Getting two on the buzzer against a red

[island]

A collision in 2000ish at Lewes was a direct result of a Conductor giving 2 on the bell against a red and the driver taking it thus spadding and having the collision.

A ding ding and away, as it were?

 

[Starmill]

I've seen on the 150s which have no through doors (and hence, the cab doors aren't converted to passenger doors, not that anyone uses them anyway) a sticker above the door control panel with wtte:

"STOP (big red circle) Check signal before proceeding"

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We all make mistakes, luckily I have never given 2 at a red, however I am sure one day in a hopefully long railway career the driver will notice and then I will be buying the coffees. The best thing about having 2 people is the fact it minimises the chances of a driver having a spad

 

[BestWestern]

A ding ding and away, as it were?

That's the one, or SAS SPAD if you want to use the proper lingo.

 

[Flamingo]

Haven't done it yet, hope I never do, but whenever I hear of any mistake, my thoughts are "There but for the grace of God go I..."

 

[furryfeet]

A head on outside Paisley in 1979 (involving several deaths) was the motivation for the amendment to the BR rule book , which previously was a "ready to start indication now that station duties are complete" - which baiscally put the onus directly onto the driver , as opposed to a shared responsibily with guard and or station staff.

I agree with this - from memory the rule book was altered after Paisley so that the guard / platform staff should wherever possible check to see that the starting signal was off before giving the "train ready to start" signal to the driver.
But it was the drivers job to observe and obey the signals.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I want to know why nobody told me about the coffee rule. I've had a couple over the years but never got a coffee out of it!

 

[Bald Rick]

The best thing about having 2 people is the fact it minimises the chances of a driver having a spad

Quite the opposite as many accident reports testify.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Quite the opposite as many accident reports testify.

And how many have said the opposite? Always a pro DOO comment somewhere.

 

[Trainfan344]

A collision in 2000ish at Lewes was a direct result of a Conductor giving 2 on the bell against a red and the driver taking it thus spadding and having the collision.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/478800.stm

Could this be what your after?

UK Politics

New crash heightens safety fears

One person was injured in the Lewes crash

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott has ordered an urgent inquiry into a collision between two trains in East Sussex.

One passenger was slightly injured in Monday night's accident near Lewes Station, which happened less than a fortnight after the Paddington rail disaster in which more than 30 people died.



The BBC's Christine Stewart: "Many feared the worst"
It comes as the former head of signalling at Railtrack, Sir Roy Bell, says a number of signals serving Paddington Station should be decommissioned because of poor visibility or reliability.

The Lewes crash saw the Connex Trains 1753 London Victoria to Hastings commuter train hit the empty Connex 1842 Seaford to Brighton train. No carriages were derailed.

A British Transport Police spokesman said early indications were that one of the trains went through a red light. The Paddington crash happened for the same reason.

The Hastings train had set off from Gatwick some 10 minutes late, said Connex spokesman Dave Ewert.

A Connex statement later said it appeared the Gatwick to Hastings train had left the platform while a signal was at danger.

A safety device used to warn drivers and found to be working correctly was not used.

Luggage handler David Sherwood, 42, of Eastbourne, was on board the Hastings train on his way home from Gatwick Airport.

He said: "There was an almighty thud and bang and I thought: `oh no'. It's frightening. After the last one at Paddington I thought, `are we going to get off or not?' "

Mr Prescott has called for a "urgent report" into the accident to be with him by Tuesday morning, according to the Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions.

The DETR said in a statement: "We are extremely concerned that another crash has occurred so soon after Paddington.

Commons statement

Mr Prescott is deliver a statement on the Paddington crash to the House of Commons on Tuesday afternoon. He may now include the Lewes crash in his statement.

The statement follows Transport Minister Lord Macdonald's announcement in the House of Lords last Monday that Railtrack would almost certainly be stripped of its role in safety regulation.

The Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes, Norman Baker, speaking from the scene of the crash, said: "The public will be very concerned at this latest breach of rail safety.

"The need to be extra vigilant after Paddington is clearly not being fully observed," he said.

Jimmy Knapp, secretary general of the Rail Maritime and Transport Workers' Union, said the trains involved at Lewes would not have had Automatic Train Protection systems installed.

"What is important is that in the aftermath of the catastrophe at Paddington we have got to make sure there is a change in the safety culture in the industry," he told BBC News 24.

Rail guards have voted for a one-day strike on 29 October over proposals to remove their safety role.

 

[IanXC]

I've seen on the 150s which have no through doors (and hence, the cab doors aren't converted to passenger doors, not that anyone uses them anyway) a sticker above the door control panel with wtte:

"STOP (big red circle) Check signal before proceeding"

These are present on the inside of the flap covering the door controls on 158s too.

 

[313103]

This is a very easy mistake to make, i have done it a few times and whilst not deflecting blame, there has always been another reason why ive done it. Most of the time in this industry where not only do minutes count but seconds do as well I have given two on the bell, also nowadays where companies want there Guards to be inside the train it is very easy to be distracted by passengers.

I have fortunatley only been reported once (six hours after i finished work!) and not at the time. Most of the time a simple apology often suffices, and as most of our Drivers were Guards before they themselves had done this.

This is a very frequant occurance throughout the country, I have often shut the train doors then as i am about to shut my local door i check and see the signal is still red so stay where i am and no harm done.

Some of our drivers now kick open the local door when in a platform with a red signal.

 

[sbt]

Some of our drivers now kick open the local door when in a platform with a red signal.

Is this what I think of as a candidate 'Quintinshill Flagstick' procedure? - That is, a safety procedure adopted unoffically by staff that is then incorperated in the rulebook.

IIRC after Quintinshill it was reported that many signalmen placed a flagstick or something similar in the catch of levers that were protecting stationary trains as a an unoffical safety measure. The upshot was that Lever Collars were either introduced or their use in this case mandated.

I know the DRA exists, is this cab door opening in addition or used on stock without it? In any case is it a candidate for inclusion in the rulebook or simply as an optional procedure introduced in training?

 

[notadriver]

The opening of the cab door is - I think - a PPS (personal protection strategy).

 

[pr6]

This is a very easy mistake to make, i have done it a few times and whilst not deflecting blame, there has always been another reason why ive done it. Most of the time in this industry where not only do minutes count but seconds do as well I have given two on the bell, also nowadays where companies want there Guards to be inside the train it is very easy to be distracted by passengers.

I have fortunatley only been reported once (six hours after i finished work!) and not at the time. Most of the time a simple apology often suffices, and as most of our Drivers were Guards before they themselves had done this.

This is a very frequant occurance throughout the country, I have often shut the train doors then as i am about to shut my local door i check and see the signal is still red so stay where i am and no harm done.

Some of our drivers now kick open the local door when in a platform with a red signal.

not being funny mate but i think re training is req, im a guard never done it, safety FIRST

 

[tony6499]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/478800.stm

Could this be what your after?

That's the one, 1999.

 

[DDB]

I'm just a member of the public but I'm deeply concerned about what I'm reading in this thread.

It sounds like staff are not putting safety first and covering up near misses rather than reporting them. If these things are not reported how can they be investigated for trends?

• Are they more common on certain platforms than others? Does this mean an extra OFF indicator is required or needs moving? Should a signal be given greater priority for fitting ATP
• Are they less common on certain TOCs than others? What are they doing differently that could be spread as best practice?
• Is happening at certain times of day? Or certain points in a shift? Do signals need better sunshades? Do rest patterns need changing?
• Is it happening to certain people more than others but always to a different driver so its not picked up? Do they need more training? Are they unwell? Need to be given a different job?
• Is it much more common than people think? Does a guard/dispatcher reminder device need inventing? A cover over the buzzer?

If they aren't reported none of this investigation can happen. I am disturbed that people are covering up these things despite the posting of coverage of accidents on this thread showing the potential consequences if the second line of defence (the driver) also fails.

DBB

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You might be reading too much into it, the thread might make it sound like an epidemic but we (in my experience at least) are talking about something which might happen once in a period of, say, ten years and countless thousands of successful dispatches.
If you had to calculate a percentage where it works as it should then you are looking at a number greater than 99.99%, but people dont tend to talk about when things run smoothly do they?

 

[O L Leigh]

Just to pick up on a few threads from this discussion.

Yes, one way for the driver to prevent the guard giving two against the red is to kick the door open. It's done at Derby with Cl170s when they make the reverse move to or from Nottingham in the event of a delay to prevent the guard getting too keen while the driver is still setting up the cab, but it's got nothing to do with the signal aspect. Both drivers and guards are professionals and, while the occasional slip-up will happen, we trust each other to do our jobs correctly. At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of both to check the signal aspect and to obey it.

What tends to happen on long platforms with intermediate and starter signals is that you won't get despatched from the intermediate signal unless the starter is also off. For example, you won't get the RA at New Street from a middle signal if the starter signal is still at red. The only exception I can think of is at Cambridge P1 & 4, but that is because of the scissors halfway down. If you're routed across onto the Through Line you can be given the RA on a single yellow, but not if you're going all the way down the far end on the Platform Line.

I've been puzzling over getting six on the buzzer at a station stop and trying to work out a scenario where this might happen. The only one I can come up with is where you come to the end of a TBW or SLW section and the handsignaller at the exit of the section is right up the far end of a long platform. I had this very scenario happen under DOO where I stopped, did my station duties and then drew forward along the platform to the handsignaller. However, how many guards would be sharp enough to spot it? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

O L Leigh

 

[VP185]

Getting 2 on the buzzer against a red is no big deal, happened to me plenty of times now. Certainly not worth kicking off at the guard over.
I just give 2 back for the purposes of the OTDR and then contact the guard by the cab to cab.

This is the reason why I believe the DRA should always be reset on clearing of the starting signal alone. Most people tell you it should be reset on cleaning of the starting signal AND upon being given the 'right away' by the guard or station dispatchers.

 

[Welshman]

Just to pick up on a few threads from this discussion.


I've been puzzling over getting six on the buzzer at a station stop and trying to work out a scenario where this might happen. The only one I can come up with is where you come to the end of a TBW or SLW section and the handsignaller at the exit of the section is right up the far end of a long platform. I had this very scenario happen under DOO where I stopped, did my station duties and then drew forward along the platform to the handsignaller. However, how many guards would be sharp enough to spot it? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

O L Leigh

I once heard the conductor give the driver 6 on the buzzer when starting from Fishguard Harbour station.
It's a long, single platform, and the 153 was right up at the buffer stops. There's a plunger-operated level crossing at the other end, protected by a red signal which is also the station starter.
I suppose the alternative would have been for the conductor to close the doors, then he or the driver walk right up the platform to operate the plunger to get a green starting-signal, and then return to the train and give/receive the normal 2 buzzes, but that would have taken a few minutes.

 

[TEW]

6 on the buzzer is used at Dawlish Warren as well, where the platforms are on a loop from the mainline, with stopping services often looped. The signals protecting the junctions at the end of the loop are just beyond the platforms, closer to the platform on the down than the up. If the service looping is running a little late the service being looped might be due off before the service has looped it. Pulling right up to the signal minimises the delay.

 

[BestWestern]

Worle, between Bristol and Weston Super Mare, is a location where Guards are routinely advised to give 'six' when starting away. If heading towards Weston, there is no platform starting signal but there is a signal a few hundred yards out, which protects the junction leading off the main line and onto the branch to Weston (the branch is to the right and so requires the train to cross the other line). The signal is often held at danger until the train is well out of the platform and on approach to the junction, in which case Guards are advised to give 'six' when dispatching rather than a simple 'two'. Simple SPAD mitigation, which in my view makes sense.

There are other locations where I would quite comfortably give 'six' if a platform signal was at danger beyond booked departure time and the Driver would be saved a long walk if he needed to get on the SPT! In most cases I would contact the Driver first though to ensure he was comfortable with me doing that, but I've never had one say no. Generally the signal will clear before the train gets there, at which point the Driver is able to power up and a few precious moments have been saved! Obviously this cannot be done in a permissive working situation.

 

[313103]

not being funny mate but i think re training is req, im a guard never done it, safety FIRST

It took 15 years to commit my first offence, however i will suggest that to my management team then and let them decide if i am competent or not.

I am so glad that your perfect in doing your job and never committed this heinous crime i hope that this continues throughout the rest of your career.

Strangely enough how many Guards have had to write lengthy reports or been distrated by your compaines control by constantly ringing you because you have been waiting ages at red signals?

 

[6Gman]

When I was let loose on the Class 323 simulator at Stafford I pulled up safely at one of the Walsall branch stations (poss Perry Barr). The instructors then tripped some relays just to set me a challenge. I went through the procedures, and reset.

They then gave me two bells. I pulled away, looked up, and suddenly saw the starter was 'ON'. Rapid brake application, and I (just) slid past the signal.

If only I'd seen this thread I'd have known they too were at fault!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm just a member of the public but I'm deeply concerned about what I'm reading in this thread.

As a Member of the Public, you are quite entitled to be concerned, though if the underlying cause for your concern is related to public safety or even to deaths, then I would hope that the focus of that concern is concentrated where those outcomes are most prevalent:
ca. 2,000 deaths on UK roads p.a.
ca. 100,000 injuries on roads p.a.
ca. 5,000 deaths in the home p.a.
ca. 2,500,000 injuries in the home p.a.
ca. 9 deaths on UK railways p.a. (4 on stations, 5 at level crossings) (excluding ca. 320 suicides.)

You really don't get to be much safer than on a train - safer even than doing work at home by some analysis.

But I will agree that there will always be room for concern. The skill, I suggest, is in remaining proportionate when evaluating risks.

[The figures above may not be from comensurate datasets, and if more precise figures were going to be of assistance, I or others on here would be pleased to research them further. These are simply intended to provide a basis for approximate comparisons]

I am disturbed that people are covering up these things . . . . .

So how 'transparent' is the road haualge industry, the regulated and private bus industry, the private van and taxi hires sectors, and the entirely unregulated and almost uncontrolled use of motor cars, motorbikes and light vans (where 'covering up is going to be employed in almost every possible incident that is investigated, and simply not requred in those that are not)?

 

[kieron]

Getting 2 on the buzzer against a red is no big deal, happened to me plenty of times now. Certainly not worth kicking off at the guard over.

Does your employer feel the same way? If not, have you ever attempted to change things? Having staff operate a set of safety procedures which are different to the official ones is a problem, however unreasonable the official ones are believed to be.

 

[blacknight]

not being funny mate but i think re training is req, im a guard never done it, safety FIRST

Just because you haven't done it yet in your career up to now, don't mean you never will, after all we are human & mistake will happen.
As for Safely First if that were the case why as need for guard to check starting signal been removed from rule book-only person in charge of platform is now required to check signal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it much more common than people think? Does a guard/dispatcher reminder device need inventing? A cover over the buzzer?

Putting a cover over buzzer may help prevent dispatching against a red it would get in way of giving emergency stop signal to drive .
What if cover breaks mid journey should train be terminated at next station? If allowed to continue in service & dipatch error happens could missing cover be used as mitigating circumstances. I remember when RAFG Phantom pilot tried to use that defence when he accidently shot a Jag down

 

[Safety365]

I know a driver who will open his door if sat at a red in a platform, the train won't get interlock with a door open so no chance of a SPAD. Doesn't work with Class 455s though!

I do that sometimes.
It does work on 455s, as the interlock is operational on his/her local doors when the DKS (door key switch) is not active in that cab. When running ECS under DOO conditions the driver should activate the DKS in that cab to be able to see that the blue interlock light illuminates. The driver can run around with both single leaf doors behind him/her open and still have interlock. It is not uncommon to see SN 455s with drivers local door open, especially in summer.

With a tight/late turnaround at terminal stations I tend to keep my local door open until I have set up the train and am ready to depart, preventing the guard getting interlock and giving me the bells. If you're ever my guard on a Shepperton, you may experience this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Off" indicators were on the Southern Railway pre-war in the electric areas , and indeed on the Underground from the same period.

A wartime economy was removing the bulb from the "on" section , as the important part was the display of "off" !

Down platform at Wimbledon Park on the district line still has one

 

[YorkshireBear]

Got to echo DaveNewcastles comments. My friends regularly try to tell me railways arn't safe. I then remind them that they happily drive everywhere. 8 people wake up everyday and go out in the car and do not come back.... So safety isn't really an issue here.