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Goodbye National Express East Anglia.......

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ainsworth74

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I will say it again, NX has by far the largest fleet of pre-privatisation rolling stock of any London-based operator and probably of any TOC in the UK.

Not necessarily, as a percentage NXEA is better off than FGW, EC (perhaps not a fair comparison admittedly), Merseyrail, FCC and Northern in terms of post-privitisation rolling stock. I worked out the numbers a couple of months ago and you can see them here. Though of course still having 80% of the fleet being pre-privatisation is a massive issue.

No other operator faces the same challenges. A fleet refurbishment programme to bring the NXEA fleet up the same standards as, say, the Cl455 fleets on SWT and Southern would require a MASSIVE investment.

I don't think Northern would agree with you there.
 
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lemonic

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EG at Ipswich since they changed the layout of the booking hall and cut back the ticket office staffing. Result being last week I had to wait 30 minutes to pick up a ticket at a self service ticket machine, there was a gentleman moaning who wanted to speak to staff at the ticket office, because one person was trying to buy tickets for today but the person in front of him was buying tickets for the next two months, as there is no separate tickets for today and future anymore and the travel office was closed down and two ticket machines is not really adequate anymore because of the reduced staffing.

I didn't realise they cut down the ticket office staffing at Ipswich. I was very surprised to find two members of the staff in the ticket office around 10pm one night recently, which you can contrast to Bristol Temple Meads where I have seen the ticket office closed at that time. At least in East Anglia I am not aware of the ridiculous scenario that occurs in some parts of the country where ticket barriers are in operation (which need staff present), yet the ticket office has been closed and only self-service ticket machines are available which don't sell all the tickets you could want e.g. GroupSave.
 

Harlesden

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A number of improvements are planned during the franchise period.

* Better station & ticket facilities and improved passenger information
* Text messaging service to keep passengers informed if disruptions occur
* New information desks at major stations
* Extending Oyster Pay As You Go between Liverpool Street and Shenfield / Hertford East
* Mobile phone and print-at-home ticketing facilities.
* 600 car park spaces
* More cycle storage facilities
* Deep cleaning of stations and trains.
* Bus service between Audley End and Saffron Walden
* New ticket gates at: Billericay, Brentwood and Chadwell Heath before the Olympics.
 

F Great Eastern

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I didn't realise they cut down the ticket office staffing at Ipswich. I was very surprised to find two members of the staff in the ticket office around 10pm one night recently, which you can contrast to Bristol Temple Meads where I have seen the ticket office closed at that time. At least in East Anglia I am not aware of the ridiculous scenario that occurs in some parts of the country where ticket barriers are in operation (which need staff present), yet the ticket office has been closed and only self-service ticket machines are available which don't sell all the tickets you could want e.g. GroupSave.

This was on a Saturday around mid-day. Maybe someone was on a break or something, I don't know, all I know is there was one staff member, quite a large queue, and also the queue for two ticket machines was huge and nearly everyone seemed to be picking up advance tickets. Hence my reasoning to install a third machine.
 

PSD

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Will there be any jobs going for this new franchise? As i currently work for Merseyrail, but would definitely consider a secondment or job move down towards Suffolk due to family commitments
 

MidnightFlyer

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I quite like the idea of colour-coordinating timetables to show busyness.

A number of improvements are planned during the franchise period.

* Better station & ticket facilities and improved passenger information
* New ticket gates at: Billericay, Brentwood and Chadwell Heath before the Olympics.

The former is good to see, however the latter is debateable!
 

87015

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ginger

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I quite like the idea of colour-coordinating timetables to show busyness.

Pointless! Commuters are not about to start going into London an hour earlier because a timetable says there may be more seats.....most have families or jobs that operate on strict hours i.e. 9-5 or 9.30-5.30.....once they have finished they just want to get home....hence rush hour!!!

Ridiculous idea that is factuous spin.....just grabs a few headlines and allows some nitwit at DAFT to say "look we are improving customer service!"
 

317666

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As for stations, I am not aware of a single station on the WA that retains any WAGN branding let alone anything from pre-WAGN days.

A few of the stations on the Seven Sisters loop (Rectory Road and Stoke Newington both ring a bell) have the old WAGN purple signage. Although NXEA were quick to re-brand things from what I've noticed, the signs at Cambridge have changed from NSE to WAGN to ONE to NXEA in the space of about a decade.

I've also noticed that, when the 317/6s go to have the 'polar bear' livery applied, they no longer have the seat covers changed, but just the carpets. Does anybody know why this is?
 

ginger

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QUOTE - First Great Eastern

However if you are seriously saying they have invested a lot of money the state of trains and the fact many of them can go around for weeks without so much of a clean is not acceptable no matter what the excuse is, I would say the same for any operator, not just NXEA. There has been next to no money spent on the refurbishment of trains and that is a fact as other posters have said. A lot of things are outside the control of National Express, but the cleaning and the on train environment is something that is certainly under their control which they have failed to spend adequate sums on.

UNQUOTE

First Great Eastern – I could not agree with you more –

Let’s not forget NX were effectively bankrupt in 2009 – as part of their “recovery package” agreed with the banks the following spending commitments on Greater Anglia that NX were suppose to pay for went immediately and very quietly – here a few headline grabbers:

1. Cl.321 refurbishment - £10m refurb announced in 2007 including new seats, new heating, aircon etc etc – cancelled – result £10m straight into profit
2. Carriage Washers – Ilford to be paid for by NX in the franchise contract – NX refused – result Nitwit Rail paid £2m to complete – result £2m straight into profit
3. Bombardier Repair / Spares contract – result trains that fall to pieces – result £unknown straight into profit
4. Clacton Depot reopening – in the franchise contract – reneged on by NX – Nitwit Rail paid £3m to have this completed – result £3m straight into profit

Now the drivers cabs have all been refurbed and fitted with aircon (and rightly so) but what about the passengers who pay extortionate fares for crappy trains that are falling to bits? All because the so called professional TOC cant run their own balance sheets properly??? Is that fair?? NO – NX are pure raceketeers and we are suffering!!!!

And the state of Cl 321/3s is fast catching up with the Cl.321/4s......and the 317s.....and the 315s......and the MKIIIs........

Blown window panels, disgusting seat covers, bottom seats that collapse, heating that does not work, PIS systems that don’t work, toilets locked out of use, doors that rattle alarmingly.......and they smell! Thats before we mention the unrefurbed 321/4s that were put straight into service without a deep clean....numerous passengers complaining about flea bites but nothing done....and guess what NX EA had run of complaint forms and were not printing anymore!!!

Let’s face it....it is a farce!!!!!!

QUOTE

At the end of the day the question is how many people are satisfied with the service now compared with the percentage of people, as that is the true way to judge a particular franchise, and unfortunately right now the current operators are generally more unpopular than the previous ones in most areas covered by the franchise apart from in a small number of areas. You just have to look at the satisfaction ratings now compared with what they were pre NX.

UNQUOTE

Latest quarterly figures from Passenger Focus place NXEA at the bottom – AGAIN!!!!

Every other TOC with pre privatisation stock has managed to refurb their trains to a very modern standard – why cant this lot? Because they are racketeers – pure and simple!!!!
 

VTPreston_Tez

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National Express East Anglia caused me New Year's misery. The Stansted Express trains are bearable I guess, but if Greater Anglia aren't better then NXEA I guess the complaints will be rollin' in.
 

jopsuk

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The loos on 317s. Or rather the sinks- on the /5s especially, these are often missing the floor-button to operate the tap. So there's no way to wash your hands when you've done what you need to do. JOYFUL.
 

90019

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I quite like the idea of colour-coordinating timetables to show busyness.

Pointless! Commuters are not about to start going into London an hour earlier because a timetable says there may be more seats.....most have families or jobs that operate on strict hours i.e. 9-5 or 9.30-5.30.....once they have finished they just want to get home....hence rush hour!!!

I think you're missing the point somewhat. Surely it's more for irregular and leisure travellers who are more flexible, so they can see which trains are less busy and try and avoid the most busy ones.
 

tbtc

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It always amazes me that every five years the trains get re-branded, it's just throwing money away, although it's nice to have freshly painted/de-called trains, sometimes they've only just finished re-branding and they're having to start over again.

As said on here as well, the company in control might change, but the on-board staff are the same, the stations are controlled by the same people, the trains are maintained by the same people at the same depot.

Surely the logical thing to do would be to call each area something simple, ie East Anglian Railways, and any company wanting to bid for that franchise has to take on that name and branding, then they could take their time doing an upgrade of the stock that actually needs it rather than having to rush through a blanket refurb of every train.

You couldn't think of a worse system if you tried.

Things like trains/ stations will need repainting every few years though, the paint jobs aren't going to last forever.

Daft to repaint a train that's only just been painted, yes, but a "rolling" programme would avoid that

I think that was my point though?

"then they could take their time doing an upgrade of the stock that actually needs it rather than having to rush through a blanket refurb of every train."

You said that it was "throwing money away". I was pointing out that it needs doing every few years anyway. Generally a new TOC takes a long time to repaint/rebrand all trains/infrastructure, so much so that there's criticism on sites like this for TOCs still having trains running around in the "old" livery a few years later.

I don't think there's any mad rush to repaint everything straight away - the number of people complaining about the fact that trains still run around in old colours (like the complaints about the GNER navy still on the ECML years later) is roughly equal to the number of complaints about rebranding things too fast. Can't please everyone...

I quite like the idea of colour-coordinating timetables to show busyness

Pointless! Commuters are not about to start going into London an hour earlier because a timetable says there may be more seats.....most have families or jobs that operate on strict hours i.e. 9-5 or 9.30-5.30.....once they have finished they just want to get home....hence rush hour!!!

Ridiculous idea that is factuous spin.....just grabs a few headlines and allows some nitwit at DAFT to say "look we are improving customer service!"

I agree with Matt - if I know which services are "reservations recommended" and which trains are shown as "twelve coaches" then I'll be tempted to adjust my travelling patterns accordingly. Not everyone can do this, of course, but those who have some flexibility can then decide whether a seat is more important than the ideal journey time.

Since TOCs can't guarantee everyone a seat on busy London rush hour services, it looks like good customer service to at least alert people to the best/worst services
 

ginger

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I think you're missing the point somewhat. Surely it's more for irregular and leisure travellers who are more flexible, so they can see which trains are less busy and try and avoid the most busy ones.

agree to a certain extent but in the offpeak most of the trains have plenty of seats so what is the point?

I agree that Abelio (or whoever got the short contract) have very little room for improvement but once again we have another bidder who walks into DAFT and says "guess what, we can increase revenue and premium payment spend no money on improving the trains and a few very, very small improvements to placate passengers"

Well I think as people are seeing passengers have had enough of paying huge premiums for other lines to be improved whilst our own falls to bits!

MPs, Rail User Groups and even the media and now applying serious pressue to both DAFT and Nitwit Rail pressing for serious investment.

Of course it will take time and real improvements wont be seen for at least 4-5 years but at least it is happening!

Mr Leigh, I do enjoy our exchanges and of course I will be overjoyed to see the back of NX but you have to admit, the complete failures of their's I highlighted earlier cannot be ignored.

Why should they be let off the hook for not coming up with their part of the bargain?

It is fine if you are on the West Anglia with all the new shiny Cl 379s but think of the majority of the travellers on the GE Mainline who produce a very large proportion of the lines revenue! You cannot deny we are being shortchanged and why shouldn't we complain about a TOC that is quite frankly disgraceful in it's contempt for passengers???
 

Bald Rick

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I quite like the idea of colour-coordinating timetables to show busyness.

Pointless! Commuters are not about to start going into London an hour earlier because a timetable says there may be more seats.....most have families or jobs that operate on strict hours i.e. 9-5 or 9.30-5.30.....once they have finished they just want to get home....hence rush hour!!!

Ridiculous idea that is factuous spin.....just grabs a few headlines and allows some nitwit at DAFT to say "look we are improving customer service!"

Not pointless at all - Many, many commuters do indeed go into work an hour earlier to get a seat, self included.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
MPs, Rail User Groups and even the media and now applying serious pressue to both DAFT and Nitwit Rail pressing for serious investment.

Of course it will take time and real improvements wont be seen for at least 4-5 years but at least it is happening!

?

There has been and is more investment going on the GEML now than there has been for more than a generation; £200m on the OLE in the next 2 years, £100m on the track in the next 3 years, etc. But none of this improves capacity, which, frankly, is going to be new line territory.

Having been to many meetings with MPs 'pressing' for upgrades on this line most of it is bluster to get their name in the papers. It's particularly fun when they demand investment to improve reliability, capacity and journey times, and then in the next breath demand a stop to all engineering works.
 
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O L Leigh

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Also whilst the remarks about graffiti and the location of it may well make them more difficult to clean for the reasons you outline, other franchises, and until a couple of years into this franchise when things started to change, they used to be done a lot quicker.

I think there's an element of nostalgia there, as my own recollections are at variance. The number, frequency and severity of graffiti attacks has reduced. Stabling locations (certainly at Bishops Stortford) have been makde more secure.

I have personally been involved in dealing with the aftermath of TWO instances were a complete 4 car EMU was sprayed from solebar to cantrail completely covering one side of the train. Both occasions the attacks happened at the same location and at similar times. I've even had two coaches of my unit sprayed up while stabled at the same location in broad daylight for something like 40 minutes in the evening peak. This just doesn't happen now.

There may be issues surrounding the reporting of graffiti as many people don't seem to see the problem; and that applies to passengers as much as to staff. There is a prevailing view on both sides that it's colourful at least. Personally I hate it with a vengeance and am always embarrassed to drive a train with graffiti on it, so I always book it as a fault. When I do it gets dealt with quickly.

However the refurbishment that has gone into current trains is very sub-standard, I don't know how you can lay the blame at anyone other than National Express, they should have refurbished stock better and to a higher standard, whatever the rights and wrongs about the size of the fleet, the fact is the bare minimum was spent on refurbishment and whilst previous franchises were by no means perfect, they did spend more money on rolling stock.

Given that the FCC Cl317 fleet has had the SAME refurbishments and updates as the NXEA fleet (CET tanks aside due to the lack of pump-out facilities on NXEA), I have to question why you blame the TOC. It seems to me that if it really was down to the TOC there should be more differences between the two Cl317 fleets than there are. It seems that most of these refurbs are actually driven by the ROSCOs

And a lot of that work that has been done has been pretty good, but to the average man on the street, who is not a train driver or enthusiast, they wilol not look at it like that and will ask themselves, what have National Express done for me in the 2004-2012 time period the vast majority of people in Essex and Suffolk do not think very much.

If their trains failed less often then that has to be a win, whether the passengers see it or not.

When First Great Eastern and Anglia Railways for whatever their rights and wrongs, people, including rail groups were lamenting their loss in the local press.

Ah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Any large transport conglomerate, First included, would have been tarred with the same brush as NX.

You can't judge the franchise from a customer point of view because of what you know and deal with internally, the general point is, and I'm not just saying this, but if you look at all of the satisfaction surveys over the past few years in general people are not very happy with the performance of the operator. That is not just my views, but it is reflected in the national rail survey results every year which suggests that people are not happy with the service provided by NXEA

And I'm just wondering where the root of the dissatisfaction comes from. My own view is that the Greater Anglia area was disadvantaged to start off with due to historic issues and has never had the investment to properly overcome them. I firmly believe that whoever had been awarded the franchise in 2004 would be in pretty much the same place as NX is now.

I agree it has been allowed to do that, and that is without doubt wrong and the DFT need to actually deal with that situation and actually set better franchise criteria the next time around. However at the same time nobody forced National Express to put a bid in like the one they did for the franchise, whilst at the same time nobody was forced to accept it in the DFT, so you can't just blame one party for this.

That is such a nonsense argument that it isn't even worth entertaining. That the franchising model at that time worked in the way it did is nobody's fault but the Government's. The TOCs can hardly be blamed for using standard business and tendering practices within the framework provided, and that applies as much to TOCs like GNER as it does to NX.

It's not just on the platforms, it's inside the stations, ticket halls and even on stations exteriors in some situations. It's even at one terminus. I won't name them all because I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed them, but the stations closest to London are not the place you should be looking.

Well maybe you should. Given the use that Chiltern put to the NSE "flash" and colours I would be interested to know where you've been seeing them on the WA lines.

Not necessarily, as a percentage NXEA is better off than FGW, EC (perhaps not a fair comparison admittedly), Merseyrail, FCC and Northern in terms of post-privitisation rolling stock. I worked out the numbers a couple of months ago and you can see them here. Though of course still having 80% of the fleet being pre-privatisation is a massive issue.

I knew someone would mention proportions.

As Benjamin Disraeli observed; "There are three types of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics." The other thing to bear in mind is that twice f*** all is still f*** all.

The problem that NXEA has is not to do with the proportion of the fleet but the sheer number of vehicles. It's going to cost approximately double to refurb a 4 car EMU compared to a 2 car DMU, both in terms of material, labour and time lost while out of revenue earning service. Given that NXEA has 244 pre-privatisation units (your figures, although I'm unclear how you classify the mainline sets), the vast majority of which will be 4 car EMUs, that gives almost 1000 individual vehicles. Faced with those numbers I really think Northern would have little to complain about.

Let’s not forget NX were effectively bankrupt in 2009 – as part of their “recovery package” agreed with the banks the following spending commitments on Greater Anglia that NX were suppose to pay for went immediately and very quietly.

Your memory is selective. It was NX Group that had it's back to the wall due to poor performance in it's overseas bus divisions, specifically their US school bus contracts and the Spanish coach concerns. The rail division (at that time pared back to cover just NXEA and c2c) did indeed remain profitable, but there was actually quite a lot of discussion at the time saying that the lions share had actually come from c2c and not NXEA.

Here a few headline grabbers:

1. Cl.321 refurbishment - £10m refurb announced in 2007 including new seats, new heating, aircon etc etc – cancelled – result £10m straight into profit
2. Carriage Washers – Ilford to be paid for by NX in the franchise contract – NX refused – result Nitwit Rail paid £2m to complete – result £2m straight into profit

Disputed.

The Ilford washer is not on Nitwit Rail's infrastructure. NR could have told them to poke it on the basis that they already had a functioning washer. The benefit of the new washer accrues entirely to the TOC as it reduces the number of movements in the depot and therefore time commitments. The washer at Orient Way is a different matter as the Olympic Delivery Authority promised a "like for like" replacement to make up for the loss of the carriage sidings at Thornton Fields, but the Ilford washer was not part of this programme.

3. Bombardier Repair / Spares contract – result trains that fall to pieces – result £unknown straight into profit

Disputed.

The contract was negotiated with the DfT and ROSCO. NX and their successors are simply the beneficiaries of this contract.

You really should speak to some of the Bombardier fitters. The support given to the Cl379 fleet is no different to that offered to LOROL, FCC, Southern or SET for their Electrostar fleets.

4. Clacton Depot reopening – in the franchise contract – reneged on by NX – Nitwit Rail paid £3m to have this completed – result £3m straight into profit

Disputed.

NX reopened the facility closed by First at a cost of £1.5m

Cite your sources, please. Just because you suspect something does not make it so. On those figures alone NXEA should have made at least £15m profit. I don't recall seeing any figures supporting this hypothesis, but maybe you're privy to information we don't have.

And the state of Cl 321/3s is fast catching up with the Cl.321/4s......and the 317s.....and the 315s......and the MKIIIs........

Blown window panels, disgusting seat covers, bottom seats that collapse, heating that does not work, PIS systems that don’t work, toilets locked out of use, doors that rattle alarmingly.......and they smell!

I remember the Cl317s were worse for all of these faults under WAGN than was ever the case under 'one' and NXEA. I vividly recall getting on a Cl317/1 and noticing a line across one window halfway up. It was only when the train pulled away and the line moved that I realised that the window was blown and actually half full of water. Never seen the like before or since.

The seats were faded and threadbare and a significant number were not attached to the frames. The carpets were worn and the vinyl floors were sticky. The exterior paint was faded and flaking with corrosion showing through. The toilets were beyond disgusting and the smell was abominable. The doors rattled, but then they always did even when new (it's the design, you know). And all of that applied to the "new" Cl322 Stansted Skytrain units too.

And then we get to Anglia's Mk2 mainline sets. There really isn't anything good to say about them. They rode poorly, were noisy and drafty, old and dirty and not at all comfy. The Cl86s were slow compared to Cl90 standards and the whole ambience was about as far from premier as it could be.

Shall I continue by describing their rural DMU fleet...? I think you must be getting the picture by now. As I've said once already, nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

The loos on 317s. Or rather the sinks- on the /5s especially, these are often missing the floor-button to operate the tap. So there's no way to wash your hands when you've done what you need to do. JOYFUL.

Would you believe that this is as a consequence of metal theft...? The original press studs were brass and have almost all been stolen. NX had been looking at a low-cost theft-proof alternative, but it seems to have stalled for whatever reason.

Well I think as people are seeing passengers have had enough of paying huge premiums for other lines to be improved whilst our own falls to bits!
MPs, Rail User Groups and even the media and now applying serious pressue to both DAFT and Nitwit Rail pressing for serious investment.

Of course it will take time and real improvements wont be seen for at least 4-5 years but at least it is happening!

And they have my sympathy. It is a matter of record that I believe decent investment in the Greater Anglia area is long overdue, but I don't believe 4-5 years is realistic. Heck, we're hardly likely to see Crossrail finished in that time.

Anglia need major investment that will take decades to complete. There are major capacity improvements that need to be delivered that haven't even been planned for.


Mr Leigh, I do enjoy our exchanges and of course I will be overjoyed to see the back of NX but you have to admit, the complete failures of their's I highlighted earlier cannot be ignored.

One of the things that you and others have failed to identify is that my defence of NXEA's record is not based on loyalty to the company but on a realistic view of the state of rail in the Anglia region. I firmly believe, as I have said repeatedly, that ANY rail company would have struggled to make Anglia work. Without proper investment in infrastructure and modern rolling stock, together with a modern maintenance facility, Anglia will remain a basket case no matter who the franchisee is.



It is fine if you are on the West Anglia with all the new shiny Cl 379s but think of the majority of the travellers on the GE Mainline who produce a very large proportion of the lines revenue! You cannot deny we are being shortchanged and why shouldn't we complain about a TOC that is quite frankly disgraceful in it's contempt for passengers???

Please do complain, but I firmly predict that in six months time it will be Abellio's name you'll be dragging through the mud.

There has been and is more investment going on the GEML now than there has been for more than a generation; £200m on the OLE in the next 2 years, £100m on the track in the next 3 years, etc. But none of this improves capacity, which, frankly, is going to be new line territory.

Forgive me for not getting excited, but most of that is to deal with backlogs. £200m to bring LNER's 1949 electrification up to 1960's standards by providing self-tensioning...? Oh please!!

It's the capacity improvements that need to be delivered. When will the GEML be 4-tracked to Colchester and the WA lines to Broxbourne? When will we get linespeed improvements and the removal of all those pesky LCs down the Lea Valley? These are the investments we want to see.



O L Leigh
 

ainsworth74

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As Benjamin Disraeli observed; "There are three types of lies. Lies, damn lies and statistics." The other thing to bear in mind is that twice f*** all is still f*** all.

Touché sir touché ;)

The problem that NXEA has is not to do with the proportion of the fleet but the sheer number of vehicles. It's going to cost approximately double to refurb a 4 car EMU compared to a 2 car DMU, both in terms of material, labour and time lost while out of revenue earning service. Given that NXEA has 244 pre-privatisation units (your figures, although I'm unclear how you classify the mainline sets), the vast majority of which will be 4 car EMUs, that gives almost 1000 individual vehicles. Faced with those numbers I really think Northern would have little to complain about.

You know I hadn't thought about it in those terms and when you put it like that it certainly does give the scale of the problem a new meaning. If I have time (which is unlikely but you never know) I might try and go back and re-work the numbers on a vehicle basis rather than a unit basis.

As for what I did with the mainline sets I just assumed that NXEA essentially uses them as 15 semi-permanently assembled sets (like for instance the 91+Mk4s on EC) and so just counted them as 15 units to the total. Obviously this is a crude way of doing things (as was the whole exercise) but I will admit I was going for the quick and easy option :oops:
 

O L Leigh

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The other thing I allowed for was the relative age of the Networker fleet. These are indeed pre-privatisation units, but are anything from 10-20 years newer than some of the other units running around at present and not really yet in need of a major internal refurb. Just a change of seat covers and an internal spruce-up are all that is required.

Additionally, HST formations, whether diesel IC125 or electric IC225, can be refurbed one vehicle at a time without negatively impacting on overall train availability, which has a knock-on effect on cost. These factors alone put FCC and particularly FGW and EC in a much better position with regard to fleet refurbishments.

O L Leigh
 

tbtc

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Any large transport conglomerate, First included, would have been tarred with the same brush as NX

Agreed

The problem that NXEA has is not to do with the proportion of the fleet but the sheer number of vehicles. It's going to cost approximately double to refurb a 4 car EMU compared to a 2 car DMU, both in terms of material, labour and time lost while out of revenue earning service. Given that NXEA has 244 pre-privatisation units (your figures, although I'm unclear how you classify the mainline sets), the vast majority of which will be 4 car EMUs, that gives almost 1000 individual vehicles. Faced with those numbers I really think Northern would have little to complain about

Good point - the length of trains does distort the figures - it will take a good bit longer to refurbish a 317/321 compared to a 150/156 - something that threads about DDA etc should bear in mind.
 

313103

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and staff are kept in order
It is a train company who these stafff work for, Not the SS, Stazi or the Kremlin.

So glad you think that the staff are out of order, perhaps you would like to enlighten us why you think the staff are out of order?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From what I've heard, MML was pretty good, as well as NX ScotRail. The few times I used Central I never had any problems either.

Out of curiosity, did you regularly use all those TOCs, or is it a case of 'it's NX so they must have been crap'?

i worked for all of the NEG ownership of Silverlink, to say they were shocking company to work is a total understatement, even the passengers could us sh*ttylink. All they did was brand and not much else. My colleagues on Central tell me the same story. I had to pitty my colleagues on Great Eastern they got most of the Management made surplus to requirements when TfL took over the running of Silverlink Metro and Go Ahead getting the Silverlink County services.
 

387star

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Wessex Trains/Wales and Borders didn't invest heavily in their trains either. Whilst they refurbished the 150s it was FGW who carried out the major refurbishment they needed. Wessex did work well with community lines however.

Midland Mainline has won several awards, however, and was one of the progressive TOCs in terms of bringing in new stock. I suppose so did Central so I don't know if that was down to the TOC or because they had to.

I never cared for Silverlink as they did not invest heavily in their trains and Central Trains whilst always being a problem franchise ran some pretty grotty trains. True this was not always under their control but the ex CT 158s which ended up in Wales and the North (many of which have seen little interior work to this date) were amongst the shabbiest of the lot.

As an aside those CT liveried units ended up running Wessex, SWT, Transpennine, Northern and Wales and Borders/ATW services!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How are their coaches?

Also does anyone know why they won so many franchises in the first place?

I can't say I'm a big fan of Arriva though either who don't seem to heavily invest
 

MidnightFlyer

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It is a train company who these stafff work for, Not the SS, Stazi or the Kremlin.

So glad you think that the staff are out of order, perhaps you would like to enlighten us why you think the staff are out of order?

I meant more as in 'happy' - no massive unrest arises, staff are happy with employer, jobs aren't cut etc.
 

Michael.Y

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I can't say I'm a big fan of Arriva though either who don't seem to heavily invest

Our 150s have new (post 2003) interiors and some have had refurbished toilets.

Our 153s have ex-158 seats and new carpets.

Our 158s are currently going through the biggest refurbishment programme they've ever had, including installing plugs, passenger information systems and new seating.

Our 175s are still fairly new, although being ex-First, they still have purple interiors, however the seat moquette and carpets are all in Arriva colours.

Our pacers also just won the Golden Spanner award for maintenance standards.

Just sayin'. ;)
 

tbtc

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Our 150s have new (post 2003) interiors and some have had refurbished toilets.

Our 153s have ex-158 seats and new carpets.

Our 158s are currently going through the biggest refurbishment programme they've ever had, including installing plugs, passenger information systems and new seating.

Our 175s are still fairly new, although being ex-First, they still have purple interiors, however the seat moquette and carpets are all in Arriva colours.

Our pacers also just won the Golden Spanner award for maintenance standards.

Just sayin'. ;)

I'm not arguing with the above, but the only new trains ordered by any of the Arriva companies I can think of are the 333s in West Yorkshire, which have little to do with Arriva themselves (WYPTE £££ etc).

Merseyrail, Cross Country, Arriva Trains Wales... not a lot in the way of new trains.

(ignoring the fact that Chiltern have some 172s and LOROL have some 172/378s, as these operations were not part of the same company as Arriva when ordered)
 

Michael.Y

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I'm not arguing with the above, but the only new trains ordered by any of the Arriva companies I can think of are the 333s in West Yorkshire, which have little to do with Arriva themselves (WYPTE £££ etc).

Merseyrail, Cross Country, Arriva Trains Wales... not a lot in the way of new trains.

(ignoring the fact that Chiltern have some 172s and LOROL have some 172/378s, as these operations were not part of the same company as Arriva when ordered)

What's the point of ordering new trains when the current fleet is more than adequate?
 

Skimble19

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It wouldn't have to. There would be no need to repaint at each franchise change if Network Rail managed all the stations. It would also save some of the TOCs from using some of their subsidy to do this.
Christ.. most stations end up looking like they need a repaint after a few years.. (less in some cases). If NR were ever to take over them all they'd end up looking like everything above head-height currently does - a mess!

As for NSE.. there's a few bits here and there, even on the GN. Look around and you're bound to see something. WAGN still exists in many places too, even on ticket machines. WAGN weren't the only operator to use viynl stickers inside trains, Silverlink did it too: see the 321's.
 
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