Got am offer for settlement thru the post

[Grumpyboy]

Letter was addressed to me, the guardian of my son who is 17yrs old.

It states that he was caught without a ticket when getting off the train.

His journey was from a station that does not have any means of buying a ticket. When he got on the train was packed with people standing in the aisles shoulder to shoulder. This was because it was en route to a festival and so the train was packed with festival goers. Such was the congestion that any ticket conductor would have a very slow job traversing the carriages.
So my son could not get a ticket on board.

When he alighted he was asked to produce a ticket by station staff checking tickets. He explained the situation and expressed the wish to purchase a ticket but the station staff did not want to listen. Did not afford him the opportunity to buy a ticket and asked for ID which was produced.

Now we have a settlement offer letter via post.

Is there any point trying to appeal as it includes a large admin fee on top the ticket fee

Thx in advance

 

[najaB]

Is there any point trying to appeal as it includes a large admin fee on top the ticket fee

Of your son's starting station definitely has no ticket facilities then he has done nothing wrong and so yes, you should appeal.

 

[Grumpyboy]

Thx. This is all new to me. How does one appeal?

And also if we appeal and it is rejected, does the offer to settle within 21days still apply or not?

Thx

 

[furlong]

Which was the starting station and what time/day of the week? What means of payment was he intending to use - cash or card, for example?

 

[Grumpyboy]

The station was Avoncliff and he was going to pay cash

 

[furlong]

It won't be an appeal as such. Rather an offer of an out-of-court settlement in lieu of prosecution.

So you first should delve into the technical details of the matter to work out how likely such a prosecution would be to succeed.

 

[Grumpyboy]

It won't be an appeal as such. Rather an offer of an out-of-court settlement in lieu of prosecution.

So you first should delve into the technical details of the matter to work out how likely such a prosecution would be to succeed.

I can't afford to go to court and risk losing

So the pertinent question is, if I propose a counter offer will they rescind the original offer and go straight to court

 

[furlong]

So the GWR website confirms there are no facilities whatsoever for ticket purchase at that station.

The next question would be what was the destination station, and could the train company argue that there were opportunities to purchase a ticket at another station en route?

 

[Grumpyboy]

Castle Cary was the destination

 

[Bletchleyite]

Castle Cary was the destination

On a direct train or with a change?

What we are trying to ascertain is whether he may have passed an opportunity to pay of any kind. These aren't always obvious (e.g. the new TVM at Aspley Guise that isn't noticeable from the Bletchley bound platform, and if you were in a hurry could land you on the wrong side of closed level crossing barriers).

If not, I do wonder if there is the possibility that the RPIs didn't have the facilities to sell a ticket, and so issued a UFN (unpaid fares notice), which can be issued in a case of no wrongdoing, and in such a case you simply get an invoice for the fare. Possibly the admin fee was applied in error in this case.

 

[Grumpyboy]

It was a direct train. So he did not have to change trains but it stopped at stations in between Avoncliff and castle Cary.

I will post a copy of the letter

 

[Grumpyboy]

 

[Grumpyboy]

It's says Bradford on Avon. Not sure why because he got on at Avoncliff. I have the ticket for the return journey as such

 

[Grumpyboy]

 

[furlong]

So what did he tell the inspector at the time?
Bradford-on-Avon does have ticketing facilities.

 

[furlong]

We don't know for sure, but the interaction with the inspector is likely to have been recorded on a body-worn camera, so I see two possibilities:

1) He said he travelled from Avoncliff but the inspector made a mistake and wrote it down as Bradford-on-Avon

As that origin station does have ticketing facilities, a prosecution might well be successful unless the error is corrected.


2) He told the inspector the wrong station.

The prosecution for travel from Bradford-on-Avon would fail once the facts come to light, but instead might be replaced with a more serious charge of what amounts to the railway version of fraud i.e. cheating the railway out of part of a fare by telling a lie.

 

[Grumpyboy]

Says he may have said Bradford on Avon as a generalisation not knowing the guy wanted the exact station. Not many ppl know where Avoncliff is

 

[najaB]

For clarity, did this happen on the outward or return journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW if it is the case that he told the inspector incorrectly where he got on, either accidentally or deliberately, then that settlement seems quite good value. They've only added £25 onto the Anytime fare, typically either £80 or £100 is a more common sum to add.

I'd have a conversation with him, making it clear that he isn't in trouble with you and that he should be honest about which is the case. If he indeed said the wrong station or even thinks he may have done, it is probably worth the additional £25 to avoid the hassle. (The fare is due regardless, though if he was going to buy a £13.something CDR that might feel a bit raw!).

 

[Grumpyboy]

The prosecution for travel from Bradford-on-Avon would fail once the facts come to light, but instead might be replaced with a more serious charge of what amounts to the railway version of fraud i.e. cheating the railway out of part of a fare by telling a lie.

BoA is actually further away not closer to castle Cary so the above surely would not apply

 

[Grumpyboy]

He did leave from Avoncliff. I know this because I dropped him off there, replete with all his camping gear

 

[furlong]

This is a common problem, where staff ask a not-very-precise question, and the traveller doesn't understand the importance of answering the precise question they should have asked.
e.g. "Where've you come from?" vs "What was the name of the station at which you began your railway journey today?"

Unless you want to get into that level of semantics - and it's a risky strategy if the interaction was recorded and the precise questions and answers are reviewed - you might well opt to take the settlement.

 

[Grumpyboy]

This all happened on the outward Avoncliff to CC leg

 

[furlong]

BoA is actually further away not closer to castle Cary so the above surely would not apply

In railway terms BoA is closer than Avoncliff and the fare is slightly cheaper. Asking to buy a ticket from BoA amounts to short-faring, a railway version of fraud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He did leave from Avoncliff. I know this because I dropped him off there, replete with all his camping gear

I'm not suggesting he used a different station, but that he might have answered the question incorrectly on what his origin was.

If there is any possibility that he did, whether on purpose or by accident, the £25 + fare is good value to ensure no further issues.

 

[Haywain]

I’m just going to point out that whilst the settlement may seem harsh, it is actually very reasonable compared to what other companies request.

 

[Grumpyboy]

In railway terms BoA is closer than Avoncliff and the fare is slightly cheaper. Asking to buy a ticket from BoA amounts to short-faring, a railway version of fraud.

You are right I see. Didn't know that.

Is there any way to open a dialogue with GWR without forfeiting the offer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right I see. Didn't know that.

Is there any way to open a dialogue with GWR without forfeiting the offer?

You could contact their Prosecutions Department via the email address given (provided you leave enough time to pay before the deadline). However, I would establish if he might have said the wrong station to the inspector before you do this (it doesn't overly matter why he did, just if he did), as if he did I think it is at that cost not worth contesting.

 

[Hadders]

For the sake of £25 I'd just pay the settlement to make the matter go away.

Whether deliberately or not the OP's son gave an incorrect origin station. Put yourselves in GWR's shoes for a moment and you'll realise this is a very reasonable offer to avoid court.

 

[furlong]

Well the problem you've got is that

1) on the scale of offences, stating a closer origin station is considered more serious than "only offering to pay when challenged", so things could get worse

2) the settlement offer is near the bottom of the scale i.e. cheap as these things go - so you'll struggle to get any better settlement offer unless you can show it was the railway at fault