Go Cornwall Bus

[richw]

Stagecoach Devon don't seem to have these issues. Even with the closed services there still don't seem to be huge gaps in public services

First kernow have sourced additional vehicles to run extras rather than cut anything

 

[Lizard1324]

saw a plymouth city coach ( I think there called) on driver training with a learner around redruth so I'm assuming it is for school contracts in cornwall

 

[MotCO]

saw a plymouth city coach ( I think there called) on driver training with a learner around redruth so I'm assuming it is for school contracts in cornwall

Maybe some of the older schoolchildren can drive the school buses

 

[Lizard1324]

Maybe some of the older schoolchildren can drive the school buses

At least the school children know the areas the crash rate would be halved

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If buses are being changed like this (into school buses) the change must be at the request of the council. Go Ahead are just a contractor, they are not going to be going around making changes without the person who's paying is asking them to.

Stagecoach Devon don't seem to have these issues. Even with the closed services there still don't seem to be huge gaps in public services

First kernow have sourced additional vehicles to run extras rather than cut anything

Surely the issue/difference lies with the local authorities?

Most of what First Kernow are operating is commercial? Stagecoach Devon are in another local authority area.

Go Cornwall (aside from a bit of Praa Sands madness) are doing as they are told to do by their client, Cornwall Council, as @carlberry states. It's not a like for like comparison.

Now, do we know if CC have enquired if GCB can operate more (though we all know they don't have the staff to cover what they already have)? Also, we're getting a lot of stuff about revenue risk etc. Well looking at some of those tenders, like the £142k for the 176, that's all the money anyway. It may well be that they low balled the revenue anyway, especially on the untried and untested flights of fancy from CC.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely the issue/difference lies with the local authorities?

Most of what First Kernow are operating is commercial? Stagecoach Devon are in another local authority area.

Go Cornwall (aside from a bit of Praa Sands madness) are doing as they are told to do by their client, Cornwall Council, as @carlberry states. It's not a like for like comparison.

Now, do we know if CC have enquired if GCB can operate more (though we all know they don't have the staff to cover what they already have)? Also, we're getting a lot of stuff about revenue risk etc. Well looking at some of those tenders, like the £142k for the 176, that's all the money anyway. It may well be that they low balled the revenue anyway, especially on the untried and untested flights of fancy from CC.

There's also the point that even if GSW were able to source additional vehicles and drivers a price would need to be agreed with the council. If that couldn't be agreed then the extra journeys wouldn't operate.

 

[richw]

Surely the issue/difference lies with the local authorities?

Most of what First Kernow are operating is commercial? Stagecoach Devon are in another local authority area.

Go Cornwall (aside from a bit of Praa Sands madness) are doing as they are told to do by their client, Cornwall Council, as @carlberry states. It's not a like for like comparison.

Now, do we know if CC have enquired if GCB can operate more (though we all know they don't have the staff to cover what they already have)? Also, we're getting a lot of stuff about revenue risk etc. Well looking at some of those tenders, like the £142k for the 176, that's all the money anyway. It may well be that they low balled the revenue anyway, especially on the untried and untested flights of fancy from CC.

First kernow operate a considerable number of school contracts for first kernow. Many of those were originally on service runs are now being supplied closed services. This must have involved liaison with CC!
The reality is GCB don’t have enough drivers or vehicles to operate duplicates

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First kernow operate a considerable number of school contracts for first kernow. Many of those were originally on service runs are now being supplied closed services. This must have involved liaison with CC!
The reality is GCB don’t have enough drivers or vehicles to operate duplicates

As I said, we know that GCB can't cover what they have now (in terms of drivers) but the singular point is that GCB must have agreed all this with CC; GCB won't have done this unilaterally.

There's also the point that even if GSW were able to source additional vehicles and drivers a price would need to be agreed with the council. If that couldn't be agreed then the extra journeys wouldn't operate.

Indeed, and if @richw is correct in his assertion that CC have no additional funds to support services anyhow, then they can't pay for them and even if they could, then GCB couldn't man them anyhow. There would be the option of getting additional school journeys operated by independents and coach firms (if they could find the drivers).

 

[richw]

As I said, we know that GCB can't cover what they have now (in terms of drivers) but the singular point is that GCB must have agreed all this with CC; GCB won't have done this unilaterally.

They have indeed agreed with CC, which makes CC showing a disregard to those passengers too

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, and if @richw There would be the option of getting additional school journeys operated by independents and coach firms (if they could find the drivers).

That would require the council to actually do something...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

A local authority chum has reminded me that the government has provided specific funding to run school bus extras, so what exactly has CC done with this money?

 

[MotCO]

That would require the council to actually do something...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

A local authority chum has reminded me that the government has provided specific funding to run school bus extras, so what exactly has CC done with this money?

Is it the case that CC regard Go-Ahead as the first contact for any new routes or changes (or 'operator of first resort'), and for whatever reason, Go-Ahead don't want to say No? It may be that Go-Ahead don't want First Kernow having the opportunity to expand their services at their expense.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it the case that CC regard Go-Ahead as the first contact for any new routes or changes (or 'operator of first resort'), and for whatever reason, Go-Ahead don't want to say No? It may be that Go-Ahead don't want First Kernow having the opportunity to expand their services at their expense.

These are existing tendered services operated by Go Ahead with a significant school element. The option would be for Go Ahead to provide additional capacity with dupes but they’re already short of staff so not an option. The other option is for another operator to be contracted to do school runs, otherwise you have what is happening in that CC have instructed GCB to make these into closed school journeys.

 

[richw]

That would require the council to actually do something...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

A local authority chum has reminded me that the government has provided specific funding to run school bus extras, so what exactly has CC done with this money?

There is a scenario that no one has pondered yet...

What if CC refused to use DfE monies to fund closed school contract duplicates for school flows on Kernow commercial routes and instead asked Kernow to close the journeys to the public ... but Kernow refused to do so because it would remove peak time travel opportunities for the public ... and have been forced instead to have to operate public duplicates and claim the cost back from CBSSGR2 instead.

This is Cornwall Council we are talking about!

 

[MB162435]

TfC's new timetables have been released online, interestingly the early morning and late night Tinners are in it as TfC operated services

 

[farwest]

I noticed in Penzance today one of the Cornwall council Enviro 200 [WK18 reg] now red with big body damage on near side by rear wheel. Made to look very smart with black tape blowing in the wind.
What is happening to these newish and new buses is an absolute disgrace. Not impressed with anything Go bus and TFC are doing at the moment.

 

[Lizard1324]

I noticed in Penzance today one of the Cornwall council Enviro 200 [WK18 reg] now red with big body damage on near side by rear wheel. Made to look very smart with black tape blowing in the wind.
What is happening to these newish and new buses is an absolute disgrace. Not impressed with anything Go bus and TFC are doing at the moment.

Many people have the same opinion and I havent seen a new 20 plate enviro 200 in a while on the 34 (not saying they don't work this route just gone from always 4 to 1 a day) and all im seeing it 03 and 05 plate darts but they don't have many injuries compared to the new ones.

 

[Busaholic]

Even if GCB had the buses (and drivers) to expand their fleet, would the Cormac depots masquerading as bus depots be able to (a) physically hold them and (b) service them properly? Even if the answer to those questions were in the affirmative, what extra charges might Cormac/Corserv impose, even if these were in fact to be paid by Cormac/Corserv's ultimate owner, Cornwall Council?

 

[richw]

TfC's new timetables have been released online, interestingly the early morning and late night Tinners are in it as TfC operated services

Traveline doesn’t have First starting the late Camborne - Truro and late U4 until 14 sept

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

Even if GCB had the buses (and drivers) to expand their fleet, would the Cormac depots masquerading as bus depots be able to (a) physically hold them and (b) service them properly? Even if the answer to those questions were in the affirmative, what extra charges might Cormac/Corserv impose, even if these were in fact to be paid by Cormac/Corserv's ultimate owner, Cornwall Council?

After further research I can confirm that Cornwall council told both first and ga to cancel public services to accommodate closed school services. One said yes, the other said no way are we inconveniencing our passengers and has bought in any bus they can get their hands on to run dupes

 

[MB162435]

Traveline doesn’t have First starting the late Camborne - Truro and late U4 until 14 sept

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

Ah right, so Kernow and TfC have different start dates to their September timetables?

 

[Busaholic]

Traveline doesn’t have First starting the late Camborne - Truro and late U4 until 14 sept

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==




After further research I can confirm that Cornwall council told both first and ga to cancel public services to accommodate closed school services. One said yes, the other said no way are we inconveniencing our passengers and has bought in any bus they can get their hands on to run dupes

I can't see any basis on which Cornwall Council could tell First to cancel public services that the latter choose to run on a commercial footing: on the face of it it'd be impropriety, unless in these strange and unsettling times the usual legalities can be waved aside, which wouldn't altogether surprise me.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can't see any basis on which Cornwall Council could tell First to cancel public services that the latter choose to run on a commercial footing: on the face of it it'd be impropriety, unless in these strange and unsettling times the usual legalities can be waved aside, which wouldn't altogether surprise me.

Quite simply, they couldn’t tell FK. They are commercial services. They can ask, FK can refuse, that’s what happened.

However, as GCB are merely a contractor to the council, then CC can tell them. It’s a fundamental difference. FK have a choice, GCB don’t.

 

[Stan Drews]

Quite simply, they couldn’t tell FK. They are commercial services. They can ask, FK can refuse, that’s what happened.

However, as GCB are merely a contractor to the council, then CC can tell them. It’s a fundamental difference. FK have a choice, GCB don’t.

But that wouldn’t fit with some people’s narrative!

 

[richw]

Quite simply, they couldn’t tell FK. They are commercial services. They can ask, FK can refuse, that’s what happened.

However, as GCB are merely a contractor to the council, then CC can tell them. It’s a fundamental difference. FK have a choice, GCB don’t.

For those commercial services contracted to carry school children then they are a contractor.
There is DfE funding to provide the closed door duplicates that Cornwall
Council are failing to utilise

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

For those commercial services contracted to carry school children then they are a contractor.
There is DfE funding to provide the closed door duplicates that Cornwall
Council are failing to utilise

The situation still remains. FK have a choice; Go Ahead don’t.

 

[M803UYA]

For those commercial services contracted to carry school children then they are a contractor.
There is DfE funding to provide the closed door duplicates that Cornwall
Council are failing to utilise

I think the situation you're describing is one where FK is running commercial services, and CC is buying seats/passes for entitled children on those services, rather than one where CC contracts the operator to run an entire service? FK thus retains the service, and gets revenue from CC for those passengers using the commercial route.
Rather shocking that CC isn't using the additional funding to provide closed door services though!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the situation you're describing is one where FK is running commercial services, and CC is buying seats/passes for entitled children on those services, rather than one where CC contracts the operator to run an entire service? FK thus retains the service, and gets revenue from CC for those passengers using the commercial route.
Rather shocking that CC isn't using the additional funding to provide closed door services though!

Indeed!

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the situation you're describing is one where FK is running commercial services, and CC is buying seats/passes for entitled children on those services, rather than one where CC contracts the operator to run an entire service? FK thus retains the service, and gets revenue from CC for those passengers using the commercial route.
Rather shocking that CC isn't using the additional funding to provide closed door services though!

Yes. Unlike supporting socially necessary bus services CC has a legal duty to provide adequate home to school transport. It must be questionable as to whether they're currently fulfilling this duty sufficiently.

 

[Ian10]

It is a common practice for operators to add extra journeys to regular headway services to cater for school traffic. A decision to restrict those to pupils is understandable where the regular frequency is still running. However, in Cornwall, there are several examples where journeys which form an integral part of the regular headways are being restricted to pupils. Anybody else will be faced with unacceptable gaps in service. There are examples across the county but here are some examples at Camborne:
38 to Praze-an-Beeble and Helston. Usually every two hours - now a gap from 1242 to 1657
39/39A to Leedstown and beyond. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1335 to 1535
45 to Troon. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1333 to 1543
47 to Portreath and beyond. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1330 to 1530.
I assume that Cornwall Council would prefer not to have these gaps but there is a limit to the resources that GCB can provide (shortage of buses and drivers). I wonder if they asked First Kernow to help. Some of these journeys could probably be operated prior to heading to Truro College for journeys at 1630.

 

[Stan Drews]

It is a common practice for operators to add extra journeys to regular headway services to cater for school traffic. A decision to restrict those to pupils is understandable where the regular frequency is still running. However, in Cornwall, there are several examples where journeys which form an integral part of the regular headways are being restricted to pupils. Anybody else will be faced with unacceptable gaps in service. There are examples across the county but here are some examples at Camborne:
38 to Praze-an-Beeble and Helston. Usually every two hours - now a gap from 1242 to 1657
39/39A to Leedstown and beyond. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1335 to 1535
45 to Troon. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1333 to 1543
47 to Portreath and beyond. Usually hourly - now a gap from 1330 to 1530.
I assume that Cornwall Council would prefer not to have these gaps but there is a limit to the resources that GCB can provide (shortage of buses and drivers). I wonder if they asked First Kernow to help. Some of these journeys could probably be operated prior to heading to Truro College for journeys at 1630.

If you look all across the UK you will find similar examples of gaps in afternoon timetables, while the buses cover school journeys. It’s nothing new, and has been happening for years.

 

[Goldfish62]

If you look all across the UK you will find similar examples of gaps in afternoon timetables, while the buses cover school journeys. It’s nothing new, and has been happening for years.

It's been happening for years in Cornwall as well, but the difference has been that these school journeys have been open to the public because not to do so would create large gaps in the scheduled service.

My question still stands. What has CC done with the funding provided for school journey enhancements?