Glasgow - Why Hasn't a Rail/Subway Interchange Been Built at West St?

[clc]

It seems like an obvious and relatively cheap way to improve integration between rail and subway for Ayrshire/Inverclyde passengers yet it's only ever mentioned in the context of Crossrail. What factors do people think are stopping it happening as a stand alone project?

 

[Railsigns]

A new interchange station on the existing railway would be sited on the busy two-track bottleneck between Bridge Street Junction and Shields Junction, which would doubtless do wonders for the punctuality of services to Ayrshire and Inverclyde.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The interchange was Crossrail's 'solution' to the problem of getting people into the city centre when their train would skirt past. The distance between St Enoch and Central is short enough and the likely number of interchange passengers low enough that the scheme just isn't worthwhile. The benefit of a same-station interchange would be dwarfed by the disbenefit of stopping trains only a few minutes out of Central in an area where no one is going to want to get on or off.

 

[Carntyne]

Railsigns is spot on. It's too close to Glasgow Central to be any use without wrecking Ayrshire/Inverclyde.

 

[farci]

The interchange was Crossrail's 'solution' to the problem of getting people into the city centre when their train would skirt past. The distance between St Enoch and Central is short enough and the likely number of interchange passengers low enough that the scheme just isn't worthwhile. The benefit of a same-station interchange would be dwarfed by the disbenefit of stopping trains only a few minutes out of Central in an area where no one is going to want to get on or off.

Major housing and industrial development is planned for the surrounding area which has no transport options apart from the Subway. All the studies so far are based on a through service to from Ayrshire or the airport but it may be the City Union line alignment could have a role as a metro to connect the Southside with other neighbourhoods. Nobody has thought this out yet.

 

[najaB]

Nobody has thought this out yet.

While it is possible that you have a unique idea that hasn't occurred to anybody else, it's equally likely that it's been considered and discounted due to the issues raised above.

 

[kylemore]

It seems like an obvious and relatively cheap way to improve integration between rail and subway for Ayrshire/Inverclyde passengers yet it's only ever mentioned in the context of Crossrail. What factors do people think are stopping it happening as a stand alone project?

My guess is that it would develop into almost as important an interchange as Partick. Imagine the ease of commuting to the University from Paisley and destinations in Inverclyde and Ayrshire for instance.

And even if it added a minute onto all Inverclyde and Ayrshire journeys - so what - it would be worth it and stuff all the expert naysayers!

 

[BigCj34]

Would a West Street interchange be of any benefit to WCML passengers who would be walking across to Queen Street? So instead of getting off at Central and walking to Queen Street they can take the subway to Buchanan Street from West Street.

 

[Railsigns]

And even if it added a minute onto all Inverclyde and Ayrshire journeys - so what - it would be worth it and stuff all the expert naysayers!

Adding a minute to the journey time by stopping at West Street isn't the problem; it's the queue of trains behind that are all waiting to get through the bottleneck into and out of Central.

 

[Carntyne]

Would a West Street interchange be of any benefit to WCML passengers who would be walking across to Queen Street? So instead of getting off at Central and walking to Queen Street they can take the subway to Buchanan Street from West Street.

West Street isn't on the WCML, it's on the approach from the west.

It's not going to happen anyway.

 

[class303]

My guess is that it would develop into almost as important an interchange as Partick. Imagine the ease of commuting to the University from Paisley and destinations in Inverclyde and Ayrshire for instance.

And even if it added a minute onto all Inverclyde and Ayrshire journeys - so what - it would be worth it and stuff all the expert naysayers!

What % of passengers from Ayrshire/Inverclyde do you really think want to get the train to west street instead of central & vice versa. seriously, what %? 1% is my guess. So it absolutely wouldn't be worth it. That's not me being an "expert naysayer", that's just using a wee bit of common sense.

 

[Mag_seven]

The subway platforms at West St are probably too narrow to cope with even a small number of passengers interchanging. This is a complete non starter.

 

[HowardGWR]

The interchange was Crossrail's 'solution' to the problem of getting people into the city centre when their train would skirt past. The distance between St Enoch and Central is short enough and the likely number of interchange passengers low enough that the scheme just isn't worthwhile. The benefit of a same-station interchange would be dwarfed by the disbenefit of stopping trains only a few minutes out of Central in an area where no one is going to want to get on or off.

What, like nobody does at Vauxhall outside Waterloo?

 

[najaB]

What, like nobody does at Vauxhall outside Waterloo?

West Street is a lot closer to Glasgow Central than Vauxhall is to Waterloo, and there is a lot more going on in the vicinity of Vauxhall than there is at West Street.

 

[class303]

What, like nobody does at Vauxhall outside Waterloo?

Huge amount of people who get off at Vauxhall head straight for the Victoria line.

 

[farci]

West Street is a lot closer to Glasgow Central than Vauxhall is to Waterloo, and there is a lot more going on in the vicinity of Vauxhall than there is at West Street.

You don't seem aware of the plans to redevelop the area around West St. To the north and west there will be a new mixed development up to the Tradeston footbridge and to the south significant housing.

'Class 303' What % of passengers from Ayrshire/Inverclyde do you really think want to get the train to west street instead of central & vice versa. seriously, what %? 1% is my guess. So it absolutely wouldn't be worth it. That's not me being an "expert naysayer", that's just using a wee bit of common sense.

I would be interested in the source of your 1% figure as my 'common sense' suggests that not everybody in Ayrshire has a city-centre destination. University/West End for example?

The potential for a Partick-style hub is there but it needs to be considered in the context of Glasgow's city transport needs and not just intra-city train services as Transport Scotland does.

What we need is a regional transport authority to plan this. We could call it Strathclyde Passenger Transport! Oh...wait a minute

 

[glbotu]

So, a quick look on Google Maps suggests a decent chunk of disused railway land by the Ayrshire/Inverclyde lines immediately to the West of West Street. Could a station on loops not be built there? This would allow the faster trains to bypass the stoppers.

 

[Please Explain]

One word: MONEY. -Or lack of it...

 

[Altnabreac]

You don't seem aware of the plans to redevelop the area around West St. To the north and west there will be a new mixed development up to the Tradeston footbridge and to the south significant housing.


I would be interested in the source of your 1% figure as my 'common sense' suggests that not everybody in Ayrshire has a city-centre destination. University/West End for example?

The potential for a Partick-style hub is there but it needs to be considered in the context of Glasgow's city transport needs and not just intra-city train services as Transport Scotland does.

What we need is a regional transport authority to plan this. We could call it Strathclyde Passenger Transport! Oh...wait a minute

The problem is the time savings are going to be marginal at best. The main traffic generator is likely to be the University / West End type area. For commuters from Ayrshire arriving at Central the quickest way to get to Partick is and will remain changing at Central to the low level heavy rail service.

So we are only talking about the demand for further up towards the Kelvinhall / Hillhead type area benefiting.

Subway journey times for West Street to Hillhead are 11 mins and Kelvinhall 13 mins. But the thing to note is that the recommended route is to use the Inner Circle via St Enoch as it is slower via Govan.

So the most time that can be saved is the journey time disbenefit of walking from Central to St Enoch and even here you then need to deduct the slightly longer Subway journey time with the stop at Bridge Street. So savings per person are going to be very low with a very high capital cost.

You would need to find a lot of passengers to make it work financially. If it were creating a completely new link then it might work but this is marginal at best.

By contrast my favoured scheme for a cross city tunnel could potentially have a Subway Interchange at Govan. You're then looking at 3-4 mins journey time on the Outer Circle to the University district as well as faster journeys to Partick and NW Glasgow. Plus a journey time saving by being close to Paisley and opening up a district of 30,000 people to rail services instead of a fairly scrappy light industrial wasteland with a few houses planned.

Much higher capital costs of course but equally much higher benefits.

 

[clc]

By contrast my favoured scheme for a cross city tunnel could potentially have a Subway Interchange at Govan. You're then looking at 3-4 mins journey time on the Outer Circle to the University district as well as faster journeys to Partick and NW Glasgow. Plus a journey time saving by being close to Paisley and opening up a district of 30,000 people to rail services instead of a fairly scrappy light industrial wasteland with a few houses planned.

Much higher capital costs of course but equally much higher benefits.

But that's a £3-4 billion RER line versus £10 million for the interchange.

Mind you it does raise the question of what would happen to the interchange if a cross city tunnel was built as you'd then only have Hillington/Cardonald trains using it; unless Crossrail went ahead in some form which doesn't look likely at the moment.

 

[Howardh]

I'm disappointed there is no rail (light or heavy) direct to Braehead shopping/leisure centre. Suppose it's all down to cost and fast buses do the job (Airport/Braehead/Centre) but the journey can take more than half-an-hour in rush hours.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Bearing in mind that the comparatively straightforward new station at Kintore on the Aberdeen to Inverness line is now estimated at over £12million is it really likely that a proper interchange could be created at West Street for £10million?
To function properly it would need major track remodelling with loops (on an electrified line and where service disruption - Schedule 4 - implications would be huge) as well as a complete reconstruction of the Subway station with lifts and escalators. No doubt modern fire safety legislation would come into play too.
Probably well over £100m in direct cost, let alone the economic disbenefits of longer journey times for through passengers, possible breaking of stock diagrams, crew diagrams and so forth.

 

[Altnabreac]

But that's a £3-4 billion RER line versus £10 million for the interchange.

Mind you it does raise the question of what would happen to the interchange if a cross city tunnel was built as you'd then only have Hillington/Cardonald trains using it; unless Crossrail went ahead in some form which doesn't look likely at the moment.

Indeed. But I'd suggest a £3Bn scheme with a BCR of 2.5 is more likely to happen than a £100m scheme with a BCR of 0.1.

West St just about makes sense as part of a Crossrail scheme to provide an alternative access to the City Centre.

As a means of speeding up journeys to the West End it just doesn't seem to work for me.

 

[clc]

Well if those figures are correct then obviously I'd agree but would it really cost £100m for the interchange? Presumably the Glasgow Cross interchange would be of comparable cost. I can't see how Crossrail would have any semblance of a business case if these estimates are accurate yet the STAG appraisal gave it a BCR of 1.44.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Bromsgrove station was recently reconstructed for £24m alongside £100m for track re-modelling. No escalators or major excavation there.

Bank Underground station may not be strictly comparable (!) but the current re-jig is costing £460m just to 'move one platform'. Sadly these things don't come cheap and you have to go into ideas with eyes and pocket wide open.

 

[clc]

Bromsgrove station was recently reconstructed for £24m alongside £100m for track re-modelling. No escalators or major excavation there.

Bank Underground station may not be strictly comparable (!) but the current re-jig is costing £460m just to 'move one platform'. Sadly these things don't come cheap and you have to go into ideas with eyes and pocket wide open.

I've looked out the STPR appraisal for Crossrail from 2008. This gives a cost estimate of £100m-£250m to build all of the following:

Strathbungo Link
High St Curve
Turnbacks at Kelvinhaugh and Croy
Upgrading of City Union Line
West St Interchange
Glasgow Cross Interchange
Gorbals station

There's no mention of any track remodelling.

Heres a link to the detailed appraisal:

http://www.transport.gov.scot/sites...rts/uploaded_reports/j10194a/j10194a-a3E3.pdf

 

[Altnabreac]

I've looked out the STPR appraisal for Crossrail from 2008. This gives a cost estimate of £100m-£250m to build all of the following:

Strathbungo Link
High St Curve
Turnbacks at Kelvinhaugh and Croy
Upgrading of City Union Line
West St Interchange
Glasgow Cross Interchange
Gorbals station

There's no mention of any track remodelling.

Heres a link to the detailed appraisal:

http://www.transport.gov.scot/sites...rts/uploaded_reports/j10194a/j10194a-a3E3.pdf

I think firstly I'd suggest that it wasn't very fully scoped and secondly that construction inflation from 2008 to now would get your £250m up a fair bit.

However as specifically regards West St it would have been an easier build on the City Union line as it is an entirely separate alignment there with no passenger services so no 4 tracking, no schedule 4 payments, simpler signalling and no need to build it while keeping one of Scotland's busiest rail lines running through your building site.

Even then I reckon you'd be looking at £20-30m for Subway element of the works alone.

The Glasgow Cross station as well was proposed initially as High Level only with the Argyle line interchange being proposed very much as a potential second phase of the project so new platforms on the Argyle Line may not have been taken fully into account.

 

[92002]

Huge amount of people who get off at Vauxhall head straight for the Victoria line.

If and it's a very big if, there were numbers of passengers wanting to connect with the Subway it would be cheaper to build a moving walkway from Central to St Enoch Subway.

Doubtful the sums would add up though.

 

[clc]

I think firstly I'd suggest that it wasn't very fully scoped and secondly that construction inflation from 2008 to now would get your £250m up a fair bit.

However as specifically regards West St it would have been an easier build on the City Union line as it is an entirely separate alignment there with no passenger services so no 4 tracking, no schedule 4 payments, simpler signalling and no need to build it while keeping one of Scotland's busiest rail lines running through your building site.

Even then I reckon you'd be looking at £20-30m for Subway element of the works alone.

The Glasgow Cross station as well was proposed initially as High Level only with the Argyle line interchange being proposed very much as a potential second phase of the project so new platforms on the Argyle Line may not have been taken fully into account.

Fair enough, thanks for the info.

 

[92002]

I'm disappointed there is no rail (light or heavy) direct to Braehead shopping/leisure centre. Suppose it's all down to cost and fast buses do the job (Airport/Braehead/Centre) but the journey can take more than half-an-hour in rush hours.

Perhaps if the local Councils gave up their current Tram/train ideas of a Airport service using already overloaded heavy Rail to the City. Then a conventional tram line could be built from Paisley/Airport/Braehead/QEUH/Fastlink/Clyde Arc/City Centre.

Probably would be substantially cheaper too.