• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

German Rail in decline ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,414
Based on travels mostly between summer 2009 and summer 2014 inclusive (4 occasions, namely 2009/11/12/14):

The main thing that was apparent to me on German railways was more integration, it seemed a more coherent system than the fragmented British one, with planned Takt-style connections. Even the small private operators (such as in Bavaria) seemed integrated into the general system, probably because they were Land-tendered routes. Furthermore, in Germany and neighbouring countries, even moderate sized places had an S-Bahn network of the sort that wouldn't exist in similar sized cities here. Heidelberg-Mannheim was one example, Freiburg another (IIRC), and over the border in Austria, Innsbruck and Salzburg.

(We can but dream of a Solent S-Bahn!)

There are also more small branch lines of the sort which would have long closed in the UK (again often operated by smaller operators).

Delays were comparable to those of the UK, as were engineering works at inconvenient times (such as weekends in mid-July on the Garmisch route, thankfully not affecting me directly as it was while I was staying there). I never encountered cancellations but doubtless they existed.

Another general observation was the "clockface between nodes, but different origin/destination points" setup which I've commented on before. Each segment connecting 2 nodes (let's say Frankfurt and Munich, via Nuremberg or via Stuttgart) would have a clockface service, but each service on that segment might have a different origin or destination point. A bit like Operation Princess, perhaps. I can't comment either way as to whether this had effects on reliability, but it was a perhaps nice combination of both regular interval clockface services and once-or-twice-a-day links between more far flung points.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
Not just a railway issue, but in Western Germany there is a massive amount of infrastructure dating from the 1950s -1970s (postwar rebuilding and Wirtschaftswunder) that has all reached the point at which lots of money needs spending on it at once.
Much of it is the wrong way round. The old W Germany made its network connect its cities. But then there was reunification and Berlin became a new traffic hub.

Also the way the pre war german railways was set up meant the german rail system went deep into present day Poland and even into present day Russia. Much of present day Poland sits on E Prussia while pre WW2 poland is now in Russia and W Ukraine.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,319
Location
Somerset
Much of it is the wrong way round. The old W Germany made its network connect its cities. But then there was reunification and Berlin became a new traffic hub.

Also the way the pre war german railways was set up meant the german rail system went deep into present day Poland and even into present day Russia. Much of present day Poland sits on E Prussia while pre WW2 poland is now in Russia and W Ukraine.
Very true - though I was thinking of "infrastructure" on a much wider basis than the railways; a lot of it is going to reach "getting tired" or worse in a very concentrated period. The first (?) of the big concrete motorway viaducts reached the point of no return earlier in the year and several others have needed painfully expensive remedial work to keep them safe for use.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,458
Location
Isle of Man
DB is not privatised by UK standards. It operates in a situation very similar to LNER, Northern, TPE etc, albeit with the infrastructure vested in a subsidiary of the same company (but the need to treat it separately by EU rules, e.g. in the way Openreach operates as part of BT Group). The Germans sometimes refer to it as privatised, but that's more in the sense of it having been spun out of the civil service into a share capital company (Aktiengesellschaft, basically a limited company in UK terms) but with all shares owned by the state.

It’s closer to the concession model than you credit. And as the länder now have to tender out regional services, you’re seeing a) DB cutting corners to cut costs to be competitive at tender and b) seeing increasing fragmentation of the network.

The UK exported the concession model to the EU and it’s a disaster everywhere it is seen. It isn’t a new thing, though. Look at the absolute disaster zone that was the Berlin S-Bahn in 2009/10/11, caused by aggressive cost-cutting that took years to reverse and rectify.
 

duesselmartin

Established Member
Joined
18 Jan 2014
Messages
2,154
Location
Duisburg, Germany
I think a missed point here is capacity. When I moved to Düsseldorf 25 years ago we had two RE ( plus IC ect) between Düsseldorf and Duisburg every hours. Now it is between eight and ten . All that on the same infrastructure.
Many IC ICE lines also increased frequency. Tracks for overtaking have been reduced in a cost cutting drive. It was hoped to float DB on the stock exchange and it needed to make money ( which it never did).
We are paying the price for that now.
 
Last edited:

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,319
Location
Somerset
I think a missed point here is capacity. When I moved to Düsseldorf 25 years ago we had two RE ( plus IC ect) between Düsseldorf and Duisburg every hours. Now it is between eight and ten . All that on the same infrastructure.
Many IC ICE lines also increased frequency. Tracks for overtaking have been reduced in a cost cutting drive. It was hoped to float DB on the stock exchange and it needed to make Money ( which it never did).
We are paying the price for that now.
It’s not just the uk that doesn’t learn by others’ experience. This time we’re the example!
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
I'd say the German rail network has been unreliable since I started going in 2016, no doubt it is worse now. I think it's just as more mainstream papers pay more attention due to using them for climate reasons, it picks up more press.

Certainly seems the guardian have noticed. I also have had unreliable train journeys in France and Italy so it's certainly not German specific.

In November I am on a long trip through Germany where I get a sleeper from Stuttgart after travelling from London. I've got a 5 hour 45 minute wait in Stuttgart, I just hope it will be enough!!!
 

Segedunum

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
4,750
Location
Up North
I've been travelling to Germany regularly since 2018 and it definitely feels like everything is creaking at the seams. It never used to be that bad five years ago - though minor delays would still crop up.

Trying to use the 9€ ticket last year was made more difficult by the fact that reliability of regional services was absolutely appalling. Connections wouldn't necessarily wait, either, and every single day you'd have multiple delays.

They do get a lot right, but it's much like GB. Trying to shove too many trains onto aging infrastructure that can't cope.
 

geoffk

On Moderation
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,926
Location
Exeter
While all-operator tickets are valid on Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, does the same apply on open access operators in Germany? Flix Train has been mentioned above, or for that matter in Italy etc. Or is the ticketing separate from DB?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,082
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
While all-operator tickets are valid on Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, does the same apply on open access operators in Germany? Flix Train has been mentioned above, or for that matter in Italy etc. Or is the ticketing separate from DB?

For long distance services no, there's no ticket interavailability. For regional services which are tendered, these are in the general fare system.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
There has been actual privatisation on a regional level with tendering of routes and groups of routes more like the way UK nonremunerative bus routes operate, but I don't think this really has had much impact on the woes of the iC/ICE network.
THe introduction of the EU required tendering process, as well as artificial barriers between various railway operating units, imposes huge additional costs on the industry though.
 

geoffk

On Moderation
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,926
Location
Exeter
The introduction of the EU required tendering process, as well as artificial barriers between various railway operating units, imposes huge additional costs on the industry though.
This must have had the same effect in Britain while we were an EU member. We could have retained BR and tendered small local networks but the Govt of the day decided otherwise. Ireland still has a unified rail network and I'm not aware of plans to tender parts of it.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,902
Location
Mold, Clwyd
While all-operator tickets are valid on Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, does the same apply on open access operators in Germany? Flix Train has been mentioned above, or for that matter in Italy etc. Or is the ticketing separate from DB?
It's worse than that, regional tickets are not valid on long-distance services between the same points, even where they are both operated by DB.
The much-vaunted Deutschlandticket is not valid on long-distance services (ie ICE/IC/EC), nor the various Länder-based rover tickets.
Going way back, it preserves the policy of charging a supplement for faster trains.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
8,407
Location
UK
Personally I think Trenitalia is better than DB.
It may have it's shortcomings, the infrastructure isn't quite so good and there are older carriages still knocking around.

Most of my journey's have been on loco hauled double decker stock, refurbished single decker carriages and brand new Hitachi EMUs. Overall the punctuality is better and the trains are nicer.

DB operates some very faded and tatty Double decker trains hauled by ancient BR 112 locos around Hamburg, the station is frankly disgusting and the fares aren't exactly cheap either
 

Segedunum

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
4,750
Location
Up North
DB operates some very faded and tatty Double decker trains hauled by ancient BR 112 locos around Hamburg, the station is frankly disgusting and the fares aren't exactly cheap either
As @Bletchleyite has pointed out, Hamburg Hbf is bordering on feral. Sunday of two weeks back I used it, nearly got elbowed in the jaw by someone in Backwerk as he ran away without paying, and almost ended up in a stampede as the DB Sicherheit held people on the bridge while police dealt with an incident.

A couple of years ago I walked out of there to the sight of someone snorting white powder off the pavement...
 

Fragezeichnen

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
433
Location
Somewhere
While all-operator tickets are valid on Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo, does the same apply on open access operators in Germany? Flix Train has been mentioned above, or for that matter in Italy etc. Or is the ticketing separate from DB?

Technically, all long distance services are open access in Germany. Apart from DB there is only one operator of daytime long distance services, FlixTrain, and they operate about 5 train pairs per day whereas DB long distance must have hundreds.
There is no ticketing interoperability, although unlike in the situation in Italy with Trenitalia/Italo, DB does show FlixTrain services in it's journey planner.
I have the impression FlixTrain sees itself as a 'coach on rails', and unlike DB you cannot buy a combined ticket for a FlixTrain service and a connecting regional train.

The introduction of the EU required tendering process, as well as artificial barriers between various railway operating units, imposes huge additional costs on the industry though.

This must have had the same effect in Britain while we were an EU member. We could have retained BR and tendered small local networks but the Govt of the day decided otherwise. Ireland still has a unified rail network and I'm not aware of plans to tender parts of it.

Its certainly possible to do this and still comply with EU regulations. You take the Belgian approach - put out one tender to operate the entire network and provide all staff and rolling stock, thus preventing any real competition since no-one except the imcumbent monopoly can credibly bid.

Yes, the tendering and seperation increases overheads, but the problem is that invariably state owned monopolies tend to operate in their own interests and not in the interests of their customers.

After RENFE lost it's decade long monopoly on operating the Madrid - Barcelona line, prices dropped by 50% and ridership doubled in just a few months.

Open Access operators like FlixTrain and Nightjet serve viable markets the incumbent operators just don't care about, yet Trenitalia, DB and most egregiously SNCF have all been caught out playing dirty tricks to try and make life difficult for 3rd party operators.
 
Last edited:

geoffk

On Moderation
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,926
Location
Exeter
Technically, all long distance services are open access in Germany. Apart from DB there is only one operator of daytime long distance services, FlixTrain, and they operate about 5 train pairs per day whereas DB long distance must have hundreds.
There is no ticketing interoperability, although unlike in the situation in Italy with Trenitalia/Italo, DB does show FlixTrain services in it's journey planner.
I have the impression FlixTrain sees itself as a 'coach on rails', and unlike DB you cannot buy a combined ticket for a FlixTrain service and a connecting regional train.
The reverse of integration then. Years ago I remember using the Rotterdam to Milan train for a local journey in Austria. No idea whose stock it was but it didn't matter. Since then there has been a big expansion of multi-voltage electric locos which can cross national borders so technical interoperability has improved.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
5,902
The reverse of integration then. Years ago I remember using the Rotterdam to Milan train for a local journey in Austria. No idea whose stock it was but it didn't matter.

I believe it is still the case that in Austria (unlike Germany), local tickets can be used on long distance/intercity services. But presumably not on Westbahn.

I think historically Germany had supplements on intercity services and Austria didn't.
 

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,134
Dissatisfaction in Germany with DB is nothing new. The UK public is fed a constant diet of 'railways on the continent are so much better than ours' stories and much of the time it just isn't true.
DB has been deteriorating for the past couple of decades. The trains are more comfortable than in the UK and the staff are generally great, but punctuality and reliability particularly of IC/ICE services are appalling.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,082
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I believe it is still the case that in Austria (unlike Germany), local tickets can be used on long distance/intercity services. But presumably not on Westbahn.

I think historically Germany had supplements on intercity services and Austria didn't.

An advantage of this arrangement is that you avoid clogging up long distance trains with local passengers. We'd not have the XC crowding issue around Birmingham, for instance, if we did it. Where there isn't an alternative local service for local passengers (!), typically the IC/ICE gets an RE/RB number either instead* or as well and such acceptance is in place.

* The Hamburg-Berchtesgaden once a day train pair runs, or always used to, as a RE from Freilassing to Berchtesgaden, but using IC stock. If the UK had this you could imagine the same thing happening to a GWR Penzance service after Plymouth, for instance, or the Chieftain after Edinburgh.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
5,902
An advantage of this arrangement is that you avoid clogging up long distance trains with local passengers. We'd not have the XC crowding issue around Birmingham, for instance, if we did it. Where there isn't an alternative local service for local passengers (!), typically the IC/ICE gets an RE/RB number either instead* or as well and such acceptance is in place.
Indeed. I prefer the UK system but I can see the advantages of the German way.

* The Hamburg-Berchtesgaden once a day train pair runs, or always used to, as a RE from Freilassing to Berchtesgaden, but using IC stock. If the UK had this you could imagine the same thing happening to a GWR Penzance service after Plymouth, for instance, or the Chieftain after Edinburgh.

I think there are (or historically were anyway) places where National Express coaches become regular (stage carriage) service busses, taking free passes etc., which is a similar principle.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,902
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Unlike France, Spain and Italy, and Austria's Westbahn, Germany does not have serious domestic competition.
Flixtrain isn't really a competitor with its old stock and limited route network.
SNCF runs cross-border into Germany via Strasbourg and via Aachen with Thalys/Eurostar, but there is nothing like TI's Paris-Lyon services, Italo's Milan-Rome or SNCF's Madrid-Barcelona.
That may be because capacity around classic terminals is oversubscribed, and the way the HS network is fragmented with long classic sections in between.

DB seems also to be hanging on to Arriva, despite posting it for sale for 5 years or more.
It has got rid of Schenker outside Germany I think, but the trend is to give up foreign adventures, as the politicians and public want DB to concentrate on Germany.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,741
Unlike France, Spain and Italy, and Austria's Westbahn, Germany does not have serious domestic competition.
What is the “serious domestic competition” in France?
Flixtrain isn't really a competitor with its old stock and limited route network.
Although Flix has spent a lot (financed by Railpool) on upgrading its stock. It may be old but the interiors are modern.
 

duesselmartin

Established Member
Joined
18 Jan 2014
Messages
2,154
Location
Duisburg, Germany
If I look at the number of flights from Düsseldorf to Berlin or Düsseldorf to Munich it had competion only not in rails Same for coaches and car traffic.

Fact is long distance trains are full and no further trains can be added to much of the system.
Certainly passenger numbers are not in decline.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,741
Trenitalia's Paris-Lyon services, operated by FR1000 units.
This is additional to the Paris-Milan services run separately from SNCF's TGVs.
That's the sum total of 5 trains each way (including the through services to Milan) from what I can see. Hardly "serious domestic competition" - it's fewer services than Hull Trains operate!
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,902
Location
Mold, Clwyd
That's the sum total of 5 trains each way (including the through services to Milan) from what I can see. Hardly "serious domestic competition" - it's fewer services than Hull Trains operate!
Plus Renfe's Marseille/Lyon/Toulouse-Barcelona services, independent of SNCF (about to start).
I don't know what French domestic rights they have.
The point is, the mould is now broken (not surprising with SNCF involved in domestic services in Italy and Spain).
 

Goldfish62

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
13,134
DB seems also to be hanging on to Arriva, despite posting it for sale for 5 years or more.
It has got rid of Schenker outside Germany I think, but the trend is to give up foreign adventures, as the politicians and public want DB to concentrate on Germany.
Arriva is up for sale. That was announced publicly earlier this year.

DB couldn't previously sell it because they insisted on selling it whole and then gave up. It is now for sale on the basis of being broken up. It's very likely you will see parts of the UK bus business being sold on very soon.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,082
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
DB couldn't previously sell it because they insisted on selling it whole and then gave up. It is now for sale on the basis of being broken up. It's very likely you will see parts of the UK bus business being sold on very soon.

I'll be honest, I can't wait, our local Arriva bus service is dire. Unless they flog it to the Aylesbury lot it can hardly be any worse; with Stagecoach already big in the area First might be more likely.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
If I look at the number of flights from Düsseldorf to Berlin or Düsseldorf to Munich it had competion only not in rails Same for coaches and car traffic.

Fact is long distance trains are full and no further trains can be added to much of the system.
Certainly passenger numbers are not in decline.
This is one of the main things I find travelling around Germany. Trains are always well loaded. But there is still lots of internal flights.

All just shows their general internal transport network is cracking at the seams (or has already burst open).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top