GN Cambridge/Peterborough trains stopping pattern

[Envy123]

This is something I have never gotten.

The stopping trains stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and Welwyn before stopping at all stations.

I understand that Finsbury Park is a good interchange with Moorgate services and that Hatfield and Welwyn have a good amount of employers. But why Potters Bar?

It doesn't have big employers nearby (as far as I know). Is this more to do with capacity restraints or something else entirely?

 

[causton]

I think Potters Bar is bigger than you give it credit for!

It is the terminus for a few bus services and quite a few pass through from all directions, from places such as Barnet, Enfield, Waltham Cross, London Colney, South Mimms, Borehamwood etc.

It is a very commuter-heavy place but there are also industrial estates such as the Cranborne Road one and on trains which stop at Potters Bar, the stop is very well used and you would anger a lot of people removing it!

Compare it to the stations north of it (Brookmans Park and Welham Green) which are small villages, and the ones south of it (Hadley Wood is the exception, once again, a village more than a town) which have easy Tube/London Bus alternatives.

Also, operationally, there is a crossover just south of the station, so it is the first convenient place for trains to overtake the slow ones coming from Moorgate, before stopping at Potters Bar and Hatfield before continuing north.

 

[NSE]

They also act as fast services from Potters Bar heading Southbound. As regular user from Cambridge and St. Neots I very rarely take the services that stop at Potters Bar, but on the occasion I have, they are well used.

 

[bramling]

This is something I have never gotten.

The stopping trains stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and Welwyn before stopping at all stations.

I understand that Finsbury Park is a good interchange with Moorgate services and that Hatfield and Welwyn have a good amount of employers. But why Potters Bar?

It doesn't have big employers nearby (as far as I know). Is this more to do with capacity restraints or something else entirely?

Although you don't get as many boarding as at Hatfield and Welwyn GC, a fair few still board.

If the stop was removed, it could also create pathing problems on the slow lines as the faster trains would stand more chance of catching up with the all-stations ones. Some services are booked to cross slow-fast or vice versa at Potters Bar, so if they have to slow down (and possibly/probably wait for signals) then they may as well call.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the evening peak, at many services omit potters bar, but I think that is more down to crowding control. example 1752 doesn't stop but they are probably wanting passengers on the 1758.

 

[Envy123]

This clarifies it, thank you.

 

[A0]

This is something I have never gotten.

The stopping trains stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and Welwyn before stopping at all stations.

I understand that Finsbury Park is a good interchange with Moorgate services and that Hatfield and Welwyn have a good amount of employers. But why Potters Bar?

It doesn't have big employers nearby (as far as I know). Is this more to do with capacity restraints or something else entirely?

The outer / inner stopping pattern on the GN dates back to electrification at least and possibly a bit further back than that.

Certainly after electrification the basic pattern was:

Inner suburban - all stations from WGC or Hertford N to Moorgate / Kings X.

Outer stoppers - Finsbury Pk, Potters Bar, Hatfield, WGC, Welwyn Nth, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin & all stations to Royston.

Outer fasts - fast FP - Stevenage then most stations (Ashwell & Morden tended to be the one missed).

Pre-electrification there were outer suburban terminators at Hitchin, Baldock and Royston as well as Cambridge.

 

[bramling]

In the evening peak, at many services omit potters bar, but I think that is more down to crowding control. example 1752 doesn't stop but they are probably wanting passengers on the 1758.

Yes I think you're right this is more to do with loadings. In the up direction they tend to be full by the time they leave WGC or Hatfield (the earliest of the 3 2x317 morning peak services used to be fast from Hatfield, whilst the later two fast from WGC), and as you say Potters Bar has other services available. Missing Potters Bar certainly doesn't deliver any time enhancement, as the trains normally sit at signals somewhere waiting to change tracks.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes I think you're right this is more to do with loadings. In the up direction they tend to be full by the time they leave WGC or Hatfield (the earliest of the 3 2x317 morning peak services used to be fast from Hatfield, whilst the later two fast from WGC), and as you say Potters Bar has other services available. Missing Potters Bar certainly doesn't deliver any time enhancement, as the trains normally sit at signals somewhere waiting to change tracks.

Yeah I have noticed that hit and miss. If they get on the fasts at WGC it is normally good. Marshmoor you normally need to wait. Potters bar you normally need to wait before the platform for the train ahead to leave.

On the way back, the trains normally cross at Potters bar but then get stuck behind a 313 from at least Welham Green (brookmans park on a bad day)

 

[Envy123]

One other question about the stopping pattern but further north:

Why do Peterborough trains stop at all stations on the Peterborough branch, while some Cambridge trains don't stop at all stations on the Cambridge branch?

Same reasons as Potters Bar?

 

[bramling]

One other question about the stopping pattern but further north:

Why do Peterborough trains stop at all stations on the Peterborough branch, while some Cambridge trains don't stop at all stations on the Cambridge branch?

This hasn't always been so, in past timetables the faster off-peak Peterborough services have omitted Arlesey and Sandy, however this went out of fashion - presumably because it's felt that all the stations north of Hitchin are busy enough to justify 2tph including a 'fast' service to London.

The Cambridge branch is different in that Ashwell, Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton are significantly less busy than the other stations, and therefore don't justify 2tph. You'll note in the current timetable that they get additional calls at popular times, for example during the peaks and peak shoulders, and in the evenings. A further constraint is that the stations between Royston and Cambridge have always had 4-car platforms only, so 8-car trains can't call at these stations. Without any SDO stock until the 387s arrived just in the last month, stopping at these stations either constrains the entire service to 4-cars which is insufficient at certain times, or requires dividing/joining - the issues and costs associated with which are presumably felt not to be justified by the comparatively low passenger numbers.

 

[Ianno87]

One other question about the stopping pattern but further north:

Why do Peterborough trains stop at all stations on the Peterborough branch, while some Cambridge trains don't stop at all stations on the Cambridge branch?

Same reasons as Potters Bar?

The omitted stations towards Cambridge are tiny village statioms (not enough demand to really have justified 2tph historically), plus Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton platforms can only take 4-car trains. By omitting them, the semi-fast can be operated as 8-carriages.

Allstations do get a half-hourly peak service, when there is commuter/school demand to and from Cambridge.

Also, by being slightly faster, the semi-fast effectively also acts as a third hourly fast train between Cambridge and Kings Cross (with the two non-stop services)

 

[bramling]

Also, by being slightly faster, the semi-fast effectively also acts as a third hourly fast train between Cambridge and Kings Cross (with the two non-stop services)

Which is a pain for the intermediate stations, who find their service crowded with people travelling Cambridge to London, whilst being used to seeing the XX45 Cambridge to London passing through non-stop with plenty of spare space -- especially in the last couple of years when virtually all Kings Lynn trains are now at least 8 cars south of Cambridge.

 

[Hadders]

I think the Off Peak timetable on GN outer suburban is reasonably good. The timings at Stevenage give a very convenient 4 minute connection so someone wanting to travel from, say, Hatfield to Huntingdon effectively has two services an hour.

It worth noting that in the new timetable proposal a journey from Hatfield to Huntingdon could need a 23 minute wait at Stevenage!

 

[NSE]

Which is a pain for the intermediate stations, who find their service crowded with people travelling Cambridge to London, whilst being used to seeing the XX45 Cambridge to London passing through non-stop with plenty of spare space -- especially in the last couple of years when virtually all Kings Lynn trains are now at least 8 cars south of Cambridge.

I find the slows leave Cambridge very empty. Just a few local passengers for stations between Cambridge and Hitchin. All London passengers just go straight for the non-stops. They used to list the slow as only going to Finsbury Park to push passengers on to fast. I don't think they do this any more.

 

[A0]

I find the slows leave Cambridge very empty. Just a few local passengers for stations between Cambridge and Hitchin. All London passengers just go straight for the non-stops. They used to list the slow as only going to Finsbury Park to push passengers on to fast. I don't think they do this any more.

Wasn't it also because a subsequent fast would get to KX before the stopper so it avoided customer complaints about arriving later? IIRC northbound stoppers from KX used to be advertised as terminating at Foxton.

 

[Ianno87]

I find the slows leave Cambridge very empty. Just a few local passengers for stations between Cambridge and Hitchin. All London passengers just go straight for the non-stops. They used to list the slow as only going to Finsbury Park to push passengers on to fast. I don't think they do this any more.

It depends on time of day really. Saturday mornings, the xx30 semi-fasts can leave Cambridge with a decent load of passengers, particularly because the preceding 0915 and 1015 fasts (which start back at Ely/King's Lynn) only have a short dwell time (with a hefty load to board at Cambridge) and as 8-cars leave with standing passengers - the 0930 and 1030 are at least sat ready to board in the platform.

Most other times of day, Cantabridgians are conditioned to the King's Cross fasts being sat on Platform 1. The slower services are either hidden away in Platform 3, or a hefty walk over the bridge to Platform 7.

The fasts also leave both ends at quarter past and quarter to - much more memorable than the timings of other departures

 

[bramling]

I find the slows leave Cambridge very empty. Just a few local passengers for stations between Cambridge and Hitchin. All London passengers just go straight for the non-stops. They used to list the slow as only going to Finsbury Park to push passengers on to fast. I don't think they do this any more.

The all-stations ones, yes. But the XX30 certainly carry Cambridge-London passengers, as do the XX52 from London but to a lesser extent. One can spot Cambridge passengers a mile off.

 

[NSE]

It depends on time of day really. Saturday mornings, the xx30 semi-fasts can leave Cambridge with a decent load of passengers, particularly because the preceding 0915 and 1015 fasts (which start back at Ely/King's Lynn) only have a short dwell time (with a hefty load to board at Cambridge) and as 8-cars leave with standing passengers - the 0930 and 1030 are at least sat ready to board in the platform.

Most other times of day, Cantabridgians are conditioned to the King's Cross fasts being sat on Platform 1. The slower services are either hidden away in Platform 3, or a hefty walk over the bridge to Platform 7.

The fasts also leave both ends at quarter past and quarter to - much more memorable than the timings of other departures

Oh yeah I was including the xx:30 in that. They did used to have he xx:05 from Kings Cross up as Foxton but they don't seem to anymore.

 

[MikePJ]

I take the 0825 stopper from Cambridge most mornings. A couple of times a month I see someone looking quizzically at the departure board on platform 3, and they ask me if this train goes to King's Cross (they've usually just missed the 0815 express). I usually say "you can take this one, which leaves now and stops everywhere, but you'll get a seat - or you can wait 20 minutes for the express and get to London five minutes earlier". Nearly everyone chooses to take the stopper, but it's definitely confusing.

 

[TheDavibob]

The Thameslink planned timetable should slightly rectify the confusion, with semi-fasts and slows going to St Pancras and through, fasts the only ones to Kings Cross. Though this will limit London-Cambridge to the fasts only, unless you're really with it and happy to cross St Pancras Road to catch the semi-fast if you've just missed the fast.

 

[bramling]

The Thameslink planned timetable should slightly rectify the confusion, with semi-fasts and slows going to St Pancras and through, fasts the only ones to Kings Cross. Though this will limit London-Cambridge to the fasts only, unless you're really with it and happy to cross St Pancras Road to catch the semi-fast if you've just missed the fast.

Not necessarily - any Cambridge passengers who wish to travel to/from Thameslink destinations will probably use the slower Thameslink services in order to avoid a change/walk at King's Cross. This will be to the detriment of people using the intermediate stations.

 

[jon0844]

As the fast trains don't apply to me and I'm unsure how the low level platforms will cope at St Pancras, I'll be more likely to go to Finsbury Park and pick up a service there - with the added choice to take a slow from Moorgate.

Bar the worst weather, it's usually nicer to be outside than in a basement with no phone coverage and intermittent Wi-Fi.

I wonder if others will do the same, making Finsbury Park more congested as a result?

Lots of interesting side effects which perhaps weren't fully considered may present themselves in the years ahead.

 

[jopsuk]

Not necessarily - any Cambridge passengers who wish to travel to/from Thameslink destinations will probably use the slower Thameslink services in order to avoid a change/walk at King's Cross. This will be to the detriment of people using the intermediate stations.

Unless I'm specifically going to stations on the Kent branch of the service, I'll probably use a mix of the semi-fast Brighton Thameslink or the fast Kings Cross from Cambridge.

And unless there's a last minute major change, the Cambridge slow goes from a 4 car train 1tph to an 8 car train 2tph, whilst the the semi-fast goes from a 4 or 8 car train 1tph to a 12 car train 2ph.

Plus at Cambridge it'll be interesting to see how the trains are displayed on the board. At the weekends many of the passengers only know they want to go to London. And the Thameslink services will have the London stations as intermediate calls

 

[Failed Unit]

As the fast trains don't apply to me and I'm unsure how the low level platforms will cope at St Pancras, I'll be more likely to go to Finsbury Park and pick up a service there - with the added choice to take a slow from Moorgate.

Bar the worst weather, it's usually nicer to be outside than in a basement with no phone coverage and intermittent Wi-Fi.

I wonder if others will do the same, making Finsbury Park more congested as a result?

Lots of interesting side effects which perhaps weren't fully considered may present themselves in the years ahead.

I did think about that and the chances of getting a seat / boarding at Finsbury Park are slim enough now.

St Pancras wouldn't cope if it was like for like with kings cross, but others will change to the core. Someone heading to Victoria may change at Blackfriars (or still use Finsbury Park). Just don't know how many people actually finish their journey at kings cross.

If the price for Farringdon is the same as Moorgate i almost certainly going to use it instead. But looking at the Bedford lines the unloading seems fairly even in the core.

 

[sjoh]

I have a suspicion that the Cambridge/Kings X fasts may end up having one extra stop put in - possibly Finsbury Park, but more likely somewhere like Hitchin or Stevenage (Potters Bar?), to allow for 'fast' passengers to change for 'south of river' services, rather than rely on passengers knowing to walk across St Pancras Rd. Only a suspicion, and with the current timings I'm not sure how it'd work - but i suspect they'll change.

 

[bramling]

I have a suspicion that the Cambridge/Kings X fasts may end up having one extra stop put in - possibly Finsbury Park, but more likely somewhere like Hitchin or Stevenage (Potters Bar?), to allow for 'fast' passengers to change for 'south of river' services, rather than rely on passengers knowing to walk across St Pancras Rd. Only a suspicion, and with the current timings I'm not sure how it'd work - but i suspect they'll change.

I've always suspected the non-stop services may have to go - if nothing else then to aid pathing on the Cambridge branch. Certainly one stopping at Letchworth and one stopping at Royston would bring some level of benefit. Alternatively a Hitchin call for connectivity would probably work well, although it could be a pain on the down to fit 8tph in the single down platform - especially if the service is up the wall.

 

[43074]

I've always suspected the non-stop services may have to go - if nothing else then to aid pathing on the Cambridge branch. Certainly one stopping at Letchworth and one stopping at Royston would bring some level of benefit. Alternatively a Hitchin call for connectivity would probably work well, although it could be a pain on the down to fit 8tph in the single down platform - especially if the service is up the wall.

An easier way of sorting the pathing on the Cambridge line would be to terminate one of the slow Cambridge services at Letchworth, but having said that the most problematic aspect of the proposed GN timetable for me is the poor connections in both directions at Hitchin for anyone travelling from Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North & Knebworth to stations between Arlesey and Peterborough, which I think would require swapping the semi-fast Cambridge and Peterborough paths, so you'd have Cambridge - Horsham and Peterborough - Brighton, not that what happens south of the river is too important anyway as most of the traffic is, and will continue to be, to London.

 

[bramling]

An easier way of sorting the pathing on the Cambridge line would be to terminate one of the slow Cambridge services at Letchworth, but having said that the most problematic aspect of the proposed GN timetable for me is the poor connections in both directions at Hitchin for anyone travelling from Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North & Knebworth to stations between Arlesey and Peterborough, which I think would require swapping the semi-fast Cambridge and Peterborough paths, so you'd have Cambridge - Horsham and Peterborough - Brighton, not that what happens south of the river is too important anyway as most of the traffic is, and will continue to be, to London.

Locally to me, there is very much a body of opinion which wishes for the proposed King's Cross - Royston peak service to run hourly in the off-peak too.

This would allow one of the Thameslink - Cambridge stopping services to be re-routed to Peterborough instead.

The benefits of this are that Peterborough gets 3tph instead of 2tph, and retains direct services to places like Welwyn and Hatfield.

The Royston service allows Baldock to keep 1tph fast service to London, whilst stopping one of the fast Thameslink - Cambridge services at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton maintains 2tph there but gives them a regular fast service to London for the first time ever.

This is certainly more useful than the current Thameslink proposals.

 

[Kite159]

Unless I'm specifically going to stations on the Kent branch of the service, I'll probably use a mix of the semi-fast Brighton Thameslink or the fast Kings Cross from Cambridge.

And unless there's a last minute major change, the Cambridge slow goes from a 4 car train 1tph to an 8 car train 2tph, whilst the the semi-fast goes from a 4 or 8 car train 1tph to a 12 car train 2ph.

Plus at Cambridge it'll be interesting to see how the trains are displayed on the board. At the weekends many of the passengers only know they want to go to London. And the Thameslink services will have the London stations as intermediate calls

Probably something like "Brighton via London St Pancras"