Go Cornwall Bus

[richw]

Another thing to note that the P&R is stated as the council taking the revenue risk, which we knew anyway, so I deduce that for the TfC work the operator takes the risk. This would explain the recent assertion that GCB is losing vast sums of money.

It looks like on some routes the subsidy is, by raw calculations, close to 100% Of Estimated operating cost on the route whereas on others it’s clearly nowhere near.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

Timetable changes next Sunday according to traveline yet nothing announced by the company themselves. Wonder when we will hear about them. People need to plan getting to work etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

It looks like on some routes the subsidy is, by raw calculations, close to 100% Of Estimated operating cost on the route whereas on others it’s clearly nowhere near.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

Timetable changes next Sunday according to traveline yet nothing announced by the company themselves. Wonder when we will hear about them. People need to plan getting to work etc.

Letting the public know when or where buses run doesn't seem to be high on TfC's agenda.

 

[richw]

Letting the public know when or where buses run doesn't seem to be high on TfC's agenda.

Maybe the master plan. Nobody use them an excuse to cut the funding by the council.

Completely hypothetical but if council funding was cut as seen in other areas, the first kernow network and a couple of Summercourt travel routes would be all that remained

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Letting the public know when or where buses run doesn't seem to be high on TfC's agenda.

Maybe the master plan. Nobody use them an excuse to cut the funding by the council.

Completely hypothetical but if council funding was cut as seen in other areas, the first kernow network and a couple of Summercourt travel routes would be all that remained

It's cock-up not conspiracy.

They have a £23.5m pot of money for the Fares reduction and the devolution deal means the funding for the bus services is already there.

As for the 100% of operating cost or not, on some routes, there will be a) interworking of resources so not all cost will be on a tender and b) some were existing routes so the revenue figures will be available.

 

[Accelerator59]

I saw an Optare Solo SR heading into Truro earlier in TfC colours but the number plate was B5 PCV which is probably a Hopley’s bus and looks like it’s replaced a 2003 Optare. Thought it could of been one of the WK11 Optares which WG used to have but after checking on Gov.uk, it was registered in 2012.

 

[richw]

The devolution deal didn’t produce revenue for tendered bus services. It produced capital, which apparently is now pretty much spent.
The bus service tender required the Council's cabinet to agree to meet a substantial revenue overspend for the whole of the contract.
The budget for tendered bus services is not ring fenced so has to be vulnerable to review in the current and foreseeable Local Government financial landscape, especially if and when someone, post Covid, delves into the value for money it is providing.
The contract, while 8 years with a half way review, contains a 6 month termination clause that can be applied at any point without any form of compensation to the operator.
The revenue risk on the tender lies with Plymouth Citybus. It’s not unreasonable to surmise that revenue will not return to the level they based their tender prices on, and that once the current central government financial support ends, Cornwall Council will not be in a position to further fund a revenue shortfall if they were requested to do so by Plymouth Citybus.
It’s fair to conclude therefore, without any need to be partisan, that the delivery of the eight year contract and its content will face significant pressures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2020 ==

I saw an Optare Solo SR heading into Truro earlier in TfC colours but the number plate was B5 PCV which is probably a Hopley’s bus and looks like it’s replaced a 2003 Optare. Thought it could of been one of the WK11 Optares which WG used to have but after checking on Gov.uk, it was registered in 2012.

It’s a 62 plate, can’t recall the original spec. The 03 plate it replaces on B5 blew its engine

 

[MotCO]

The devolution deal didn’t produce revenue for tendered bus services. It produced capital, which apparently is now pretty much spent.
The bus service tender required the Council's cabinet to agree to meet a substantial revenue overspend for the whole of the contract.
The budget for tendered bus services is not ring fenced so has to be vulnerable to review in the current and foreseeable Local Government financial landscape, especially if and when someone, post Covid, delves into the value for money it is providing.
The contract, while 8 years with a half way review, contains a 6 month termination clause that can be applied at any point without any form of compensation to the operator.
The revenue risk on the tender lies with Plymouth Citybus. It’s not unreasonable to surmise that revenue will not return to the level they based their tender prices on, and that once the current central government financial support ends, Cornwall Council will not be in a position to further fund a revenue shortfall if they were requested to do so by Plymouth Citybus.
It’s fair to conclude therefore, without any need to be partisan, that the delivery of the eight year contract and its content will face significant pressures.

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then I think that it could leave the bus services in a sorry state. I think that there are three factors which could minimise the risk:

1. I assume that the capital from the devolution deal paid for the new Council-owned buses, and thus there is no need to 'rent' them to Go-Cornwall (or any of the other bidders) and therefore the revenue cost to Go-Cornwall for those services would be less than they would otherwise have been. Therefore some services may be more sustainable than would otherwise have been the case.
2. The reputational loss to the Council in ending a contract early would be catastrophic. Who would want to tender for any bus services in Cornwall if there was a real risk of another early termination? Any tenderer would have to factor that into the price of the tender, so the cost of tenders would increase.
3. Would Go-Cornwall be interested in any new tenders? They would have the buses and drivers available (mostly!), but once bitten, twice shy and all that. First Kernow have already redeployed a lot of their buses and drivers so would not be in an easy position to take over. I'm not sure that there would be too many companies interested in a new tender, so the Council may decide that it has to honour at least 4 years of the contract.

 

[richw]

The reputational loss to the Council in ending a contract early would be catastrophic. Who would want to tender for any bus services in Cornwall if there was a real risk of another early termination? Any tenderer would have to factor that into the price of the tender, so the cost of tenders would increase.

It wasn’t long ago they terminated western greyhound 1 year into a multi year contract, so they’ve history.
I’m also led to believe the council officer behind the current tender is due to retire imminently. Will his replacement pick up on poor value for money and act?

 

[MotCO]

It wasn’t long ago they terminated western greyhound 1 year into a multi year contract, so they’ve history.

But was that for poor performance, so not such a surprise to Western Greyhound? Having the rug pulled from underneath you is slightly different.

 

[Lizard1324]

The devolution deal didn’t produce revenue for tendered bus services. It produced capital, which apparently is now pretty much spent.
The bus service tender required the Council's cabinet to agree to meet a substantial revenue overspend for the whole of the contract.
The budget for tendered bus services is not ring fenced so has to be vulnerable to review in the current and foreseeable Local Government financial landscape, especially if and when someone, post Covid, delves into the value for money it is providing.
The contract, while 8 years with a half way review, contains a 6 month termination clause that can be applied at any point without any form of compensation to the operator.
The revenue risk on the tender lies with Plymouth Citybus. It’s not unreasonable to surmise that revenue will not return to the level they based their tender prices on, and that once the current central government financial support ends, Cornwall Council will not be in a position to further fund a revenue shortfall if they were requested to do so by Plymouth Citybus.
It’s fair to conclude therefore, without any need to be partisan, that the delivery of the eight year contract and its content will face significant pressures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2020 ==



It’s a 62 plate, can’t recall the original spec. The 03 plate it replaces on B5 blew its engine

If cc did pull the plug after 6 months who would run the services as first now have many more school services so they would be able to run them without taking on more drivers.
And for buses they would be given the 18 plate enviros which they previously had but what about the newer enviros and the undelivered 400s are they owned by go ahead or cornwall Council

 

[richw]

If cc did pull the plug after 6 months who would run the services as first now have many more school services so they would be able to run them without taking on more drivers.

All hypothetical. They could decide a route only needs 2 hourly, or not required at all rather than axing the whole thing.
For example The 28 is a clear waste of tax payers money, every part of it crosses through a mix of other routes, except the far end of St Blazey to Lostwithiel. It covers part of the 27 to bethel, the 30 to Holmbush, and the 24 from Holmbush to The far end of St Blazey. There is very few residents between st Blazey and lostwithiel.
Lostwithiel to st Austell is now covered by more frequent train services too.

 

[Lizard1324]

All hypothetical. They could decide a route only needs 2 hourly, or not required at all rather than axing the whole thing.
For example The 28 is a clear waste of tax payers money, every part of it crosses through a mix of other routes, except the far end of St Blazey to Lostwithiel. It covers part of the 27 to bethel, the 30 to Holmbush, and the 24 from Holmbush to The far end of St Blazey. There is very few residents between st Blazey and lostwithiel.
Lostwithiel to st Austell is now covered by more frequent train services too.

So they can stop funding for a particular route rather then the whole contract?
So hypothetically if first kernow started the L1 from lizard - helston - truro there would be a bus to the lizard every 30 mins they would stop the funding for the tfc 34 from lizard to helston as it wouldn't be necessary and remove some of the funding from the tfc 36 from helston to truro as it would be necessary, just as an example.

 

[Busaholic]

The Citybus Dart working the 2 today had to resort to a printed figure 2 at the bottom of the windscreen: unsurprisingly, it carried no passengers leaving Pz bus stn shortly after 2 p.m.

 

[M803UYA]

If cc did pull the plug after 6 months who would run the services as first now have many more school services so they would be able to run them without taking on more drivers.
And for buses they would be given the 18 plate enviros which they previously had but what about the newer enviros and the undelivered 400s are they owned by go ahead or cornwall Council

But was that for poor performance, so not such a surprise to Western Greyhound? Having the rug pulled from underneath you is slightly different.

Not really FK's problem if CC pulls the plug. I can see why FK's bid wouldn't have been attractive to CC - you would have difficulty selling such a contract with no compensation and a 6 month notice period to high ups, Go Ahead have of course!
FK wouldn't have to 'accept' the 18 reg Enviro 200s either, if they were the only operator standing they could dictate terms to CC, especially under short notice provisions. As history has shown, FK did step in the wake of WG's demise, so I'm sure they'd look to operate some of the work.
All very hypothetical as Rich W says.

I could be wrong, but wasn't the longer term contract WG had going back to 2012 when FK bid for the work on the basis of fully depreciated stock? There was a retendering exercise in 2014, in which WG won a number of routes under a package bid, which were still in operation when they closed in 2015. I'm not so sure they'd been removed from that contract (despite the known operational issues) by 2015 when they ceased operating.

 

[Goldfish62]

If cc did pull the plug after 6 months who would run the services as first now have many more school services so they would be able to run them without taking on more drivers.
And for buses they would be given the 18 plate enviros which they previously had but what about the newer enviros and the undelivered 400s are they owned by go ahead or cornwall Council

There is the nuclear option where all the services are simply withdrawn without replacement. Funding of bus services is not a legal requirement and indeed some councils have pulled funding altogether over recent years.

Regarding the newly acquired buses, the most obvious scenario is that GSW have leased them from ADL for eight years with a four year break clause.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then I think that it could leave the bus services in a sorry state. I think that there are three factors which could minimise the risk:

1. I assume that the capital from the devolution deal paid for the new Council-owned buses, and thus there is no need to 'rent' them to Go-Cornwall (or any of the other bidders) and therefore the revenue cost to Go-Cornwall for those services would be less than they would otherwise have been. Therefore some services may be more sustainable than would otherwise have been the case.
2. The reputational loss to the Council in ending a contract early would be catastrophic. Who would want to tender for any bus services in Cornwall if there was a real risk of another early termination? Any tenderer would have to factor that into the price of the tender, so the cost of tenders would increase.
3. Would Go-Cornwall be interested in any new tenders? They would have the buses and drivers available (mostly!), but once bitten, twice shy and all that. First Kernow have already redeployed a lot of their buses and drivers so would not be in an easy position to take over. I'm not sure that there would be too many companies interested in a new tender, so the Council may decide that it has to honour at least 4 years of the contract.

This is all very hypothetical. Whilst the Growth Deal funding is for capital expenditure, the fact that it has been used to improve infrastructure etc and then there is the money for the fares reduction pilot, and that CC have put so much store into improving services, I simply cannot see wholesale cuts to the bus network. That is where reputational damage to the councillors would hit; can you imagine the publicity where they've invested in infrastructure and fleet, have the money for a fare reduction but have to slash masses of routes.... Just can't see it happening.

Certainly, if some cuts were to be made, saving £142k from one bus on the 176 would be a start and would inconvenience no-one. You could easily trim out some of the other more extravagant tenders (as @richw highlighted) and probably save a £1m at a stroke. Dare I say it, where councils have been cash strapped in the past, Park and Ride services have lost out (Swindon, Worcester, Taunton) so may not be in FK's interest to see funds cut too much.

However, given where bus services and LAs are, these are issues that are not confined to Cornwall.

Were cuts to be made to routes, then I'm sure that redeployment within Go Ahead would be an option if they're not leased (and can return the 16 ex Kernow e200s anyway to CC).

 

[richw]

TfC have announced on Facebook numerous services cancelled to public so they can supply adequate school transport to meet their school and college demand.

Yet another lack of regard to passengers with some services now seeing a 4 hour gap in public services. The pulled services include rush hour journeys!
I’d like to say why didn’t they take FKs approach and source additional vehicles but the answer is obvious they haven’t adequate staff to drive them.

 

[Trainfan061193]

TfC have announced on Facebook numerous services cancelled to public so they can supply adequate school transport to meet their school and college demand.

Yet another lack of regard to passengers with some services now seeing a 4 hour gap in public services. The pulled services include rush hour journeys!
I’d like to say why didn’t they take FKs approach and source additional vehicles but the answer is obvious they haven’t adequate staff to drive them.

Another reason why whenever I’m in Cornwall I try to travel with FK wherever possible!

 

[Busaholic]

TfC have announced on Facebook numerous services cancelled to public so they can supply adequate school transport to meet their school and college demand.

Yet another lack of regard to passengers with some services now seeing a 4 hour gap in public services. The pulled services include rush hour journeys!
I’d like to say why didn’t they take FKs approach and source additional vehicles but the answer is obvious they haven’t adequate staff to drive them.

Not having access to Facebook, could you let us know the worst (in your opinion, obviously) of these cancellations, e.g. where a new 4 hour gap will appear.

 

[MarkC]

Another reason why whenever I’m in Cornwall I try to travel with FK wherever possible!

They Go Cornwall are shocking, FK much better. I just hope CC have some kind of get out clause as this whole TFC thing is fast becoming the joke everyone other than CC and Go Ahead knew it would be! Plymouth city council plesse take note and keep your contracts with Stagecoach!

 

[richw]

Not having access to Facebook, could you let us know the worst (in your opinion, obviously) of these cancellations, e.g. where a new 4 hour gap will appear.

Was the 95 0723/0753 boscatle to Wadebridge, around 1500 return are now closed door. There’s around 15-20 services in total showing closed door now with no public replacement

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

They Go Cornwall are shocking, FK much better. I just hope CC have some kind of get out clause as this whole TFC thing is fast becoming the joke everyone other than CC and Go Ahead knew it would be! Plymouth city council plesse take note and keep your contracts with Stagecoach!

As per my post the other day. The council can serve a 6 month notice period without compensation due.

 

[Ian10]

Details also on the TfC website

 

[MarkC]

Was the 95 0723/0753 boscatle to Wadebridge, around 1500 return are now closed door. There’s around 15-20 services in total showing closed door now with no public replacement

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==


As per my post the other day. The council can serve a 6 month notice period without compensation due.

God can't be long surely? Mind you whom would take over? I don't think First will be too bothered coming to rescue as seem to be doing ok without it and margins are probably too tight, they are perhaps better placed than Go Ahead to know that!

 

[richw]

God can't be long surely? Mind you whom would take over? I don't think First will be too bothered coming to rescue as seem to be doing ok without it and margins are probably too tight, they are perhaps better placed than Go Ahead to know that!

Based on the massive drop in passengers the tenders will be returning a massive loss without a massive increase in funding. They were already considerably over budget

 

[MarkC]

Based on the massive drop in passengers the tenders will be returning a massive loss without a massive increase in funding. They were already considerably over budget

Whom takes the hit on that CC or Citybus GA?

 

[Busaholic]

It looks like it's becoming crunch time with TfC - the Covid-led reasons for inadequacies won't pass muster for too much longer, and will start looking like mere excuses. I have some (but decreasing) sympathy with Go-Ahead but any enduring sympathies with Cornwall Council are obviously misplaced and it's becoming time for them to get a public bollocking unless they get their act together within the next three weeks max, which is looking increasingly unlikely.

Time perhaps to mention a Radio 4 programme 'The Patch', the latest episode of which was broadcast this week. The concept of the programme is simple - each week a postcode (minus the last letter) is randomly generated by a computer and the presenter brings a story or two from that small area. I've found it a (mostly) fascinating series over the three or four years it's been on air. Anyway, this week the postcode brought the reporter to an area of Camborne, and quite a proportion of the programme was devoted to what proved to be a trueism, that many young people in Camborne, located only three or four miles from the sea, had never visited or even seen it! This led to an interview with an 'agency bus driver' working in the area, originally from the USA but having worked in the role all over the world for the last thirty years, who was staggered at the apparent insularity of many of the local population, but thought part of the explanation was easily the highest bus fares in the world he'd come across, citing the £4.60 between Camborne and Truro as an example. Disclaimer= I haven't tried to check the veracity of this, but that was broadcast.

 

[carlberry]

They Go Cornwall are shocking, FK much better. I just hope CC have some kind of get out clause as this whole TFC thing is fast becoming the joke everyone other than CC and Go Ahead knew it would be! Plymouth city council plesse take note and keep your contracts with Stagecoach!

If buses are being changed like this (into school buses) the change must be at the request of the council. Go Ahead are just a contractor, they are not going to be going around making changes without the person who's paying is asking them to.

 

[Whiteway215]

Was it not on 31 August that some of the drivers' contracts were ending ?

 

[Goldfish62]

Whom takes the hit on that CC or Citybus GA?

The revenue risk lies with GSW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

TfC have announced on Facebook numerous services cancelled to public so they can supply adequate school transport to meet their school and college demand.

Yet another lack of regard to passengers with some services now seeing a 4 hour gap in public services. The pulled services include rush hour journeys!
I’d like to say why didn’t they take FKs approach and source additional vehicles but the answer is obvious they haven’t adequate staff to drive them.

This practice is being used across the country, including London (where some high frequency routes will operate as every other bus reserved for school kids), from next week. However, I have no idea whether elsewhere such huge gaps in service are being created.

 

[MarkC]

The revenue risk lies with GSW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==


This practice is being used across the country, including London (where some high frequency routes will operate as every other bus reserved for school kids), from next week. However, I have no idea whether elsewhere such huge gaps in service are being created.

Stagecoach Devon don't seem to have these issues. Even with the closed services there still don't seem to be huge gaps in public services