Government Spending Review

[RichmondCommu]

Realistically though, electrification would mean direct trains to/from Manchester/ Liverpool (etc) rather than continuing with just one train a day to Manchester - which must make a big difference (in terms of keeping cars off the Lake District roads).

Well yes and no, depending on where you're heading. If it’s a day trip to Windermere and Ambleside then I would be inclined to agree with you. However, from personal experience any further for example Coniston, Grasmere and Langdale and people will still take their cars. A weekend's walking / climbing without access to a car is far from easy.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We didnt really get the details from the budget speech in the Infrastructure announcement but the routes handed over to London Overground are West Anglia Liverpool Street station to Enfield Town, Chingford and Cheshunt of the 25 stations 23 will transfer to LOROL with Liverpool Street and Chingford stations remaining Greater Anglia/Network Rail run. Transfer of Southeastern services is 'unlikely to happen at the present time' according to Tfl.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23144343

So that disposes of the wild rumours about Stansted and Cambridge then.
Next question is "when"? I guess the same April 2015 date as for Crossrail GA stations would make sense.
It's also the date the current GA franchise expires (so the extension negotiations would exclude both services).
I notice you say LOROL is to be the recipient operator (ie the Arriva/MTL JV). Wouldn't there have to be some kind of competion or negotiation first, conducted by TfL?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I am sure the local's will be "up in arms" when they hear masts and wires will be erected in the beautiful countryside around Windermere.

To be honest I think the masts tend to be more of an isssue when they are errected on viaducts. If and when the S & C gets done I dare say the National Park officials will have a lot to say on the subject!

 

[jon0844]

I expect LO will seek to replace the 315s sooner rather than later.

And I wonder if they'll be refurbished and cascaded, or scrapped?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I expect LO will seek to replace the 315s sooner rather than later.

And I wonder if they'll be refurbished and cascaded, or scrapped?

I assume that they would be sent to South Waless to run in the Valleys?

 

[Zoe]

Liverpool Street and Chingford stations remaining Greater Anglia/Network Rail run.

Will there still be some Greater Anglia services to Chingford then? It seems a bit strange to leave Chingford with Greater Anglia if they are no longer going to serve the station. I know there are stations which are only served by Cross Country but managed by a different TOC as Cross Country do not manage and stations but it seems a bit odd leave Chinford with a TOC that won't be serving the branch when every other station on the branch is transferred.

 

[transmanche]

of the 25 stations 23 will transfer to LOROL with Liverpool Street and Chingford stations remaining Greater Anglia/Network Rail run.

How odd that Chingford will remain with GA - an isolated outpost! (I wonder what the logic of that is?)

I notice you say LOROL is to be the recipient operator (ie the Arriva/MTL JV). Wouldn't there have to be some kind of competion or negotiation first, conducted by TfL?

There's nothing I've seen in the public domain which says it will be operated by LOROL.

Tom Edwards (BBC London's transport correspondent) says:

The second interesting point is this will be run as a concession.

So, TfL will pay a private operator to run the service on its behalf and it will keep the fare box - like the DLR & London Overground.

Read in to that what you will. Is he hinting that it will be a separate concession? (The London Overground brand is not restricted to services operated by LOROL.) He might be hinting that it may not even use the Overground brand - although it would be odd if it didn't.

Edit: Someone asked him on Twitter. "will tfl brand it as london overground the same as the old siverlink service which they took over"? And his answer: "dont know yet".

So, I guess we'll have to wait a bit...

 

[swt_passenger]

One of the original TfL proposals about transfer of responsibility for WA & SE inner suburban services did point out that it didn't mean that incorporation into LO would automatically occur. They could get exactly the same effect with the incumbent TOC given a contact like LOROL have, especially if the trains were reliveried.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reference to Chingford is a typo, I think. They probably mean Cheshunt, which will be a TfL route terminus, but will also have WA services. The list in Tom Edwards blog seems correct.

The three routes to be taken over Chingford, Cheshunt and Enfield Town were flagged up by Chris125's post made in the 'Overground' thread last week, I then found that Tfls project page listed the same three routes: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1491010&postcount=87

 

[transmanche]

The reference to Chingford is a typo, I think. They probably mean Cheshunt, which will be a TfL route terminus, but will also have WA services. The list in Tom Edwards blog seems correct.

Ah that makes sense.

 

[RicP]

I am not sure the Beeb news blog is right. TfL overseeing part of a former franchise is what happened when the Silverlink Metro Operations were separated from County, which is now part of LM.

... but .... routes handed over to London Overground are West Anglia Liverpool Street station to Enfield Town, Chingford and Cheshunt of the 25 stations 23 will transfer to LOROL with Liverpool Street and Chingford stations remaining Greater Anglia/Network Rail run.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23144343

TfL contracted operations to LOROL, and their contract has been extended to 2015. These will be tendered separately, as they are very different animals. The station that will remain with Anglia is Cheshunt not Chingford. Cheshunt will have more Anglia services stopping, and for the moment Hertford East hasn't been included. Anglia's stock sidings at Chingford will eventually become part of the TfL package. This is probably because Hertford's will become Semi fast, with the TfL locals running to Brimsdown on the new track.
As for stock, I was telling a local meeting on Monday that an FCC rep was misleading Haringey Borough, as GN inners have no replacements planned for their scruffy 313s. They are 3-4 years older than 315s. FCC man agreed with me that they need to discuss 313 refurbs as an option!
So expect a major refurb of 315s for the Enfield / Southbury and Chingford lines. And Stratford - Brimsdown. Remember 378s came on the back of serious overcrowding on the North London, and the Olympic Travel Plan. Refurbished 8-car 315s going back to Jazz Style 10 minute intervals are likely to run for some years yet.

 

[transmanche]

I am not sure the Beeb news blog is right. TfL overseeing part of a former franchise is what happened when the Silverlink Metro Operations were separated from County, which is now part of LM.

That's exactly what Tom Edwards said:

It's pretty rare for a franchise to become a concession. The only one I can think of is Silverlink on the North London Line becoming London Overground.

 

[RicP]

Sorry tm but I have not got time to read every entry, despite the fact all are informative. I may have another perspective after I have met some LOROL managers on 3/7.

 

[Class377/5]

As for stock, I was telling a local meeting on Monday that an FCC rep was misleading Haringey Borough, as GN inners have no replacements planned for their scruffy 313s. They are 3-4 years older than 315s. FCC man agreed with me that they need to discuss 313 refurbs as an option!

As FCC franchise ends next year, of course they won't know about replacement stock.

However if you live on the Welywn GC route you see the new class 700 replacing some 313 routes however so in a fashion there is some replacement planned depending on your view.

 

[jon0844]

313s could happily continue running for a while longer with a refurbishment, and the opening up of the middle cabs for public use (and locked in a fixed 6-car formation). If they changed to 2+2 seating, or even 378 style seating (or a mix, like the S-Stock) then they'd be able to take many more people and cope with the current demands.

Ideally, getting all the remaining 313s (as there are some services that have to be just 3-car) would help too.

I do think that TfL is more likely to opt to get new trains though, but that doesn't mean 313s can be refurbished and cascaded somewhere else - as with the 315s.

 

[Chris125]

I notice you say LOROL is to be the recipient operator (ie the Arriva/MTL JV). Wouldn't there have to be some kind of competion or negotiation first, conducted by TfL?

I think they are more likely to end up under the control of the Crossrail concessionaire, the bidders for which were advised that “...in addition to the services identified, the Crossrail train operator may be required to operate train services and manage stations on routes further out to Reading and/or Ebbsfleet and/or on additional routes from Liverpool Street to Chingford, Enfield Town and Cheshunt”

Chris

 

[The Ham]

I think they are more likely to end up under the control of the Crossrail concessionaire, the bidders for which were advised that “...in addition to the services identified, the Crossrail train operator may be required to operate train services and manage stations on routes further out to Reading and/or Ebbsfleet and/or on additional routes from Liverpool Street to Chingford, Enfield Town and Cheshunt”

Chris

Adding it to the Crossrail brand would make sense as it could then enable it to be part of/connect well with Crossrail 2 if that goes ahead in it's metro form.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe later on, but only once the line actually crosses London. At the moment trains from Cheshunt will terminate at Liverpool Street, so not cross anything!

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe later on, but only once the line actually crosses London. At the moment trains from Cheshunt will terminate at Liverpool Street, so not cross anything!

They aren't referring to adding it to the Crossrail route, just having the same operating contractor.

The Crossrail operator takes over Shenfield to Liverpool St in a fairly short time, relative to the tunnels opening, at which stage they'll effectively have a TOC management and staff sitting about with very little to operate.

So more like the current FCC setup, where they basically run two physically separate networks, ie Thameslink and the GN...