Ghost drivers - Fatal crash on A66

[najaB]

Ultimately if you get off on posting videos of dangerous driving etc there's a fair argument that you're beyond saving anyway. In my town there is a big problem with balaclava'd teenagers stealing motorbikes, riding them dangerously around town and filming the whole process for social media.

Possibly, yes. But (a) some will be redeemable; and (b) by preventing the creation of more, it makes room in the penal system to do something about the ones who are not.

But I don't ascribe to the "beyond saving" argument since 99% of the time if you ask people why they do these things, the answer you'll get will be some variant on "Because". Most of the time they engage in this kind of behaviour out of a sense of nihilism - they think that they don't matter and the social media "clout" is they only way that they can feel like they get any attention.

 

[AlterEgo]

These lads were, apparently, mostly from Traveller backgrounds. As were the ones in Ireland just last week. Now that does not make them automatically bad people but it does make them specifically difficult to change their behaviour. Unfortunately there is a culture of suspicion and baiting of the police. One of the deceased recently posted a video of them driving a car at speed across a public park and down a footpath on their estate. As @LowLevel says this sort of behaviour will shift the Overton window of public opinion towards extreme solutions.

 

[styles]

History says otherwise.

Edit: Not directly related but I happened to watch this earlier today. It's a good example of how authorities can abuse their powers to create "something to hide" out of nothing:

Not that I'm disagreeing with the main point being made, but I don't think the example in the video would stand up in the courts of England & Wales or Scotland as reasonable suspicion of being under the influence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 13:52 ==

I really think feral youngsters have no concept of death.

Teenagers in general have a heightened sense of invincibility.

 

[najaB]

Not that I'm disagreeing with the main point being made, but I don't think the example in the video would stand up in the courts of England & Wales or Scotland as reasonable suspicion of being under the influence.

Oh, it definitely wouldn't stand up over here. However it does demonstrate how "If you've nothing to hide..." can be abused by someone with corrupt intent.

 

[styles]

Oh, it definitely wouldn't stand up over here. However it does demonstrate how "If you've nothing to hide..." can be abused by someone with corrupt intent.

It reminds me of a COVID-related incident.

Judges overturn conviction for refusal to give name and address in case of suspected Covid regulations breach

www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk

In this case, a man was given a COVID fine for being outwith his locale during lockdown restrictions. He didn't provide his name and address. He was sat on a bench, away from anybody else, and was awaiting an MOT test result for a friend's car he'd taken to the garage. Bindmans (my personal favourite solicitors' firm if you're ever attending a protest!) took it for an appeal and got it overturned, essentially arguing that their client had a right to remain silent and that failing to give his name and address wasn't grounds for criminal proceedings.

The PCSO and the police officer absolutely were abusing their power and not using common sense that day.

The most ridiculous part about this? The lad was homeless. By definition of being homeless, there couldn't even be an area to constrain him to in relation to his address, because he didn't have one!

I know a small number of police officers and they're grand. But there are some absolute weapons out there just too eager to use their authority rather than to keep people safe.

 

[Statto]

There has always been joyriding going back decades, but this new trend is being fuelled by Social Media, were you have idiots driving vehicles even bikes dangerously whilst filming themselves, then uploading what they've done to sites like TikTok.

Twelve people, aged 19 to 61, arrested after Middlesbrough crash that killed two police officers

PCs Tom Clough and Matthew Blades died after a car, driving the wrong way on the A66, collided with theirs. Police say the investigation has "significant links to serious and organised criminal activity".

www.bbc.co.uk

A TikTok account believed to belong to Makai Saddington, one of the teenagers who died in Saturday's crash, includes a video of him and four other young people involved in what appears to be a police car chase.

It was published on TikTok on 25 March 2025 and has since been deleted, along with the account.

The video starts with the view out of the rear window of an Audi as a police car with its lights flashing chases it through a residential area.

BBC Verify geolocated the route and found that of the approximately 1km (0.6 miles) driven in the video, only the first 100m is on a road.

The rest of the video is driving on footpaths and parkland in Ormesby, Middlesbrough.

Towards the end of the video, which lasts 1 minute 34 seconds, the camera turns and a young person, who appears to be Saddington, smiles at the camera.

Facial comparison software matches other images of Saddington to the passenger in the rear of this Audi with very high confidence.

Another video posted by the same account, also since deleted, appears to show a joyride where a passenger is smoking, with the speedometer showing 100mph (160kph).

Then, later in the video, a different car is set on fire. The passengers in this video are not identifiable.

 

[najaB]

There has always been joyriding going back decades, but this new trend is being fuelled by Social Media, were you have idiots driving vehicles even bikes dangerously whilst filming themselves, then uploading what they've done to sites like TikTok.

It's easy to say "It's social media, innit" and leave it at that, but why do other people use social media networks for finding recipes, connecting over hobbies, or as a way to showcase their talents, while this lot use it to publish their anti-social or criminal activities? Same platform, completely different uses.

They are highly unlikely to be monetised, so it's not for financial gain. As I noted above, social media allows people gain validation and approval through likes and shares, but it only amplifies what was already there. If these (generally) younger people had been given other opportunities earlier in life most of them would taken a different path.

 

[D1511]

How about posting a final image on their social media thread showing their followers very graphically how the story ends......??

 

[styles]

How about posting a final image on their social media thread showing their followers very graphically how the story ends......??

Would be a breach of the Computer Misuse Act, whether it's a good idea or not, so it won't happen.

 

[D1511]

Would be a breach of the Computer Misuse Act, whether it's a good idea or not, so it won't happen.

Pity, because I suspect it would be effective

 

[Tetchytyke]

There has always been joyriding going back decades, but this new trend is being fuelled by Social Media, were you have idiots driving vehicles even bikes dangerously whilst filming themselves, then uploading what they've done to sites like TikTok.

I don't think it's being driven by social media. Joyriding is not new, the kids in Blackbird Leys in Oxford were doing this back in the 1980s and 1990s. Nick a high powered car (the Sierra RS Cosworth was always a good one), drive it dangerously, goad the police into a chase, crash it and torch the car. Nothing new. Back in the 80s and 90s they got the kudos from getting on to the 6 o'clock news, now it is TikTok. I'm happy to blame TikTok for lots of things but social media is just a mirror to society.

I don't ascribe to the "beyond saving" argument since 99% of the time if you ask people why they do these things, the answer you'll get will be some variant on "Because". Most of the time they engage in this kind of behaviour out of a sense of nihilism

If you have no stake in society then you won't play by society's rules.

Imagine you're a kid in some sink estate. If you work really hard and play by the rules then, if you're really lucky, you might get a job earning £15/hour as a welder or as a brickie. Or, if you go and join the local organised crime gang as some lowly minion, you'll earn ten times that.

I don't think anyone is beyond saving but I don't think we, as a society, are really interested in saving these people. Politicians of all colours only have one answer when anything like this happens: hit people with a bigger stick. But sticks don't work in effecting real behavioural change: even prison only frightens people who have something on the outside to lose.

These lads were, apparently, mostly from Traveller backgrounds. As were the ones in Ireland just last week. Now that does not make them automatically bad people but it does make them specifically difficult to change their behaviour. Unfortunately there is a culture of suspicion and baiting of the police.

Travellers and Gypsies have always been pushed to the margins of society. There was a protest a couple of months ago after an Irish pub in Manchester banned travellers, not to mention various hotel and holiday camp chains having blacklists of certain surnames. We therefore really can't be surprised when they don't play by society's rules.

I'm not sure how we get out of the nihilistic doom loop. People ostracise them and so they behave badly in response. More people see the problematic behaviour and ostracise them, so they behave even more badly in response. Then the police and other heavies come in and kick the crap out of them- Dale Farm and the Battle of the Beanfield, anyone?- and so the cycle escalates even further.

How about posting a final image on their social media thread showing their followers very graphically how the story ends......??

Same way that my mother has not stopped smoking despite them putting photos of lung cancer on her packets of Marlboro Red?

 

[styles]

Pity, because I suspect it would be effective

I suspect you're right.

Teenagers have always and will always have a heightened sense of invincibility mind. A friend of mine is a perfectly level-headed person outside of a car, he's a trustee of a massive national charity, he is young and working through the ranks with his employer very quickly. But when he gets behind the wheel he is usually a solid 20mph above the limit and I just don't get it. I don't take lifts with him because I don't like his driving, but outside of the car you really wouldn't pin him as a boy racer or anything and he's one of the most supportive and empathetic people you'll ever meet.

There's a real problem with road rage, in every country. There have been studies on it but they're all a bit inconclusive on the cause of it.

 

[D1511]

Same way that my mother has not stopped smoking despite them putting photos of lung cancer on her packets of Marlboro Red?

I will make no other comment on your mother than to suggest she is probably in the minority there, as the impact of those images was quite noticeable......

 

[ainsworth74]

There's a Go Fund Me running at the moment sponsored by the Cleveland Police Federation for the families of the two dead officers (funds to be shared equally) at the time of posting it's reached just over £500k in around twenty-four hours. If anyone would like to contribute:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/pc-matthew-blades-and-pc-thomas-clough

ut I don't ascribe to the "beyond saving" argument since 99% of the time if you ask people why they do these things, the answer you'll get will be some variant on "Because". Most of the time they engage in this kind of behaviour out of a sense of nihilism - they think that they don't matter and the social media "clout" is they only way that they can feel like they get any attention.

It's difficult. Middlesbrough and that part of Middlesbrough are notorious for criminality and have been for my whole life and indeed beforehand. It varies a little bit of course. Sometimes the hotspots are in one area, and then another will kick off. But in general crime has been an issue there for decades. I suppose at its root is probably deprivation and poverty which has been endemic since the 80s at the very least. It is now of course multi-generational poverty and, probably, multi-generational criminality in lots of cases.

But even when they are "good kids" they're at risk. One of things that Redcar & Cleveland Council have been working on with schools, colleges and professionals who have contact with children and young people is to try and find ways of stopping cycles of recruitment/grooming of adolescents (12, 13, 14 year olds) by their older peers (late teens, early 20s). But it's difficult. They're kids so their easily seduced by promises of money or just nice things, especially when you've grown up poor. Of course that eventually evolves into the kind of behaviour and actions that can get people serious hurt or killed. I think it's notable that one of them was 23 whilst two others were 16. You can certainly have older friends but I wonder what the actual relationship was there...

However, at the end of the day, two police officers are dead because a pack of young people got into a car and drove like maniacs and, it seems, not for the first time either. I don't know what you do to solve that. As someone noted above the public appetite is going to be for fire and fury. And I get that. I'm outraged by what happened on Saturday and what these sorts of thugs (and those that are older who just so happen to rarely ever get caught, that's what the young idiots are for) do to our area and to our quality of life.

This happened in Grangetown (next to where the crash was) in the middle of July:

Over the weekend police arrested five more men including:

• A 31-year-old, from Redcar, arrested on suspicion of possess a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence. He has been released on conditional bail
  
  
• A 26-year-old, from Hartlepool, arrested on suspicion of possess a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence and released on conditional bail
  
  
• A 17-year-old boy of the Darlington area was arrested on suspicion of possess a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence and released on conditional bail
  
  
• A 19-year-old man, from Redcar, was arrested on suspicion of possess a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence and released on conditional bail
  
  
• A man, aged 41, from Wayside Road in Middlesbrough was arrested and subsequently charged with possess a shotgun with intent to endanger life, possess a shotgun when prohibited for life, possession of a firearm without a certificate, possession with intent to supply class A and class B drugs

It follows a firearm being discharged at a property at Flint Close in Grangetown at approximately 10.50pm on Wednesday 22 July.

At 3.15pm on Thursday 23 July police received a report of a firearm being discharged at a property on Bevanlee Road in South Bank.

Fortunately, there were no injuries in either shooting.

Officers have also seized £10,000 in cash and drugs believed to be worth £10,000 as well as other evidential materials.

The other arrests include:

• A 40-year-old man who was arrested and subsequently charged with possession of a firearm without a certificate, and possession within intent to supply class A and class B drugs
  
  
• A 19-year-old man arrested and subsequently charged with possession of a firearm and possession of ammunition for a firearm
  
  
• A 23-year-old man, from Hartlepool, was arrested on suspicion of possession of a firearm with intent to cause fear violence and has been released on conditional bail
• A 40-year-old woman and a 42-year-old man were arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender and have been released on conditional bail
  
  
• A 32-year-old man who was arrested on suspicion of possess a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence and a 34-year-old woman was arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender. Both have been released on conditional bail

Ethan Burke, aged 24, is wanted in connection with the firearms discharges in Grangetown and South Bank. If you know of his whereabouts, have seen him or have any information please call Cleveland Police on 101 or visit the website quoting reference number 145138.

If reticent to come forward, information can be provided anonymously by calling Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111 or visiting their website.

https://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/cleveland/news/2026/july/police-arrest-11-in-connection-with-shootings-in-grangetown-and-south-bank/

Or this in October 2025 in the same area:

A car was driven into a residential house, with shots later fired at a separate vehicle and another set alight in the same area, during a night of "targeted and linked" attacks, police have said.

One person was injured in the course of an evening of violence centred on Richmond Court in Grangetown, in Redcar & Cleveland, with police initially alerted at approximately 18:00 BST on Thursday evening.

There have been no arrests so far, but Cleveland Police said officers would remain on the scene for the "foreseeable future".

Redcar & Cleveland Labour MP Anna Turley called the violence "absolutely horrific", adding the local community deserved to "feel safe in their streets".

"The scenes across Redcar & Cleveland overnight - multiple shootings, stabbings, cars rammed into homes and widespread damage to vehicles and properties - are absolutely horrific," she said.

"People in our communities deserve to feel safe in their streets, not wake up to fear and violence on their doorstep."

Turley has written to the Home Secretary to ask for additional support to be given to Cleveland Police to locate the "causes of the lawlessness".


Officers were first alerted to the violence shortly after 18:00 BST, when a black car, believed to be a Volvo SUV, was driven into a property.

Another vehicle on the same road was set alight and criminal damage was caused to a separate address.

A 43-year-old man was assaulted and taken to hospital with a serious injury to his arm.

The force said a gun was later discharged at a car on Richmond Court shortly before 22:25 BST. No one injured in the shooting.

In a statement on Thursday, the force said: "Whilst we understand local people will be extremely concerned at this evening's events, police believe these incidents are targeted and linked - therefore we do not believe there is any risk to the wider public at this time."

Turley said she had written to the Home Secretary to request more support for local officers.

"Our police are doing everything they can - but years of cuts have stripped back the frontline, and our officers and communities have been left to pick up the pieces," she said.

"Enough is enough. Redcar & Cleveland deserves better."

'Horrific' night of violence as Grangetown homes targeted

One man was injured in the Grangetown attacks which brought widespread damage to local homes and cars.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don't know what you do? Look at the ages of people involved. It's not just young lads doing stupid stuff for TikTok clout. It's endemic across the age ranges. How do you solve a problem like this? It's easy to just say lock 'em up and throw away the key and perhaps that's part of it. But I doubt it will change the fundamentals that drive this behaviour. There's absolutely a sense of nihilism and hopelessness that pervades parts of Middlesbrough which makes it easy to pull them in. And I'm not sure that their wrong to feel that way (not that their right to then behave as they do, to be abundantly clear).

Meanwhile two police officers are dead, their families and colleagues in mourning. It's horrible. And there's no easy answers.

 

[brad465]

How about posting a final image on their social media thread showing their followers very graphically how the story ends......??

Would be a breach of the Computer Misuse Act, whether it's a good idea or not, so it won't happen.

Pity, because I suspect it would be effective

I've often wondered if a similar sort of move towards Class A drugs, have graphic campaigns of the guerrilla warfare posted around the country that highlight what their drug use is paying for as a means to make them think twice. Again though that sort of advertising could be too graphic to feature on billboards and TV commercials. This does also link back into to this particular story, as it looks like this was part of an organised crime ring that will quite likely have been in some way involved in drugs.

 

[Egg Centric]

I've often wondered if a similar sort of move towards Class A drugs, have graphic campaigns of the guerrilla warfare posted around the country that highlight what their drug use is paying for as a means to make them think twice. Again though that sort of advertising could be too graphic to feature on billboards and TV commercials. This does also link back into to this particular story, as it looks like this was part of an organised crime ring that will quite likely have been in some way involved in drugs.

It'll make no difference, in much the same way it won't persuade the politicians to legalise what in almost all types of class A drug has a far better safety/harm profile than alcohol.

Unfortunately complicated problems have complicated solutions. Fixing the rift between traveller and gorger society is going to take generations in the best case, we're talking centuries of mutual mistrust.

 

[styles]

Obviously not the most concerning part of the story but people have been holding balloon releases in memory of the teenagers.

I really wish people wouldn't do balloon releases at all, but also can't help feeling that the families should grieve privately really given the circumstances. I can't imagine what the officers' families are going through seeing such public events for the people responsible for their deaths.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's absolutely a sense of nihilism and hopelessness that pervades parts of Middlesbrough which makes it easy to pull them in. And I'm not sure that their wrong to feel that way (not that their right to then behave as they do, to be abundantly clear).

Society is ultimately just a giant social contract- if you want the benefits of being in our club then you have to play by our rules. Which is fine until you get to the places where the people don’t really get any benefits from being in the club. Nihilism is an entirely understandable reaction to living in these parts of Middlesbrough.

I don’t know how we fix it either. But being “tough on crime” and hitting people with a bigger stick hasn’t ever worked before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 08:48 ==

Fixing the rift between traveller and gorger society is going to take generations in the best case, we're talking centuries of mutual mistrust.

And that’s precisely why the families are using the funerals as an opportunity to stick two fingers up at everyone. I have absolutely no idea how we get out of this nihilistic doom loop between travellers and gorgers. Maybe we never can.

 

[DarloRich]

However, at the end of the day, two police officers are dead because a pack of young people got into a car and drove like maniacs and, it seems, not for the first time either. I don't know what you do to solve that. As someone noted above the public appetite is going to be for fire and fury. And I get that. I'm outraged by what happened on Saturday and what these sorts of thugs (and those that are older who just so happen to rarely ever get caught, that's what the young idiots are for) do to our area and to our quality of life.

But we all know how to deal with this: Zero tolerance. I think Cleveland Police have been there before! We also need to worry less about cultural sensitivities and more about arresting criminals from littering upwards.

The bottom line is we need more police and more of them out on the streets more of the time. We also need more courts, prisons, staff, probation services and money but that is a different story

I know that is simple but it is a start. Be visible, nick people, kick in doors and make sure Look North are there to see it - show people that there is a better way and that crime doesn't go unpunished. Tough on crime. Tough on criminals

 

[Egg Centric]

But we all know how to deal with this: Zero tolerance. I think Cleveland Police have been there before!

They certainly have. Which is why Middlesbrough is now free of crime!

 

[DarloRich]

They certainly have. Which is why Middlesbrough is now free of crime!

well, the guy in charge at the time was a bit, erm, flexible with certain rules and procedures required of policemen ( allegedly!) but otherwise produced good results!

 

[najaB]

Tough on crime. Tough on criminals

Which works until the criminals decide to get tougher. Other countries have shown that this is an arms race that nobody wins.

It's equally (or more) important to ensure that people can see that they genuinely have options other than going down the road to criminality.

 

[Broucek]

Teenagers in general have a heightened sense of invincibility.

That's medically true. Boys in particular

 

[Yew]

But we all know how to deal with this: Zero tolerance. I think Cleveland Police have been there before! We also need to worry less about cultural sensitivities and more about arresting criminals from littering upwards.

The bottom line is we need more police and more of them out on the streets more of the time. We also need more courts, prisons, staff, probation services and money but that is a different story

I know that is simple but it is a start. Be visible, nick people, kick in doors and make sure Look North are there to see it - show people that there is a better way and that crime doesn't go unpunished. Tough on crime. Tough on criminals

We already have one of the largest per-capita prison populations in Europe, which doesn't support the idea that the "tough on crima" mantra is all that effective. Whilst this approach might appear satisfying, it seems unlikely to solve the problem in the long term, and exacerbates the shortage of prison spaces caused by the Tories in the short term.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tough on crime. Tough on criminals

Is there an example in history where hitting people with a bigger stick has eradicated crime?

 

[styles]

Is there an example in history where hitting people with a bigger stick has eradicated crime?

Many years since I looked into this but I'm pretty sure when I read all the research the general consensus was that likelihood of getting caught prevented crime, but length of sentence made little to no difference. To use a blunt example, somebody committing murder doesn't really care if it's 20 years or 30 years in prison - what matters is how likely they are to be caught murdering.

 

[najaB]

Many years since I looked into this but I'm pretty sure when I read all the research the general consensus was that likelihood of getting caught prevented crime, but length of sentence made little to no difference. To use a blunt example, somebody committing murder doesn't really care if it's 20 years or 30 years in prison - what matters is how likely they are to be caught murdering.

American "three strikes" laws are another example. If I'm facing life in prison for bouncing a $5 cheque, or for killing someone then I might as well make it "worth it".

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there an example in history where hitting people with a bigger stick has eradicated crime?

Not really, though the likelihood of getting caught is a big factor in bringing down crime. But if you can't keep hitting people with bigger sticks (and I accept this is not good policy) then I also see why some locals are pleased those lads died. That's five fewer criminals to worry about.

 

[najaB]

But if you can't keep hitting people with bigger sticks (and I accept this is not good policy) then I also see why some locals are pleased those lads died. That's five fewer criminals to worry about.

Except there's the martyr effect...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really, though the likelihood of getting caught is a big factor in bringing down crime. But if you can't keep hitting people with bigger sticks (and I accept this is not good policy) then I also see why some locals are pleased those lads died. That's five fewer criminals to worry about.

I don't think I would be pleased about it, but I also don't have much sympathy for the 5 who did something blindingly and obviously stupid and likely to get them killed by choice (driving or being in the car). The two police officers on the other hand...