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed - makes a lot of sense if only for releasing a somewhat heavy and expensive 185 to make better use elsewhere.

It was very nearly done under BR for (I recall) a mere £300K

I'm sure they'd bite your hand off for that kind of cost today.

Metaphorically!

To what standard though? The electrification of the ECML was done cheaply but that directly causes more disruption due to OHE problems than it would have done if more had been invested in it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its a very short single track branch that is going to be virtually the only diesel line in that neck of the woods (at the moment Oxenholme sees diesel Voyagers and diesel 185s, but both will be replaced by EMUs later this decade), so should be a fairly cheap and logical bit of line to electrify.

At the moment it takes up a 185 which is a complete waste of resources (though, like the Lymington line, possibly the "least bad" option).

I'd rather that we tackled infills like Windmere if they have better cost/benefit ratios than grandiose schemes.

Nail on the head there as usual with this topic tbtc.

1 185 could be so useful to TPE (or whoever they go to) and also allow windemere to regain through services using electric trains.

 

[Chris125]

Quote - A new electrified passenger and freight corridor linking the core centres of population and business in Yorkshire and the Midlands with ports in the south of England - Unquote

That will be the Electric Spine project announced in the HLOS, the electrification of Southampton to Coventry and Bletchley/Bedford via Oxford and EWR.

Chris

 

[snowball]

Its a very short single track branch that is going to be virtually the only diesel line in that neck of the woods

Depends whether you regard that neck of the woods as including Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham or Carnforth-Barrow (let alone the Cumbrian coast).

 

[ainsworth74]

To what standard though? The electrification of the ECML was done cheaply but that directly causes more disruption due to OHE problems than it would have done if more had been invested in it.

I imagine that you could get away with near trolly bus standards of wiring on that branch! It hardly gets ECML levels of usage does it?

 

[Mikey C]

Ahhh thanks. I thought the East Midlands were about to be dragged into the 20th Century for a minute.

But it is, as it includes electrification of the MML as announced earlier this year, which will follow on towards the end of the decade

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I imagine that you could get away with near trolly bus standards of wiring on that branch! It hardly gets ECML levels of usage does it?

It would guarantee through electric trains Windermere/Kendal to Manchester. I suspect there's been some lobbying locally.
However, the same can't be said for Barrow, which looks like keeping a DMU shuttle from Lancaster except perhaps at peak times.
The over-the-top 3-car 185 would probably be replaced by an even longer 4-car 319. The Windermere platform is 163m long (Staveley only 55m).
The single-track 10-mile branch speed is 60mph max so should be cheap to wire.

 

[ainsworth74]

It would guarantee through electric trains Windermere/Kendal to Manchester. I suspect there's been some lobbying locally.

I'm sure it would and a good thing to I have to say (and equally a crying shame about Barrow not getting wired at least yet), but we're hardly going to be talking ECML levels of usage surely? At most what, one train per hour? The ECML south Peterborough gets six per hour minimum I'd have thought, probably more. There's no need to gold-plate wires which are only ever going to see light usage.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the previous interim plan for Oxenholme-Windermere branch was for limited services via Bolton and later a portion working with the Blackpool service before becoming a branch shuttle from 2016 when Blackpool was electrified and the diesels went elsewhere. Electrification would be very welcome but I first heard on the grapevine about this study a while back!

Must say its hard to wade through the reannouncement of projects in this speech, announced many times before, and actually find new funding. Indeed the Institute of Fiscal Studies has condemned this Government Spending Review as 'woeful'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23082495

Looking through the detail, new schemes are mostly motorway and major a road upgrades, the £2m feasability study for Crossrail 2 will be on identifying sources of funding with a target of 50% or more being private rather than Government funding.

This is buried in the document published today posted above.

Lord Deighton has been given a mandate by the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister to overhaul the delivery of public-sector infrastructure projects and programmes. Key to this new approach will be the introduction of a presumption that significant economic infrastructure projects and programmes should be undertaken by specialist delivery units with commercial expertise. This will include:

Drawing on the Brown Review of the franchise programme and the work of Lord Deighton to improve delivery of significant infrastructure projects, the Department for Transport (DfT) will bolster its commercial capability in rail franchising. By December 2013, DfT will conclude its evaluation of the options and set out plans for the future location of these functions so as to ensure the optimal management and delivery of the Government’s rail franchising programme;

Drawing on the findings of the Cook Review, the Highways Agency will be transformed in to a publicly-owned corporation which has the long-term funding certainty and flexibility which will enable it to deliver capital efficiencies worth £600 million by 2020-21. This investment and these reforms will be underpinned by legislation to provide certainty for the public, business and industry;

So the highways agency becomes like Network Rail and a new arms length franchising team within the Dft or spin off sub agency, possibly heavily relying on outsourcing staff or hiring in industry expertise.

 

[ainsworth74]

and a new arms length franchising team within the Dft or spin off sub agency, possibly heavily relying on outsourcing staff or hiring in industry expertise.

Well with the number of franchises due for renewal between now and 2020 I've been thinking for a while it would be logical to recreate OPRAF to deal with the shear number of franchises all being done at the same time. Heck you could go wild and get some people in who were, you know, experts at this sort of thing. Rather than just hoping no-one notices that the DfT doesn't have a clue what's it's doing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well with the number of franchises due for renewal between now and 2020 I've been thinking for a while it would be logical to recreate OPRAF to deal with the shear number of franchises all being done at the same time. Heck you could go wild and get some people in who were, you know, experts at this sort of thing. Rather than just hoping no-one notices that the DfT doesn't have a clue what's it's doing.

That's exactly what has been done, except they all work for DfT now. In any event, Pete Wilkinson has scheduled the franchise competitions such that there are all sequential, and only 3 or 4 in any part of the process at any one time. Stable resource in both DfT and all the owning groups bid teams.

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully this will encourage other short "infills" in the area, like Lancaster - Morcambe/ Heysham or the Blackpool South branch?

Depends whether you regard that neck of the woods as including Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham or Carnforth-Barrow (let alone the Cumbrian coast).

The Cumbrian Coast will probably be a self contained line after the other lines are electrified (maybe one or two a day through to Manchester).

To what standard though? The electrification of the ECML was done cheaply but that directly causes more disruption due to OHE problems than it would have done if more had been invested in it.

It's a roughly fifteen mile single track branch which one train shuttles up and down (with no freight) so you'd be okay with 50mph top speed presumably?

In which case you could wire it like the Paisley Canal line - doesn't need to be anything fancy.

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed - makes a lot of sense if only for releasing a somewhat heavy and expensive 185 to make better use elsewhere.

Come 2017 I think without Oxenholme-Windermere infill it would be unlikely that a 185 would run a Windermere shuttle and more likely would be a class 156 or similar.

 

[Eagle]

Come 2017 I think without Oxenholme-Windermere infill it would be unlikely that a 185 would run a Windermere shuttle and more likely would be a class 156 or similar.

Or one of the remaining Pacers

 

[dk1]

Or one of the remaining Pacers

Isn't the branch mainly long welded rail now? If so would be perfect for a Pacer shuttle. In my opinion here in East Anglia, so are the Felixstowe & Sudbury Branches. Would release other units for better enhancements elsewhere. Why withdraw some 142s when there is life left in them on short-hop branch lines?

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Cumbrian Coast will probably be a self contained line after the other lines are electrified (maybe one or two a day through to Manchester).

Don't forget though that the units operating on the Cumbrian Coast will still need to be serviced at Newton Heath in which case there is no obvious benefit in extending the wires over the Windermere branch. Surely the same units will run on both lines?

 

[A0]

To what standard though? The electrification of the ECML was done cheaply but that directly causes more disruption due to OHE problems than it would have done if more had been invested in it.

There are others on this board who would fundamentally disagree with your comment that the ECML electrification was done 'on the cheap'. Given at least one was involved in the project, I think they're far better qualified to talk about it than you are.