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German Rail in decline ?

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AdamWW

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If I look at the number of flights from Düsseldorf to Berlin or Düsseldorf to Munich it had competion only not in rails Same for coaches and car traffic.

Fact is long distance trains are full and no further trains can be added to much of the system.

In principle they could presumably make more use of double decker trains for intercity travel.

This is one of the main things I find travelling around Germany. Trains are always well loaded. But there is still lots of internal flights.

Last year I was at Munich Airport when there was severe disruption due to snow. They made announcements to tell everyone with a domestic Lufthansa flight to get the train instead and claim the ticket costs back later.

I don't know how busy the trains were...
 
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Bletchleyite

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In principle they could presumably make more use of double decker trains for intercity travel.

Not necessarily particularly worthwhile. Unless you want to seriously cut comfort, which you could do single-deck, double-decks don't give you that much of a capacity uplift, when you take into account that you need to put kit above the floor that would normally go under it, when you consider they're not double deck above the bogies, and when you consider that you then need to add floor level luggage storage provision that would normally go overhead. A double deck IC* train is only going to realistically get you 1.2 to 1.4 times capacity. The TGV Duplex may get more, but it has a signficantly tighter seating arrangement than an ICE, and you could do that on the single-deck train.

* IC2 isn't really InterCity - in future the IC brand in Germany is more what IR was, with all the real long distance premium stuff carrying the ICE brand.
 

peteb

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I've just spent the past 3 months on inter-rail including a few weeks in Germany, some day trips on regional trains, other long distance trips both within Germany and EC type trains. I'd agree that generally punctuality leaves much to be desired, compared to Trenitalia and SNCF. However DB seems to offer a much more frequent service on many lines, even rural ones. The lack of east-west connectivity, or at least the slow nature of east-west travel is a concern. Not sure how they can improve things, they seem to rely heavily on the Berlin Munich HSL to join the gaps, with consequent heavy loadings and overcrowding common. However the ability to turn up and go, now lost in Spain, Portugal, Italy and France long distance services is still a major positive for me.
 

duesselmartin

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East West connectivity very much relies on the Berlin to Hannover line.
Many other IR services crossed at various points before but demand dropped and many services such as Köln to Dresden via Erfurt or Nuremberg to Dresden via Hof were dropped.
 

peteb

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East West connectivity very much relies on the Berlin to Hannover line.
Many other IR services crossed at various points before but demand dropped and many services such as Köln to Dresden via Erfurt or Nuremberg to Dresden via Hof were dropped.
Yes we had to do Gorlitz-Dresden-Halle-Munchen-Fussen, rather than via Chemnitz, cross country to Augsberg which would have taken about 10 hours!
 

Fragezeichnen

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Deutsche Bahn is a company that cares deeply about it's customers, and as such it has gone to great lengths to ensure that as few passengers as possible are forced to visit Chemnitz, most notably by refusing to electrify the line to Leipzig.

It's a bit like the way no East Midlands Rail long distance services stop at Luton even though it's of a similar size to Leicester and Derby - they're basically doing everyone a massive favour by ensuring there's no chance they might accidentally end up in Luton.
 

thaitransit

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You want an example of poor service try Vline in Victoria Australia.

Billions spent on new rollingstock and Billions Spent on track upgrades and even some double tracking projects. However despite this cash splash the reliability and cancellation rates are getting worse with every passing year! Chronic overcrowding and delays are the norm on Vline now.

But at least you only need to pay $5 to experience the horrendous service!
 

The exile

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Yes we had to do Gorlitz-Dresden-Halle-Munchen-Fussen, rather than via Chemnitz, cross country to Augsberg which would have taken about 10 hours!
Doubt the cross country route would have been much quicker than those 10 hours even when the IR/IC services did run! Combination of topography and 40 years of politics…
 

Jan

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I'd not say they really have, they run single train pairs on most of their routes, and will have an impact on DB no greater - probably lesser - than the effect something like Lumo or Hull has on LNER.
The biggest impact they've had is locally, because currently, track access in Germany is still based on dreams of a magic free-for-all-competition wonderland, resulting in an infrastructure operator being required by law to give priority to those train paths that net the highest income. This means that in the case of conflicting train paths, regional trains usually get the short straw and have to get out the way, thereby breaking clockface timetables and scheduled connections. (While there is a provision in the law that "Takt"-train paths get priority, so-called "network integrated" trains are treated in equal terms, and the criteria for that latter category aren't too difficult to fulfil even for open access operators running only one or two trains a day on a route.)

So basically everywhere Flixtrain decides to run, it leaves behind a small bloodbath of broken clockface timetables and connections, or some trains (or at least some stops) cancelled completely, with passengers on those trains having to travel one train earlier or later, whenever that may be. To be fair, even DB itself isn't perfectly innocent with scheduling their long distance trains in that regard, but basically every additional open access operator exacerbates these kinds of problems, so from that point of view we can be thankful that competition among long distance trains hasn't really taken off so far.

Some years ago the law was modified to allow an infrastructure operator to unconditionally give priority to clockface regional services, but it was an opt-in provision and DB Netz never decided to take it up, so it never made any difference in practice. The rules for dealing with sections of the network that are formally at capacity (i.e. where not all requests for train paths could be met) have also been changed in a similar vein, but likewise as far as I know those new provisions have never actually been applied in practice so far.

Finally, quite recently DB Netz itself proposed a concept ("mKoK") whereby a globally, network-wide optimised timetable is being developed based on known flows of traffic (with operators + the state authorities responsible for regional trains being able to give their input in that regard) and then subsequently train paths that are bid according to that sample timetable will get priority over train paths that deviate from that timetable. This would at least solve the problem of uncontrolled open access competition being currently able to randomly wreck clockface timetables and connections (though it still leaves the problem of through-ticketing – by law railways are actually required to work together in creating through fares, but in practice as far as long distance trains are concerned that section of the law is basically being ignored), but unfortunately shortly after the initial announcement DB Netz had to back-pedal and announce that that new concept would have to be delayed by a few years because it turned out that introducing such a thing from scratch was more complex than expected.

Interesting view on the far older and less efficient electrification system (15KV 16.66hz OLE)
Before the advent of three-phase drives + AC/AC converters and the resultant ability to keep the power factor near 1.0, the higher voltage (25 vs 15 kV) only mostly compensated for the higher inductive impedance caused by the higher frequency (16.7 vs. 50 Hz), so all in all it wasn't really more efficient. Plus the requirement to feed adjacent sections from differing phases in order not to overload the national grid with unbalanced loads results in frequent neutral sections and each section being fed only from a single point (meaning higher voltage drops when moving away from the feed point), thereby again driving down section length and negating the advantages of the higher voltage.

So if you're starting from scratch, 25 kV 50 Hz decentrally fed from individual substations is a bit easier and cheaper (and nowadays substations based on solid-state inverters instead of simple transformers would also allow both avoiding the problem of unbalanced loads on the national grid as well as getting rid of the requirement for neutral sections, though they're still a bit more expensive than transformers, so you have to weigh those advantages against those additional costs), but I came across some study on that subject which concluded that on the other hand in those 15 kV 16.7 Hz countries with an already existing separate railway power grid, keeping the existing railway power grid is more advantageous as compared to attempting to slowly getting rid of it.

and much more complicated layouts (with a fondness for double slips).
Dunno, looking at a number of major UK stations I wouldn't call those layouts non-complex, either. I also don't think Germany ever really had that diamond crossing madness which e.g. used to exist at York or Newcastle and still survives in a smaller form at e.g. Shrewsbury. And in Germany the smallest set of points still allows 25 mph/40 kph (Cologne with its 30 kph speed restriction on the eastern station throat is I think more or less the only exception), while in the UK points only allowing 15 mph or so aren't too uncommon.

After RENFE lost it's decade long monopoly on operating the Madrid - Barcelona line, prices dropped by 50% and ridership doubled in just a few months.

Open Access operators like FlixTrain and Nightjet serve viable markets the incumbent operators just don't care about, yet Trenitalia, DB and most egregiously SNCF have all been caught out playing dirty tricks to try and make life difficult for 3rd party operators.
That's all very nice when you a) have large point-to-point flows and can ignore connecting trains (in France of course all flows are dominated by Paris, in Spain likewise the population is somewhat more concentrated in the bigger cities and less spread out, plus RENFE already mostly doesn't seriously care about connecting trains what with its default minimum connecting time of one hour (!) and so open access competitors not offering connections don't really make things worse) and b) your network has plenty of spare capacity and ideally those open access operators can keep themselves to those shiny new high speed lines (the Spanish HGV network isn't exactly known for being overloaded for example).

On a more heavily used mixed traffic railway network the idea of free competition however rapidly breaks down. First of all this means that instead of directly competing for passengers, operators start competing for train paths instead, which means that incentives between the railways and passengers are already starting to get dis-aligned, and secondly its e.g. incompatible with having regular interval timetables and scheduled connections. When a regional service e.g. only runs hourly (or even if it runs half-hourly), it can basically only have good connections (not too short, but definitively not too long, either) with only one or at most two sets of long distance trains per direction, so who gets to decide which company gets to have that good connection, and which one doesn't? Ticketing incompatibilities then are the cherry on top of all that.

The TGV Duplex may get more, but it has a signficantly tighter seating arrangement than an ICE, and you could do that on the single-deck train.
… and it has noticeably worse dwell times – not so much of a problem with the French model of dominantly running point-to-point services to Paris and back again, but less tenable with the kinds services typical of Germany which often have major intermediate stops with a large fraction of passenger getting on and off.
 
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railfan99

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My Australian friend who's in Germany reports:

Meltdown yesterday (Thursday 27 July 2023) between Augsburg and Munchen with trains going from the west into Munchen between 90 and 290 late.

(He didn't advise me of the cause, and probably doesn't know why).
 

Beebman

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My Australian friend who's in Germany reports:

Meltdown yesterday (Thursday 27 July 2023) between Augsburg and Munchen with trains going from the west into Munchen between 90 and 290 late.

(He didn't advise me of the cause, and probably doesn't know why).
I found this on news.de:

Streckensperrung zwischen Ulm und Augsburg​

Für Verbindungen im Raum Baden-Württemberg, Bayern und Hessen hat die Deutsche Bahn eine aktuelle Mitteilung herausgegeben. Das Unternehmen teilt dazu mit:

"Aufgrund eines Notarzteinsatzes ist die Strecke zwischen Ulm und Augsburg derzeit gesperrt. Einzelne Züge im Fernverkehr der Deutschen Bahn müssen umgeleitet werden und verspäten sich dadurch um etwa 90 Minuten. Züge, die nicht umgeleitet werden können, warten die Dauer der Streckensperrung an geeigneten Bahnhöfen ab."
Basically it looks like someone required attention from the emergency medical services which closed the line. Some trains were diverted with a 90-minute delay but others had to wait at stations.
 

Jan

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"Notarzteinsatz" is often used as a euphemism for a suicide attempt.
 

gordonthemoron

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In the past fortnight I’ve done the following long distance trips in Germany:

ICE Hamburg-Berlin
ICE Berlin-Hamburg
IC Hamburg-Binz
ICE Binz-Berlin

All of the trains were on time, however the two Binz journeys were rerouted due to engineering work

Regio and s bahn’s had a few problems though
 
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Main issues having worked as a conductor on the Go Ahead Allgäu network (Munich-Buchloe-Memmingen-Lindau) since December 2021:

Single track line with passing loops at stations, too many trains and not enough slack in the timetable (Germany seems to prefer advertising how fast trains might get from a to b when in fact 10-15 mins reserve are missing in the timetable to allow for small things to go wrong)

Overcrowding on weekends due to the 49 euro ticket on the RE96 Munich - Lindau, passengers being left behind at times, and lots of discussions regarding bicycles (!)

Constant infrastructure issues: In the last two weeks alone had overhead electrics failure (Memmingen - Tannheim), and just today had to shunt around a station in service to avoid a set of broken points, signaling issues as a lot of it is still antiquated. Lots of TSR's that haven't been fixed in well over a year and timetables not adjusted to account.

A shortage of drivers means trains there have been situations where trains are canceled with no alternative. Sometimes passengers find out before the train crews do!
 

The exile

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Main issues having worked as a conductor on the Go Ahead Allgäu network (Munich-Buchloe-Memmingen-Lindau) since December 2021:

Single track line with passing loops at stations, too many trains and not enough slack in the timetable (Germany seems to prefer advertising how fast trains might get from a to b when in fact 10-15 mins reserve are missing in the timetable to allow for small things to go wrong)

Overcrowding on weekends due to the 49 euro ticket on the RE96 Munich - Lindau, passengers being left behind at times, and lots of discussions regarding bicycles (!)

Constant infrastructure issues: In the last two weeks alone had overhead electrics failure (Memmingen - Tannheim), and just today had to shunt around a station in service to avoid a set of broken points, signaling issues as a lot of it is still antiquated. Lots of TSR's that haven't been fixed in well over a year and timetables not adjusted to account.

A shortage of drivers means trains there have been situations where trains are canceled with no alternative. Sometimes passengers find out before the train crews do!
How familiar that all sounds.☹️
 
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Is there a source of information on the performance of specific Long Distance / Overnight trains?
For example next year I am planning to travel Hamburg - Zurich via NightJet with a connection at Zurich to Milan.
Need to figure out if I can make that connection or should build in a day in Zurich to my trip.
 

30907

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Is there a source of information on the performance of specific Long Distance / Overnight trains?
For example next year I am planning to travel Hamburg - Zurich via NightJet with a connection at Zurich to Milan.
Need to figure out if I can make that connection or should build in a day in Zurich to my trip.
I would always allow a couple of hours leeway if the connection is time-critical, but given that trains to Milan are frequent and only take 3hr, I would just be cautious about booking a matinee at the opera :)

Zugradar.de is one source, but limited info unless you pay.
 

rvdborgt

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I would always allow a couple of hours leeway if the connection is time-critical, but given that trains to Milan are frequent and only take 3hr, I would just be cautious about booking a matinee at the opera :)
If you're travelling on Interrail, then don't book any reservation from Zurich to Milan. Just use the hourly reservation-free fast regional trains from Lugano.
 

Richard Scott

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Just had a few days in Germany, timekeeping dire, many cancellations, lots of overcrowding, many IC/ICE trains running with no catering, lots of trains running with reduced formations. Makes the UK look amazing.
 

duesselmartin

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Never had it so bad as in the past 12 months.
I usually travel twice a month on IC/ICE.
Non of the journey went according to plan. That is 0 out of 100.
Best wishes from Germany.
Martin
 

nw1

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Main issues having worked as a conductor on the Go Ahead Allgäu network (Munich-Buchloe-Memmingen-Lindau) since December 2021:
Go Ahead? As in the British bus company?

Wouldn't surprise me, given private tendering (as discussed above).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

* The Hamburg-Berchtesgaden once a day train pair runs, or always used to, as a RE from Freilassing to Berchtesgaden, but using IC stock. If the UK had this you could imagine the same thing happening to a GWR Penzance service after Plymouth, for instance, or the Chieftain after Edinburgh.
I noticed that back in 2011 and 2014, it did indeed take one of the hourly paths from Freilassing. ISTR the diagramming involved something more complex than the southbound Hamburg working the northbound Hamburg, perhaps it worked back to Freilassing and stabled there overnight?

And that's one of the things that makes (or did make, in 2009-14 when I visited Germany regularly) German rail interesting - the maintenance of these esoteric once-a-day services that the UK used to specialise in during the 80s, yet also fitting into a clockface point-to-point pattern between major Hbfs (or branch lines, as in this case).
 
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duesselmartin

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yes, UK's Go Ahead and National Express are big regional rail operators in Germany.
The latter are doing a pretty good job in NorthRhine Westfalia I think.
 

YorkshireBear

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Just had a few days in Germany, timekeeping dire, many cancellations, lots of overcrowding, many IC/ICE trains running with no catering, lots of trains running with reduced formations. Makes the UK look amazing.
You wonder if the general summer crowding and high usage along with heat is contributing to the issues.
 

Richard Scott

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You wonder if the general summer crowding and high usage along with heat is contributing to the issues.
Wasn't even that hot to be honest; far worse than in previous years. Things were in pieces by 08.00 yesterday so can't really blame heat ans summer crowding then!
 

paul_munich

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There is a massive number of construction sides, two arteries are currently closed, Nürnberg-Würzburg and Cologne-Düsseldorf, also a damaged bridge in Frankfurt is affecting the whole county.
After the five-month closure of the Riedbahn between Frankfurt and Mannheim in 2024 we will see light at the end of the tunnel, with punctuality level rising, from the current 90%.
 

Richard Scott

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There is a massive number of construction sides, two arteries are currently closed, Nürnberg-Würzburg and Cologne-Düsseldorf, also a damaged bridge in Frankfurt is affecting the whole county.
After the five-month closure of the Riedbahn between Frankfurt and Mannheim in 2024 we will see light at the end of the tunnel, with punctuality level rising, from the current 90%.
Can't believe it's anywhere near 90% in my experience.
 
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