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Good Service

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Lampshade

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The problem on some routes is overprovision of first class compared with standard or having first class on routes that simply don't need it. Many people become infuriated on TPE when standard is sardine-like on departure from Piccadilly whereas first class is pretty much empty yet not declassified. It's the same on SWT, the 458s have a pathetic excuse for first class and it's nearly always empty.

As for Virgin making 45% of a 390 first class (and wanting one of the new carriages to be first)... <(
 
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Failed Unit

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It often surprises me that some TOCs do little to fill the empty seats in first. Virgin often have 2 or 3 people in first on Scottish routes but no APs for first. You would have thought that at times when first is nearly empty and standard is full they may offer a first value ticket costing slightly more than the standard anytime. I remember in the past open returns were allowed to travel off peak in first. East coasts Scottish exec is the kind of ticket that virgin could use to help balance the loads.
 

TomJ93

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Then you'd be in the wrong and quite rightly called a criminal.



Oh, well what an honourable person you are!


I think it's indicative of society nowadays that this is even up for debate. There's nothing to debate, quite simply. Travel in First only if you have a first class ticket. Easy.

Sorry I should have put them in context.

The LM guard said I could go into 1st to charge my phone, and I haven't sat in VT 1st (apart from when declassified or when I held a valid ticket.) But if I were say on the Euston to Glasgow without a seat for the entire journey I would sit in 1st but turn down drinks. I feel a train ticket should entitle you to a seat on long journeys.
 

MikeWh

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So, if he'd have (quite rightly) kicked you out, would he have been a bad member of staff?

Of course he would. Just like most people nowadays with a chip on their shoulder, they'd be posting here saying "we got thrown outa first, innit (sic)".

Er, I suggest you check who actually said that, because it certainly wasn't me! :roll:

My apologies, it wasn't you ... although you certainly seemed to be agreeing with the statement when you quoted it later on.
 

TomJ93

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I gave up with seat reservations the time 7 of us booked 2 tables in coach E next to each other. 8 Japanese ladies sat in our seats, did not speak a word of English.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I gave up with seat reservations the time 7 of us booked 2 tables in coach E next to each other. 8 Japanese ladies sat in our seats, did not speak a word of English.

Then you should have spoken to the guard, or sat somewhere else. Nonetheless at the moment, a ticket does not entitle you to a seat.
 

TomJ93

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Well it doesn't. So stand like everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, most of the time I am more than happy to stand, but if services like London to Scotland were heavily loaded would you want to stand for the entire journey? These sort of journeys should have compulsory reservations, especially as it's not the sort of journey you walk upto the station and make.

Then you should have spoken to the guard, or sat somewhere else. Nonetheless at the moment, a ticket does not entitle you to a seat.

Why should I sit somewhere else? I thought you told me a seat reservation entitles me to a seat! The guard was busy dealing with a fare evader and eventually we took some airline style seats in Coach C.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Why should I sit somewhere else? I thought you told me a seat reservation entitles me to a seat! The guard was busy dealing with a fare evader and eventually we took some airline style seats in Coach C.

It does. So speak to the guard to get them moved. If necessary, wait for the guard to finish with someone and then speak to him/her. Or go and sit in an unreserved seat if you don't want the fuss. It really isn't rocket science.
 

scotsman

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Don't get me wrong, most of the time I am more than happy to stand, but if services like London to Scotland were heavily loaded would you want to stand for the entire journey? These sort of journeys should have compulsory reservations, especially as it's not the sort of journey you walk upto the station and make.
I don't care, you are no better than anyone else. You paid for a standard class ticket, so you should travel in standard class. Feel free to upgrade.


Why should I sit somewhere else? I thought you told me a seat reservation entitles me to a seat! The guard was busy dealing with a fare evader and eventually we took some airline style seats in Coach C
The issue, however, was not with the reservation but with the passengers who ignored them couldn't speak English!
 

TomJ93

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I do agree, but Virgin were very very greedy when they ordered 4 carriages to 1st. Can you imagine how great 6s and 3f would be? Though with the new carriages 7s and 4f should be fine, though 8s would be better. Virgin are expanding the trains to cater to a increased demand in standard travellers, I doubt 1st has ever been completely packed on a 390. What I really could not believe was the Super Voyagers order, in a five carriage train to have 2 of those classified as 1st is ludicrous.

The same with the Desiro's really. On the /1s which should be used on the Euston to Birmingham/Crewe and Birmingham to Liverpool surely they should have plug sockets at every seat?
 

MCR247

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Both new carriages are standard. VT SVs have 1 first, 3 standard and 1 that can be either.

Either way, changing the subject doesn't deny that its wrong ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Both new carriages are standard. VT SVs have 1 first, 3 standard and 1 that can be either.

Either way, changing the subject doesn't deny that its wrong ;)
 

TomJ93

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Both new carriages are standard. VT SVs have 1 first, 3 standard and 1 that can be either.

Either way, changing the subject doesn't deny that its wrong ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Both new carriages are standard. VT SVs have 1 first, 3 standard and 1 that can be either.

Either way, changing the subject doesn't deny that its wrong ;)

In an ideal situation I wouldn't have sat in 1st on the LM, I just feel the TOCs are holding things that really should be available to passengers in standard, in an attempt to get them to upgrade to 1st.
 

MCR247

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:| Whether you think that it should be available to everyone or not, it isn't.
 

ralphchadkirk

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In an ideal situation I wouldn't have sat in 1st on the LM, I just feel the TOCs are holding things that really should be available to passengers in standard, in an attempt to get them to upgrade to 1st.

First class offers extra benefits which you pay more for. Like more legroom, quieter atmosphere and plug sockets.

It's like you're wanting to buy gold for the price of scrap iron.
 

Old Timer

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In an ideal situation I wouldn't have sat in 1st on the LM, I just feel the TOCs are holding things that really should be available to passengers in standard, in an attempt to get them to upgrade to 1st.
Total hogwash.

There is no coercion to upgrade whatsoever. Since when has an electric socket been a requirement for every passenger ?

The whole point of First Clas - for those who pay to use it - is that is offers additional facilities over and above those in Standard Class, in this case access to a power point.

I am sure LM would be quite happy to provide a power point for EVERY passenger, even when the vast majority will never use them, and will reflect the costs in the relevant fare increase.
 

TomJ93

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Total hogwash.

There is no coercion to upgrade whatsoever. Since when has an electric socket been a requirement for every passenger ?

The whole point of First Clas - for those who pay to use it - is that is offers additional facilities over and above those in Standard Class, in this case access to a power point.

I am sure LM would be quite happy to provide a power point for EVERY passenger, even when the vast majority will never use them, and will reflect the costs in the relevant fare increase.

Well when all other modern trains in this area offer them (390s, 221s, 168s) all offer them in standard why don't LM?
 

142094

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Well when all other modern trains in this area offer them (390s, 221s, 168s) all offer them in standard why don't LM?

Because not all trains will be taken out of service just to install some plugs, and not all trains will be taken out of service to install wifi as some people think they should.

Sitting in 1st class with a standard class ticket is still IMO fare evading, no matter how long you are there. Accepting the complimentary food/drink again is tantamount to theft. I've never sat in 1st class when I had a standard class ticket, and wouldn't expect others to do so as well.
 

TomJ93

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Because not all trains will be taken out of service just to install some plugs, and not all trains will be taken out of service to install wifi as some people think they should.

Sitting in 1st class with a standard class ticket is still IMO fare evading, no matter how long you are there. Accepting the complimentary food/drink again is tantamount to theft. I've never sat in 1st class when I had a standard class ticket, and wouldn't expect others to do so as well.

But should new build stock not feature them?
 

Failed Unit

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Depends what they are needed for. You could argue if the typical journey is less than 1 hour do you need power points?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
MML took the view most laptops will last on it's journeys. That said if you join the train with a flat battery......
 

ralphchadkirk

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But should new build stock not feature them?

If the stops are every couple of minutes, in a high-density area such as the lines out of London Bridge, then no the trains wouldn't need to feature them. The SET mainline trains - such as the ones to Hastings - might need to though.
 

scotsman

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I have been known to upgrade passengers who have struggled to find seats, I have (with regret) left a number of chancers in 1st Class compartments before because 'poor service' might lose their future custom. It's a shame, because I ought to have told them to take a hike.

If anyone tries to give me any story about what should be available to 3rd Class pax (as if you would on a steam railway) while sat in 1st on 3rd tickets I will shift them very quickly indeed.
 

jon0844

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I wonder if any people who upgrade themselves on a train also decide to upgrade on planes. I also wonder what the cabin crew would do if someone went from Virgin Economy to Upper Class.

While I know that everyone has a seat, this isn't the reason everyone upgrades. Some seem to just think they can because it's unfair that they can't, or should have to pay for something they feel entitled to.

Yes, new rolling stock may have most of the things currently, or soon, reserved for first class (Wi-Fi, sockets, seat-back screens or whatever) but you'll probably get other extras (food, drink), wider seats, more room, curtains or whatever - and the chance to do some work (which is why you, or your company, might pay the surcharge). Thus, there will still be a difference over standard and a reason to keep standard class people out.

If you feel like treating yourself, or actually have a time where you need to work (or rest) pay for a FC ticket or seek a TM and ask to upgrade. It's really that simple.

Perhaps if we get smartcard ticketing, passengers will be able to upgrade themselves without a TM/guard/RPI - and, presumably being timestamped, it will be easy to spot people who saw a guard and then rushed to the reader! The passenger is then charged £xx automatically, and then has a validated ticket to claim any benefits offered to FC users (or not, if the upgrade specifically excludes them). I can even see that regular standard class travellers might then earn points on their smartcard that would enable some free FC upgrades, but that's for another topic.
 
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It's hardly the crime of the century. Some pathetic jobsworths on here.

Having the attitude that people with standard tickets should be forced to stand rather than be given a seat in first class is pathetic. Some rules deserve to be broken.

Sitting in a slightly bigger seat in a different carriage is nothing like shoplifting as some people have alluded to.

Get a life.
 

MCR247

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Why does the word 'jobsworth' come around so often when people are in the wrong? If people doing their job right is being a 'jobsworth' then so be it.
 

jon0844

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I do think some people think that crime is only things like murder or rape. Anything else and 'get a life' or 'we all do it' or 'deal with it'. Basically, words spoken by rude and arrogant individuals who don't give a damn about anyone else.

Still, I'm sure throwing cigarette butts on the floor, or littering, or speeding, riding a bike on the pavement, or jumping the odd red light is not the crime of the century either. Plenty of people do that, but I am sure they all think they're 100% law abiding (as laws they disagree with don't count).

In fact, haven't the police got better things to do than uphold the law when they're silly rules anyway (granted, sitting in first isn't something the police would get involved in - but that's not the point).

I've been done for speeding. Got 9 points, and paid a hefty fine to avoid a ban.. but I didn't moan or tell the police to get a life. I did the crime, I paid the price. Life goes on.
 

scotsman

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It's hardly the crime of the century. Some pathetic jobsworths on here.

Having the attitude that people with standard tickets should be forced to stand rather than be given a seat in first class is pathetic. Some rules deserve to be broken.

Sitting in a slightly bigger seat in a different carriage is nothing like shoplifting as some people have alluded to.

Get a life.

Yeah, well - if you're on my railway and you can't get a seat (it's happened before) - I'll upgrade you, upgrade yourself and I'll have to think about whether you stay there ;)
 

TomJ93

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Yeah, well - if you're on my railway and you can't get a seat (it's happened before) - I'll upgrade you, upgrade yourself and I'll have to think about whether you stay there ;)

Whilst your gesture is very nice and would be very welcome I've only had one guard ever to that, and he seemed like a real nice bloke!

The amount of miserable, unreasonable conductors around makes your actions a rarity.

On a delayed LM sat in Northampton I had a 1st ticket and first was almost full, these women sat down and one said "s?>@ what if we get caught without tickets?" too which the rest of the coach said we're only standard tickets. The guard didn't come through for the whole journey.
 
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