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Good Service

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Lawman

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Folks.. read all replies..

Firstly, i again like to reitterate that it was a few people that came through, (Mid Journey) to speak with us in First Class from Standard, since the carriage was empty, they sat down to chat and were offered refreshments. Also there were children involved..

If they had been asked to return to Standard Class they would have done so with no issues.. so no... the crew member would not have been a bad member of staff if he had asked them to do so...

Secondly.. they were not "sneaked" into 1st Class, they just came through to chat! (there was humour in my first post)....

Thirdly, i take offence for my family and i to be accused of "criminals" or trying to fair evade as this was not the intention....

I had commented on this thread by "monkey" to again agree with him of the service we received on our journey as the crew member could have been strict with his rules and moved them back.. I am not suggesting that this happens on all the time, nor am i boasting about it, and I wouldnt expect it to happen again, however we were provided with an excellent service by this crew member and are grateful that we had a chance to all sit together unexpectedly! (for a while)

I am rather bemused that this has got such a reaction... I know everyone has an opinion and in mine, i dont think its a big deal.. merely just an act of good will!!
 
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Max

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I wouldn't endorse what Lawman has done in the slightest. But it does strike me as strange that everybody else is suddenly whiter than white. I doubt you're all perfect?
 

jon0844

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I'm not sure about the 'not trying to fare evade' bit. Surely you either are, or are not?

I certainly wouldn't be using that as my defence if I was in that situation and got caught, although I guess that everyone can plead ignorance these days - and consider that if it's not murder or rape, it's not that serious.

Certainly when you hear people talking to the police when they get done for a 'minor' offence, that seems to be the excuse.
 

MCR247

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I wouldn't endorse what Lawman has done in the slightest. But it does strike me as strange that everybody else is suddenly whiter than white. I doubt you're all perfect?

:lol: at how quiet this thread has gone since then!

But, I personally have not done anything like that, and I have never purposely fare evaded. The only instance that I have done anything that could be classed as that was when the ticket office was closed at Moor St I couldn't find the guard!

Folks.. read all replies..

Firstly, i again like to reitterate that it was a few people that came through, (Mid Journey) to speak with us in First Class from Standard, since the carriage was empty, they sat down to chat and were offered refreshments. Also there were children involved..

If they had been asked to return to Standard Class they would have done so with no issues.. so no... the crew member would not have been a bad member of staff if he had asked them to do so...

Secondly.. they were not "sneaked" into 1st Class, they just came through to chat! (there was humour in my first post)....

Thirdly, i take offence for my family and i to be accused of "criminals" or trying to fair evade as this was not the intention....

I had commented on this thread by "monkey" to again agree with him of the service we received on our journey as the crew member could have been strict with his rules and moved them back.. I am not suggesting that this happens on all the time, nor am i boasting about it, and I wouldnt expect it to happen again, however we were provided with an excellent service by this crew member and are grateful that we had a chance to all sit together unexpectedly! (for a while)

I am rather bemused that this has got such a reaction... I know everyone has an opinion and in mine, i dont think its a big deal.. merely just an act of good will!!

The fact that 'they'd have moved if asked' is irrelevant, and a poor excuse. Technically you're family could quite rightly be classed as fare evaders/criminals.
 
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IanXC

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Getting back to good service...

Theres a number of people who work in my office who get the train to work, and theres an earlier and a later train we can catch to get to work. On Wednesday the RPI having already done tickets, walked the length of the train to tell me that the following service was running 25 minutes late as "I know theres some of your colleagues who'll be on it".

That was really useful to me as it allowed me to plan for some staff being late, and I felt it showed real consideration for me as a passenger. Top marks to Northern!
 

scotsman

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Yup, there's plenty of them out there.

First post of 2011
 

Lawman

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come on now... they came through to chat for the remainder of the journey.... would you class that as a criminal offence?????

before i go and be tucked into my Thomas Tank Engine bed... :) lol, id like to agree with Max, not everyone on here is perfect!!

happy new year to all!!
 
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MCR247

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They are still fare evading. Thats a fact. So yes, if coming for a chat meant fare evading, then yes its a criminal offence. Sorry, but it is.
 

CarterUSM

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I wouldn't endorse what Lawman has done in the slightest. But it does strike me as strange that everybody else is suddenly whiter than white. I doubt you're all perfect?

Totally agree. I don't really endorse it either, but it is really none of my business. Glad you got good service anyway Lawman! Come on one of my trains and i'll see if i can rustle up a curly wurly. Now THAT'S service!:D
 

Striker

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Firstly, i again like to reitterate that it was a few people that came through, (Mid Journey) to speak with us in First Class from Standard, since the carriage was empty, they sat down to chat and were offered refreshments. Also there were children involved..

Just a few people? OK, fair enough.

And they only came to speak to you? Oh, well that makes it different then.

The carriage was empty? Really? Well, next time I travel on the train I'll be sure to check whether first class is empty as that obviously means I have the right to sit there with a second class ticket.

Secondly.. they were not "sneaked" into 1st Class, they just came through to chat!

I never realised a second class ticket entitles you to go into first class if you just want to "chat". Great idea IMHO.


Thirdly, i take offence for my family and i to be accused of "criminals" or trying to fair evade as this was not the intention....

How can you take offence as that is exactly what you were doing!

If you wanted to chat why didn't you go back to second class?

And also, if you knew you weren't entitled to the free drinks, why did you accept them? That is frankly taking the Michael.


I am rather bemused that this has got such a reaction... I know everyone has an opinion and in mine, i dont think its a big deal.. merely just an act of good will!!

That's the problem with people in this day and age. A general sense of entitlement and the belief that they have the right to set their own rules.


:lol: at how quiet this thread has gone since then!

I would think that's more to do with the fact that people have better things to do on New Year's Eve.


come on now... they came through to chat for the remainder of the journey.... would you class that as a criminal offence?????

Yes.


Totally agree. I don't really endorse it either, but it is really none of my business.

If somebody is going to post what they did on a public forum then they have to expect people to comment. And by turning a blind eye generally to stuff that you see as "none of your business" is just making it socially acceptable.
 

Old Timer

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Lawman

Without trying to lose the spirit of Christmas, or taking the matter out of proportion, the reading of your post suggests that this was not a passing visit for a few minutes but indeed a much longer term "visit".

There is a clear distinction between going into First Class and speaking to someone briefly, and staying there for an extended time, which your posts suggests was the case.

Whilst I think everyone will have a view on what a "few minutes" constitutes as against a longer visit, I doubt any on board staff would take exception to someone going into First Classif it were done briefly, and did not become a prolonged visit.

Personally I think there is a point at which you "family" stepped over the mark, and many on here take that view. I think the bigger issue here could well lie with the possible failure of the TM to protect the First Class, which is something I notice Virgin are very bad at, indeed currently I am in correspondence with Virgin about that very issue. I also believe that the placing of the TMs "office" in C was a decision that could only have been made by someone without a brain. The best position would be to the centre of the train against the First Class, so that not only can the TM keep an eye on First Class but is also in a more central position in the train.

I know that there are people who will try it on in First Class by sitting there until thrown out, and I have to say that Virgin are appalling at protecting their First Class against say the former GNER. On the basis that passengers travelling First Class have paid substantially more than those travelling Standard but irregularly occupying First Class seats I feel Virgin are giving their First Class passengers - who incidentally do subsidise all these cheap fares - a raw deal. Hence my correspondence with them.

On the basis that your family did occupy First Class for more than a short period, I think there are a number of issues that you need to consider, many of which are already made, that have fundamentally changed the relationship from a blind eye being turned to a more formal condition.

...Firstly, i again like to reitterate that it was a few people that came through, (Mid Journey) to speak with us in First Class from Standard, since the carriage was empty, they sat down to chat and were offered refreshments. Also there were children involved.
The number of people who came "through" is completely irrelevant, as is the fact that there were children involved. What on earth does THAT have to do with anything, other than they may now have gained the impression that it is permissible to ignore the difference between Standard and First Class if and when it suits them.

...If they had been asked to return to Standard Class they would have done so with no issues.. so no... the crew member would not have been a bad member of staff if he had asked them to do so... ....
Quite irelevant that they would have returned "with no issues". The point quite simply is that they were not authorised to be in First Class. In the event of an accident they would be judged to outside the terms of their tickets, and this would certainly have repercussions on their legal ability to claim damages.

By extension of the argument so far, it becomes the case that it is permissible for anyone to wander into First Class as long as they are happy to return to Standard "with no issues" ?

....Secondly.. they were not "sneaked" into 1st Class, they just came through to chat! (there was humour in my first post)....
Ah that makes it OK then I guess. Maybe I shall propound that argument next time I travel ? :lol: Note the humour on my reply ;)

......Thirdly, i take offence for my family and i to be accused of "criminals" or trying to fair evade as this was not the intention....
Your family have committed a number of acts which the legal system specifies are Criminal in nature. That entitles people on here to quite correctly call you "criminals". Taking free refreshments constitutes "Obtaining Goods and Services by Deception" as the free refreshments are not free but are included as part of the First Class ticket price, are it is clearly specified that they are only provided for passengers holding First Class tickets. That is one reason why First Class tickets are so expensive.

...I had commented on this thread by "monkey" to again agree with him of the service we received on our journey as the crew member could have been strict with his rules and moved them back..
The On Board catering staff member is not trained in revenue duties and therefore it is not within hois job to check for the eligibility of passengers to be in First unless asked by the TM.

I am not suggesting that this happens on all the time, nor am i boasting about it, and I wouldnt expect it to happen again, however we were provided with an excellent service by this crew member and are grateful that we had a chance to all sit together unexpectedly! (for a while)!!
I think the comment "excellent service" flows from the fact that those who were not entitled to, were suitably fed and watered for free.

....I am rather bemused that this has got such a reaction... I know everyone has an opinion and in mine, i dont think its a big deal.. merely just an act of good will!!
There was NO act of "goodwill" because your family members were not accorded anything special. They irregularly entered and sat in First Class for an extended period when they had not paid to travel First Class. They then proceeded to consume food and drink to which they were not entitled, and which was only provided on the belief of the on board catering staff that those benefitting from them were entitled to do so. I have previously seen on board catering staff request sight of First Class tickets before giving refreshments when the train has been especially full and Standard Class passengers have gone and sat in First Class and not yet been challenged by the TM. I have also seen and heard amusing scenes where the TM has told someone that whilst they would have been turfed out without charge, the fact that they have consumed food has altered the situation, pointing out that ticket they hold is not valid and they will have to purchase a full single First Class ticket at a cost of £140.

Finally Lawman suggests much. I do rather hope you are not a Policeman or other form of law enforcement officer.
 

MikeWh

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I useed to get upset when threads turned the way this one has, now I just laugh. For me, the most important post was the one by Max. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

One serious comment to Old Timer. When lawman stated that they would willingly have returned to standard if asked it was not as a way of justifying what they were doing. It was specifically in response to the accusation from Striker that they would have considered the caterer would have been a bad man if he'd done that.
 

Old Timer

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I useed to get upset when threads turned the way this one has, now I just laugh. For me, the most important post was the one by Max. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

One serious comment to Old Timer. When lawman stated that they would willingly have returned to standard if asked it was not as a way of justifying what they were doing. It was specifically in response to the accusation from Striker that they would have considered the caterer would have been a bad man if he'd done that.
Yes point taken, but you know as someone who travels First Class a lot in the UK when I am here - simply because I can work in there - I do get rather peeved at the number of people who do try to buck the system and travel First on Standard Class tickets. This is especially the case when the warm food in the evening tends to run out and you can be pretty certain that a number of people who have "appeared" since the TM went through are on Standard Class tickets but taking advantage of the food to the detriment of genuine First Class passengers.

The Coventry Corridor is an absolute pain in the arse for this in the evening peak, and although the do not get food they do clog up the aisles and vestibules simply to gain a couple of minutes at the exits at International or New St.

People KNOW it is wrong but still try it on. On some longer distance Virgin trains, the TM never bothers with First Class after say Stockport/Stoke and people do "wander down" and sit in First taking a gamble that they will get away with it. Often they seem to because the TM sits in his little office oblivious to the fact.
 

jon0844

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What upsets me more isn't the mere fact that some people upgraded to first class illegally, but the way it's defended or considered a minor issue and not worth worrying/moaning about. Yet, if that's the attitude taken about this - what about other things? What about the message to the kids that upgrading is fine.. setting by example and all that.

Nobody can enforce every single law, so they must be followed by consent - but now we seem to have a generation (or two) that pick and choose what laws to obey.

Sure, nobody is whiter than white - but I am sure many people do try and do the right thing all the time, so even petty things like dropping litter aren't considered even if you know there's nobody around.
 

TomJ93

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I think if you're the sort of free-loading parasite to sit in first class without a ticket you wouldn't think twice about accepting free drinks

I've sat in LM 1st before to charge my phone, if I was on a long journey with VT without a seat I would sit in 1st and turn down drinks.
 

Old Timer

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That makes it aright :|
Oh yes absolutely, Old Chap, you see what TomJ93 wants he will take irrespectively of whther he is entitled to it or whether or not he should pay for it. WE are only a short step away from walking out of a shop with something.

Sadly yet another example of the Society we have now become in recent years.

Selfish, arogant, uncaring, and interested only in complying with any form of rules that suit the individual on a selective basis.

TomJ93 said:
..I've sat in LM 1st before to charge my phone, if I was on a long journey with VT without a seat I would sit in 1st and turn down drinks....
And what about the person who actually HAS a valid First Class ticket who may want to use the power socket ? Someone whio may have paid more so that they can actually use a laptop for instance ?

As for the seat if it is that important then reserve one - You will be glad to know they are FREE, yes FREE !!!!



Actually the good thing about this type of thread is that it providesd ample support of evidence against those who argue about the attitudes of Railway staff on here, who they always accuse of treating passengers like Criminals. Well a good example of WHY Railway staff tend towards holding such views.
 

ralphchadkirk

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It seems perfectly simple to me. If you haven't got a first class ticket, then just don't go in first class! (unless walking through or similar). Is that too difficult to grasp?
 

Failed Unit

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It seems perfectly simple to me. If you haven't got a first class ticket, then just don't go in first class! (unless walking through or similar). Is that too difficult to grasp?

My grey area is standing. The train is wedged full surely it isn't that bad to stand in 1st class so others can physically board. Although to be honest in that situation the gaurd (if one exists) declassifies or on doo routes the inspectors don't bother. It is annoying however in that situation when you have paid 1st class and can't get a seat because standard passengers have grabbed them. I don't mind them standing in first but taking the seats is different.
 

CarterUSM

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If somebody is going to post what they did on a public forum then they have to expect people to comment. And by turning a blind eye generally to stuff that you see as "none of your business" is just making it socially acceptable.



No, I don't work for virgin, and never travel with them, therefore I just couldn't care less.
 

jon0844

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My grey area is standing. The train is wedged full surely it isn't that bad to stand in 1st class so others can physically board. Although to be honest in that situation the gaurd (if one exists) declassifies or on doo routes the inspectors don't bother. It is annoying however in that situation when you have paid 1st class and can't get a seat because standard passengers have grabbed them. I don't mind them standing in first but taking the seats is different.

If the train is so crowded that you need to move into first to allow people on, that's possibly acceptable - if you then stand in first class only until such time that you can move out again.

However, what tends to happen is people move in and then, after a short time, perch themselves down on the arm rest.. then think 'sod it' and sit down. Get away with that often enough and soon you're upgrading from the outset.

And, in many cases, people upgrade even when there are seats in standard - it's just that they don't wish to walk through the train, or ask people to move their bags/coats. And, of course, there are those who simply won't move down the aisle at all.

Still, in this case, the train clearly wasn't overcrowded.
 

tbtc

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Oh yes absolutely, Old Chap, you see what TomJ93 wants he will take irrespectively of whther he is entitled to it or whether or not he should pay for it. WE are only a short step away from walking out of a shop with something.

Sadly yet another example of the Society we have now become in recent years.

Selfish, arogant, uncaring, and interested only in complying with any form of rules that suit the individual on a selective basis

Surely it's okay to shoplift as long as you were prepared to hand it back if challenged?

(going by other people's logic...<D)
 

scotsman

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I like how a lot of these people who're talking about 'upgrading' themselves are the very same who criticise staff for sitting in 1st Class, even when offered by a Guard!
 

Striker

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It was specifically in response to the accusation from Striker that they would have considered the caterer would have been a bad man if he'd done that.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Er, I suggest you check who actually said that, because it certainly wasn't me! :roll:

And it's very easy for you to say "let he who is without sin....." blah, blah, as other people MUST be just as bad, right?
 
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Old Timer

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If the train is so crowded that you need to move into first to allow people on, that's possibly acceptable - if you then stand in first class only until such time that you can move out again..
First Class starts at the gangway connection or at the doorway if internal.

People standing in First Class without a First Class ticket is not acceptable simply because the train is overcrowded. On Virgin the TM will usually make them move and stand in the aisles in Standard or will declassify G and let them travel in there.

It is also not particularly easy for First Class passengers to work or use their laptops if others are standing by the table or worse still trying to read documents and screens.

Passengers travelling first class do so because of the extra space and the fact that they can usually work on confidential documents without the contents ending up in the Sun or the Mirror the next day.
 

Striker

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I've sat in LM 1st before to charge my phone,

Then you'd be in the wrong and quite rightly called a criminal.

if I was on a long journey with VT without a seat I would sit in 1st and turn down drinks.

Oh, well what an honourable person you are!


I think it's indicative of society nowadays that this is even up for debate. There's nothing to debate, quite simply. Travel in First only if you have a first class ticket. Easy.
 
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Failed Unit

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First Class starts at the gangway connection or at the doorway if internal.

People standing in First Class without a First Class ticket is not acceptable simply because the train is overcrowded. On Virgin the TM will usually make them move and stand in the aisles in Standard or will declassify G and let them travel in there.

It is also not particularly easy for First Class passengers to work or use their laptops if others are standing by the table or worse still trying to read documents and screens.

Passengers travelling first class do so because of the extra space and the fact that they can usually work on confidential documents without the contents ending up in the Sun or the Mirror the next day.

That is true for inter-city operators it is rare a train is that overcrowded you can't all stand in standard. I have known it once when the wires were down so everyone heading to the Northwest needed to head to Sheffield to get to Manchester. In that case I was stood in the doorway of first class so I suppose I was technically not in first, just the vestival. But many had to stand in first as it was in effect 3 train loads of passengers that should have been heading out of euston.

On the commuter routes it is more likely to happen. For example when a multiple unit is short formed 1/2 length people need to use all the space they can. I think in this case it would be more wrong to leave people on platforms than stand in first. If the train in question is 375 it is hard to tell the difference anyway.

On Scotrail if the train is that overcrowded it typically gets declassified anyway. I understand on TPE overcrowding is also frequently bad enough that people need to stand in first between Manchester and Bolton. Again in those situations the gaurd normally declassified first.
 

jon0844

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I only said you could move into First Class to let people on/off, then move back out at the earliest opportunity - not perch down, then sit down, then take your coat off, get the laptop out (and charge it) etc.. and we'd be talking one seriously cramped train - and not so much an Intercity service but more a commuter service where FC is likely just a different carpet and a bigger seat (and little else).

I totally agree about it being hard to do anything when people are standing in the aisle with bags and coats dangling by your face - as happened when I was on a FCC 377/5 (we'd upgraded to FC, with hindsight I wonder why!) and commuters all upgraded themselves until they got off at East Croydon.

Still, I've also heard people caught in first class (on a FCC 317/1) stating that it was so poor that they didn't regard it as first class - despite having seen the signs!
 

Failed Unit

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The have a point about the 317/1 ;). I have commented many times that the 317/6 where better in standard than the 317/1 are in first. In fact the 365 is better in standard that the 317/1 is in first.

I know it is still first to give people a better chance of getting a seat. In the electostars on south eastern it is exactly the same but if you are paying more the very least you want is a better chance of a seat - hence why my blood boils when I pay more and don't get one or standard class passengers use it and get away with it.
 

Old Timer

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The have a point about the 317/1 ;). I have commented many times that the 317/6 where better in standard than the 317/1 are in first. In fact the 365 is better in standard that the 317/1 is in first.

I know it is still first to give people a better chance of getting a seat. In the electostars on south eastern it is exactly the same but if you are paying more the very least you want is a better chance of a seat - hence why my blood boils when I pay more and don't get one or standard class passengers use it and get away with it.
I think you will find that you can claim a refund of the difference in such situations.

In the longer term only concerted campaign of letters, complaints, and claims will move them to action.
 
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