Getting two on the buzzer against a red

[notadriver]

A conductor guard I know says giving two on a red is fine as they are only telling the driver that the doors are closed and the train is ready to start. Is this technically true?

 

[Flamingo]

A conductor guard I know says giving two on a red is fine as they are only telling the driver that the doors are closed and the train is ready to start. Is this technically true?

Oh no, totally wrong! That is what is known as a SAS-SPAD (Start Against Signal - Signal Passed at Danger), and both the guard and (if involved) dispatcher are in for a world of trouble if it happens. Mediscreen, retraining, and lots of interviews without coffee are in their near future.

Two means that station working is complete, and driver can proceed. If the guard gives two, there is the large risk that the driver will pull off, if they have also failed to check the signal.

There is a case that if the guard gives six, the driver can draw forward to the signal, but if this leaves the train (or part) on the platform, that still leaves potential for somebody to try to board or leave, and all the resulting risks.

 

[wilsontown]

I believe it used to be the case that the guard could give the right away against a signal at danger, because only the driver had the responsibility for observing the signals. After a series of SAS-SPAD incidents, including the Belgrove collision, the rules were changed so that guards would not give the right away under these circumstances. This necessitated the provision of "Off" platform indicators in locations where it was difficult for the guard to observe the signal.

There was quite a debate at the time as to whether the change diluted the driver's responsibility to observe signals.

 

[notadriver]

Very interesting. Thanks to both of you for that.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I know a guard who was recently given 'tea, no biscuits' for just such an incident. It can easily happen and that is why I will not acknowledge any customer who is trying to talk to me while I'm opening/closing doors as this is when distraction is most likely to happen and before you know it you have given two on a red.

I'm interested in the comment about 'OFF' indicators and the Bellgrove incident as I thought that they predated that accident. For example St Margarets station near Richmond has one of the old style 'OFF' indicators that I thought went back to the 1970s. Not only is it small but in low winter sun it can appear illuminated when it isn't-and it protects a single lead junction with a signal that you can't see. The picture below shows St Margarets, the 'OFF' indicator is above the couple walking down the platform and in this instance is lit (although the signal can be seen from my vantage point).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8093255914/in/photostream

Giving bells on a red is something that every guard will do at some point, it's inevitable particularly if you work routes with lots of stops (over 100 per shift sometimes). That is something we got told during our training by a very experienced guard instructor.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe it used to be the case that the guard could give the right away against a signal at danger, because only the driver had the responsibility for observing the signals. After a series of SAS-SPAD incidents, including the Belgrove collision, the rules were changed so that guards would not give the right away under these circumstances. This necessitated the provision of "Off" platform indicators in locations where it was difficult for the guard to observe the signal.

There was quite a debate at the time as to whether the change diluted the driver's responsibility to observe signals.

A head on outside Paisley in 1979 (involving several deaths) was the motivation for the amendment to the BR rule book , which previously was a "ready to start indication now that station duties are complete" - which baiscally put the onus directly onto the driver , as opposed to a shared responsibily with guard and or station staff.

 

[matchmaker]

"Off" indicators have been around for a very long time. The change in the rules followed the head-on at Wallneuk Junction near Paisley Gilmour Street in 1979. Bellgrove was in 1989.

 

[wilsontown]

I think "Off" indicators do predate the Bellgrove (and Paisley) collisions, but there were places where new ones had to be provided as a result of the new guidance. And not everywhere that should have had them got them. For example, an indicator was added at Hyde North after a SAS-SPAD and collision in 1990.

As an aside, another feature of many of the SAS-SPAD type of collisions is that they often involved single-lead junction layouts, with the associated lack of flank protection. This was the case at Bellgrove, Hyde North and Newton.

Of course, with TPWS it's likely that any train involved in a SAS-SPAD will be stopped within the safe overrun distance.

 

[notadriver]

True but not all signals are fitted with TPWS.

 

[Wyvern]

Belt and braces.

 

[wilsontown]

True but not all signals are fitted with TPWS.

Indeed, but I should think all the signals at a platform end protecting a single lead junction probably are, unless someone knows different...

Also, I've clearly mixed up the history in my previous posts, so thanks to those who've clarified.

 

[185]

Done it once at Halifax when I was about three weeks on the job.

My driver stepped out and his face was the same colour as the signal.

Had to buy expensive coffees and very nice cream cakes at York.

 

[wilsontown]

Yeah, driver would probably not be amused...

I remember reading (probably in Stanley Hall's "Danger Signals" book) about the discussions around changing the rules. They asked some drivers what they would do if a guard gave them the right away against a signal at danger, one replied "I'd ask him what the f*** he thought he was doing". That was before the rules changed...

 

[Geargrinder]

If it does happen what should the driver do ? Is there a buzzer reply to tell the guard they are wrong, or does the driver have to go and speak to them to check why the 2 buzzes were given (and order their favourite cakes !).

 

[TDK]

There is a case that if the guard gives six, the driver can draw forward to the signal, but if this leaves the train (or part) on the platform, that still leaves potential for somebody to try to board or leave, and all the resulting risks.

The guard shall only give 6 on the buzzer if any of the train will still be occupying the platform if not and the signal is in advance of the station the guard can give 2 on the buzzer. If the stop signal is at the end of the platform and the guard gives 2 on the buzzer then if they are reported with the driver this will lead to most likely discipliniary action at the worst or at least the driver being taken off duty. It is drummed into guards on their rules that they should always check the signal before giving the driver the ready to start signal. If a SPAD occurs and the guard has given the ready to start signal the giuard will be in trouble as will the driver
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If it does happen what should the driver do ? Is there a buzzer reply to tell the guard they are wrong, or does the driver have to go and speak to them to check why the 2 buzzes were given (and order their favourite cakes !).

I have been given 2 on the buzzer on a few occasion at a red and I usually buzz the guard up on the cab to cab and say the signal is red, the guard then apologises and buys me a coffee at the next convenient location.

 

[BestWestern]

If it does happen what should the driver do ? Is there a buzzer reply to tell the guard they are wrong, or does the driver have to go and speak to them to check why the 2 buzzes were given (and order their favourite cakes !).

Technically speaking, the Driver should telephone his TOC's control centre and report the occurrence. As already mentioned above, the Guard would then be relieved of his train at the earliest opportunity (or 'taken off' as it's often called) and sent for Mediscreening (drugs and alcohol testing) and interview etc. He will likely be away from operational duties for a few days or weeks, unless it has been identified that there is an ongoing competency issue, in which case things can go much further.

In reality, most Drivers will either pretend they didn't hear the buzzer or give some sort of indication for the Guard to pick up the cab-to-cab and have a brief 'discussion' on the matter! Most crews try not to report one another, provided it's nothing more than a 'blonde moment'.

 

[185]

(but not if there is an intermediate signal midway on a major station's platform)

 

[TDK]

Indeed, but I should think all the signals at a platform end protecting a single lead junction probably are, unless someone knows different...

Also, I've clearly mixed up the history in my previous posts, so thanks to those who've clarified.

The majority of platforms do not have junctions in advance of the train.
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(but not if there is an intermediate signal midway on a major stations platform)

Indeed but then you are talking about a signal section ahead of you and the intermediate signal will clear to a yellow if the starter is red so there would be no reason to have six from the guard in this case as the signal is showing proceed

 

[BestWestern]

I'm interested in the comment about 'OFF' indicators and the Bellgrove incident as I thought that they predated that accident. For example St Margarets station near Richmond has one of the old style 'OFF' indicators that I thought went back to the 1970s. Not only is it small but in low winter sun it can appear illuminated when it isn't-and it protects a single lead junction with a signal that you can't see.

There is a huge variation in the quality of OFF indicators, and quite a few places where they are as good as useless. It never ceases to amaze me that, in the current safety first climate, some of these antiquated and clearly outdated ones aren't replaced with newer items, particularly when you see how unmissable the latest ones are! Salisbury and Westbury are two very busy major stations where the indicators are crap.

 

[tirphil]

If it does happen what should the driver do ? Is there a buzzer reply to tell the guard they are wrong, or does the driver have to go and speak to them to check why the 2 buzzes were given (and order their favourite cakes !).

I have received 2 against a signal on an occasion or two. I've just buzzed one back until I receive a proceed aspect then I give two but still stand til i get two back, if that makes any sense.

 

[Matt Taylor]

If it does happen what should the driver do ? Is there a buzzer reply to tell the guard they are wrong, or does the driver have to go and speak to them to check why the 2 buzzes were given (and order their favourite cakes !).

On my TOC it should be reported by the driver to control who will then provide a relief guard if required.

 

[BestWestern]

I have received 2 against a signal on an occasion or two. I've just buzzed one back until I receive a proceed aspect then I give two but still stand til i get two back, if that makes any sense.

That does indeed make sense. At the few locations I visit where it's fairly common to give 'six' and draw up, some Drivers will then also give you 'two' as they move toward the signal to let you know that it has now cleared and they're powering up fully (having already returned the 'six' of course).

 

[Matt Taylor]

I know a driver who will open his door if sat at a red in a platform, the train won't get interlock with a door open so no chance of a SPAD. Doesn't work with Class 455s though!

 

[wilsontown]

The majority of platforms do not have junctions in advance of the train.

I don't doubt that, but plenty do, and certainly the examples in the accidents mentioned did (Bellgrove, Hyde North, Paisley, Newton...there was one at Reading too, I think).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Off" indicators were on the Southern Railway pre-war in the electric areas , and indeed on the Underground from the same period.

A wartime economy was removing the bulb from the "on" section , as the important part was the display of "off" !

 

[MattRobinson]

I heard that it was originally the case that guards couldn't dispatch a train against a signal that was on and then it was relaxed and then reintroduced for the reasons above?

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[dk1]

Happens quite often but as said earlier most of us drivers would simply have a word with him/her. No big deal really unless they are unlucky enough to do it within earshot of a manager.

 

[hluraven]

Had it happen to me when I was driving, I can't honestly remember exactly what I did but I think I gave two back before realising and then buzzing for a chat! Definitely didn't move the train though.

 

[tony6499]

A collision in 2000ish at Lewes was a direct result of a Conductor giving 2 on the bell against a red and the driver taking it thus spadding and having the collision.

 

[dk1]

A collision in 2000ish at Lewes was a direct result of a Conductor giving 2 on the bell against a red and the driver taking it thus spadding and having the collision.

& the driver hadn't used the DRA.