GEML franchise 2016

[grumblingalong]

There must be other diagramming options. How full is the 23:05?

Busiest night of the week is a Saturday as you might guess when a 3 car 170 does the honours as no need for a hauled set in Ipswich for the Sunday morning. The set for the 0640 IPS-NRW gets bought down from crown point so the same could theoretically be done for the 0514.

 

[dk1]

There must be other diagramming options. How full is the 23:05?

Its not a case of loadings. It's due to the fact there is no where left to berth the set & the reason it's sent to Ipswich. You would also then need something at Ipswich to form the 05:14 to Liverpool St.

 

[Class 170101]

3 toilets in a 3 x 360 formation and no connections between units if one of those is out of action. I think 5 will suffice.

I'veseen situations of one or no toilets working in a 12 car 360.

I'd like to hope this mantra will be taken on given the issues that "old" AGA had inherited from the penny scrimping actions of NXEA. Things like the money saving removal of the Crown Point wheel lathe by NX... :roll:

The Wheel Lathe has returned I think you find after what happened last winter.

P#ss poor planning. It's not like it wasn't known that this was going to be an issue when first proposed to put in CET & reduce the onboard toilet provision. To cancel the 17:00 East Anglian on a Friday has not gone down well.

Not sure what the answer is apart from tripping the set overnight to Crown Point for de-tanking, but the depot is stretched enough at times as it is.

And for the 05:14 ex Ipswich would mean starting from Crown Point around 04:00 breaching NR's maintenance period between the Swingbridge and Haughley Jn. NR won't give that up!
As for the 17:00 that should be the first to fall given it only calls at Ipswich and Norwich. There is a 17:02 behind that to Norwich. Its not unheard of for the 17:02 to be cancelled and stock used for a modified 17:00 service with extra stops.

 

[TheEdge]

The Wheel Lathe has returned I think you find after what happened last winter.

I'm based at Crown Point, I know whats there now!

As for the 17:00 that should be the first to fall given it only calls at Ipswich and Norwich. There is a 17:02 behind that to Norwich. Its not unheard of for the 17:02 to be cancelled and stock used for a modified 17:00 service with extra stops.

On the flipside the 1700 isn't an "additional" service, its part of a diagram that spends all day going up and down the GEML, the 1700 becomes the 1900/2130 once it gets to Norwich so it can't be just cut out. The 1702 on the other hand is an additional service. And if it is cancelled by the departure time of the 1718 Ipswich service every stop made by the 1702 is covered south of Ipswich. And if you need Stowmarket or Diss by the time you get to Ipswich the 1730 off Liverpool Street is less than 10m behind. Also the 1700 makes local connections at Ipswich for Lowestoft and Cambridge and at Norwich for Sheringham and Lowestoft. Meanwhile the 1702 makes none.

So you can see why the 1700 is a useful train to run while the 1702 isn't a disaster to loose.

 

[LAX54]

Could AGA not use the stock for 1Y99 (0600 Ips - Liv St), then run a Hauled set up from Norwich following 1P01 and drop straight into P2 ? This could run up in the path of the now long gone 0F03.

 

[dk1]

I'm based at Crown Point, I know whats there now!



On the flipside the 1700 isn't an "additional" service, its part of a diagram that spends all day going up and down the GEML, the 1700 becomes the 1900/2130 once it gets to Norwich so it can't be just cut out. The 1702 on the other hand is an additional service. And if it is cancelled by the departure time of the 1718 Ipswich service every stop made by the 1702 is covered south of Ipswich. And if you need Stowmarket or Diss by the time you get to Ipswich the 1730 off Liverpool Street is less than 10m behind. Also the 1700 makes local connections at Ipswich for Lowestoft and Cambridge and at Norwich for Sheringham and Lowestoft. Meanwhile the 1702 makes none.

So you can see why the 1700 is a useful train to run while the 1702 isn't a disaster to loose.

Obviously the 17:00 down is a very well loaded service but what surprises me is how busy the 17:02 still is af Marks-Tey. I know if the Anglian is cancelled the East Suffolk is rarely held for the 17:02 causing much anger on ****ter.

 

[DasLunatic]

It must have something to the omission of the Colchester (and to a lesser extent Manningtree). Because Colchester is a relatively large station (circa 4.5 millon entries/exits 2014/15), instead of using the InterCity as would normally happen, Colchester passengers are forced to use the 17:02 instead to get to their destination. To remedy this, could the Diss stop be substituted for a call at Colchester and passengers for Diss told to get the 17:02?

 

[TheEdge]

It must have something to the omission of the Colchester (and to a lesser extent Manningtree). Because Colchester is a relatively large station (circa 4.5 millon entries/exits 2014/15), instead of using the InterCity as would normally happen, Colchester passengers are forced to use the 17:02 instead to get to their destination. To remedy this, could the Diss stop be substituted for a call at Colchester and passengers for Diss told to get the 17:02?

Okay, so lets take Diss out of the 1700. Its already in the 1702, next train is the 1730 then 1750. Now lets look at the trains in the same window that call at Colchester;

1702, 1708, 1718, 1732, 1738, 1740, 1750, 1752, 1758.

I must say I find it hard to accept the people of Colchester are particularly hard done by for trains between 1700-1800 and that adding it to the already well loaded 1700 will be of much use.

 

[dk1]

Compared to INTERCITY & Anglia days Colchester passengers are spoiled rotten now. I remember NO Mainline Norwich service calling between the 16:30 & the 19:30 from Liverpool St.

 

[LAX54]

Okay, so lets take Diss out of the 1700. Its already in the 1702, next train is the 1730 then 1750. Now lets look at the trains in the same window that call at Colchester;

1702, 1708, 1718, 1732, 1738, 1740, 1750, 1752, 1758.

I must say I find it hard to accept the people of Colchester are particularly hard done by for trains between 1700-1800 and that adding it to the already well loaded 1700 will be of much use.

Imagibe trying to get out of the Car Park with another train stopping at Colchester between 1730 and 1800 !

 

[HH]

Its not a case of loadings. It's due to the fact there is no where left to berth the set & the reason it's sent to Ipswich. You would also then need something at Ipswich to form the 05:14 to Liverpool St.

I realise that; I was just checking that there were no other reasons.

When did the lack of berthing space arise, and why?

 

[dk1]

I realise that; I was just checking that there were no other reasons.

When did the lack of berthing space arise, and why?

It's been ongoing for many years now. Anglia once even looked at leaving a set across the Berney Arms route overnight. It got worse when more sets where made up to load 10 as not all roads at Crown Point could accomodate. Network Rail also not happy with sets stabling on the Wensum Curve. Wiring 2 roads on the Royal Dock/Low Level helped a bit. There are only 3 platforms available for IC sets at Norwich Stn as platform 3 accommodates 3x158 overnight weekdays with the 05:33 Cambridge on top. On top of this sets not only shuffle around between the two for cleaning/maintenance/stabling but now have to arrange CET to be done too. Harwich was used more in the past but there is now no IC work down the branch.

Oh & as a footnote, it's amazing trains have been in place on time in the last few weeks as the washer at Crown Point is out of action for electric traction (hence the grubby appearance of some sets) with many trains having to go in/out main line which then requires two drivers for every move.

 

[Haydn1971]

The seating diagrams and long sections for the FLIRTs appear in this months Modern Railways, it's interesting to note that floors are up and down, ramps over the bogies, steps at the ends.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[J-2739]

The seating diagrams and long sections for the FLIRTs appear in this months Modern Railways, it's interesting to note that floors are up and down, ramps over the bogies, steps at the ends.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Any pictures floating around on the Internet?

 

[Haydn1971]

At risk of copyright infringement...

 

[47802]

I guess it's european low floor design adapted to be slightly less low floor then

Is there any info on the config of Aventra units. I'm guessing they will be like the thameslink units with narrow 2+2 and wide corridor connection

 

[J-2739]

Thanks for that! You didn't have to put yourself at risk though

So they go with a power pack car then. Wonder how that would go with wheelchair users...

 

[F Great Eastern]

Extremely poor form that we're now bringing trains into this country with steps into passenger service, especially when I assume the local routes which have a large number of elderly passengers will be the same as well as on airport routes where stairs are not very welcome to say the last.

Looking at those floor plans the need for a bigger lobby to allow for steps has reduced the amount of capacity per carriage and obviously it will restrict standing room to a small degree as well versus a fully flat floor. This is truly disappointing and day by day the rolling stock order quality is unraveling with it being clear that corners have been cut to save cash left right and center with half baked half measures in these FLIRT trains.

Presumably getting a fully UK spec unit would cost far too much so Abellio decided to go with a design that is off the shelf and shoehorn it aggressively in a manipulated way to fit the UK, regardless of whether it suited their passengers better or not. Don't worry though, they replaced every single train, EVERY SINGLE TRAIN, didn't you read the newspapers FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT, at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

We are going to be stuck with these trains for 30-40 years, considering what I heard from sources familiar with other rolling stock possibilities it's a crying shame that we did not get something which would have truly ticked all the boxes with no half measures in a rolling stock specification and bid which delivered quality rolling stock rather than a desire to be headline grabbing by focusing on quantity only.

I've always been the kind of person to believe that if you want a job doing well, best for it to take longer and to have quality and staying power and be up to the requirements of it with no corners cut without seeking grand headlines. Abellio appear to be in the mood of simply doing something as quickly and as cheapily as possible to look as good as possible in as much style as possible. I always preferred substance over style, still do.

By the way, one poster earlier in this thread said that off the shelf Electrostars would be cheaper and I said they are not, maybe now you are seeing what is cheaper that is also off the shelf?

 

[swt_passenger]

The seating diagrams and long sections for the FLIRTs appear in this months Modern Railways, it's interesting to note that floors are up and down, ramps over the bogies, steps at the ends.

Also interesting that the cars only have an articulated bogie at one end; so 18 bogies on the 12 car train. This must explain that slightly confusing line in Roger Ford's original story, when he explained - correctly it turns out - that the trains would reformed of 6 x 2 car "articulated units", and IIRC some of us thought that must have been a typo for 2 x 6 car.

Of course the 12 car drawn in MR is gangwayed throughout, so is effectively a 12 car fixed formation train, (irrespective of how it might be separable in the depot).

 

[Domh245]

Are we sure about the layout of these steps and ramps? Admittedly I can't really see much from those diagrams, but it may have an interior similar to the SNCF regiolis, where there is a ramp in the middle and then seats on raised platforms either side, over the bogies and at the cab ends

 

[Wivenswold]

E
By the way, one poster earlier in this thread said that off the shelf Electrostars would be cheaper and I said they are not, maybe now you are seeing what is cheaper that is also off the shelf?

My original point was that Abellio could have gone for the older Electrostar design but are ordering Aventras, I'll be very surprised if the leasing costs for the new design are cheaper that the outgoing model but that hypothesis (and it was just that) was jumped upon in a rather surly fashion and without any supporting evidence.

 

[47802]

Extremely poor form that we're now bringing trains into this country with steps into passenger service, especially when I assume the local routes which have a large number of elderly passengers will be the same as well as on airport routes where stairs are not very welcome to say the last.

Looking at those floor plans the need for a bigger lobby to allow for steps has reduced the amount of capacity per carriage and obviously it will restrict standing room to a small degree as well versus a fully flat floor. This is truly disappointing and day by day the rolling stock order quality is unraveling with it being clear that corners have been cut to save cash left right and center with half baked half measures in these FLIRT trains.

Presumably getting a fully UK spec unit would cost far too much so Abellio decided to go with a design that is off the shelf and shoehorn it aggressively in a manipulated way to fit the UK, regardless of whether it suited their passengers better or not. Don't worry though, they replaced every single train, EVERY SINGLE TRAIN, didn't you read the newspapers FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT, at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

We are going to be stuck with these trains for 30-40 years, considering what I heard from sources familiar with other rolling stock possibilities it's a crying shame that we did not get something which would have truly ticked all the boxes with no half measures in a rolling stock specification and bid which delivered quality rolling stock rather than a desire to be headline grabbing by focusing on quantity only.

I've always been the kind of person to believe that if you want a job doing well, best for it to take longer and to have quality and staying power and be up to the requirements of it with no corners cut without seeking grand headlines. Abellio appear to be in the mood of simply doing something as quickly and as cheapily as possible to look as good as possible in as much style as possible. I always preferred substance over style, still do.

By the way, one poster earlier in this thread said that off the shelf Electrostars would be cheaper and I said they are not, maybe now you are seeing what is cheaper that is also off the shelf?

What a load of Hogwash yes there might be some parts of the trains with steps but that counteracted by the fact that floors at the entrances will likely be closer to platform level than typical UK stock, so an elderly passenger should be able to get on the train without an awkward step up into the train and then find a priority seat in one of the low floor sections of the train. Have you ever been on a Sheffield Supertram for instance, the end of the train have steps up but then there is a whole central section with low floor which is at platform level so wheelchairs can get on without a ramp, and then that area has space for wheelchairs, prams and priority seating. Its not totally clear on those diagrams we have, but it strikes me the steps may only be at the ends on the train anyway.

Good grief are we getting the same hysterics as the slight ramp on the 800's.

 

[F Great Eastern]

My issues (from what I've seen so far) are not with the commuter stock, my issues are with the rest of it.

 

[TheEdge]

Extremely poor form that we're now bringing trains into this country with steps into passenger service, especially when I assume the local routes which have a large number of elderly passengers will be the same as well as on airport routes where stairs are not very welcome to say the last.

Hyperbole much? It looks like two fairly small steps over the articulated bogie. We are not talking about Daleks here, I doubt a small step is going to be the total defeat of everyone over 65. I'd bet my bottom dollar that step will be a damn sight smaller than the step from train to platform.

Looking at those floor plans the need for a bigger lobby to allow for steps has reduced the amount of capacity per carriage and obviously it will restrict standing room to a small degree as well versus a fully flat floor. This is truly disappointing and day by day the rolling stock order quality is unraveling with it being clear that corners have been cut to save cash left right and center with half baked half measures in these FLIRT trains.

Can we take it as read you just hate Abellio and they could have ordered gold plated super trains with a dancing girl to every seat and you would still complain? The amount of capacity point is a bit moot given these are not replacing high capacity trains, these are replacing 153s and 156s. They will be a big increase in capacity. What corners can you tell have been cut from a scanned line drawing?

Presumably getting a fully UK spec unit would cost far too much so Abellio decided to go with a design that is off the shelf and shoehorn it aggressively in a manipulated way to fit the UK, regardless of whether it suited their passengers better or not. Don't worry though, they replaced every single train, EVERY SINGLE TRAIN, didn't you read the newspapers FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT, at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

What are you on about? It is a fully UK spec unit, bear in mind FLIRT units have been built to run on the 1m Swiss routes which is somewhat more restrictive than the UK loading gauge so this is not without precedent.

We are going to be stuck with these trains for 30-40 years, considering what I heard from sources familiar with other rolling stock possibilities it's a crying shame that we did not get something which would have truly ticked all the boxes with no half measures in a rolling stock specification and bid which delivered quality rolling stock rather than a desire to be headline grabbing by focusing on quantity only.

You keep dropping that you seem to know the full details of every single bid and knew exactly what was planned to do and the outfitting of every planned unit. Now to me it smells like something from the rear end of a cow but if you do have this info both myself and most of the forum would be interested to know what you know. Also you must have already been to the Stadler plant and seen the AGA order as you are fully conversant with the outfitting and quality of the units.

I've always been the kind of person to believe that if you want a job doing well, best for it to take longer and to have quality and staying power and be up to the requirements of it with no corners cut without seeking grand headlines. Abellio appear to be in the mood of simply doing something as quickly and as cheapily as possible to look as good as possible in as much style as possible. I always preferred substance over style, still do.

Again, I return to the point that you quite clearly hate just Abellio.

 

[47802]

Thanks for that! You didn't have to put yourself at risk though

So they go with a power pack car then. Wonder how that would go with wheelchair users...

I think the power pack cars will only be on the Bi-Modes and providing a wheelchair user can access the Toilet from the wheelchair area is it really an issue.

 

[Domh245]

My original point was that Abellio could have gone for the older Electrostar design but are ordering Aventras, I'll be very surprised if the leasing costs for the new design are cheaper that the outgoing model but that hypothesis (and it was just that) was jumped upon in a rather surly fashion and without any supporting evidence.

That'd be because bombardier aren't offering any more Electrostars. The 387s were the last ones (for real this time)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the power pack cars will only be on the Bi-Modes and providing a wheelchair user can access the Toilet from the wheelchair area is it really an issue.

Wouldn't there need to be considerations about SDO?

 

[Wivenswold]

That'd be because bombardier aren't offering any more Electrostars. The 387s were the last ones (for real this time)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, thank you for confirming that.

 

[47802]

That'd be because bombardier aren't offering any more Electrostars. The 387s were the last ones (for real this time)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wouldn't there need to be considerations about SDO?

Somehow I doubt they are going to stop a train where you have to manoeuvre a wheelchair through a couple of carriages regardless of what train it is .

I don't see the relevance of Electrostar, Bombardier have moved on to what is meant to be a lighter cheaper to run train in Aventra. I'm sure it probably made sense for GWR and Porterbrook to take and end of production run 387's particularly since they had already ordered a few on the basis of getting more second hand units from Thameslink, but for a new large order such as this it clearly makes no sense.

 

[Haydn1971]

Have you ever been on a Sheffield Supertram for instance, the end of the train have steps up but then there is a whole central section with low floor which is at platform level so wheelchairs can get on without a ramp, and then that area has space for wheelchairs, prams and priority seating. Its not totally clear on those diagrams we have, but it strikes me the steps may only be at the ends on the train anyway.

Sheffield Supertram isn't as you claim, the end carriages have twin doors at platform level, with just some flip up seats and a wheelchair area - all other seating is up a step including the entire central carriage.

 

[47802]

Sheffield Supertram isn't as you claim, the end carriages have twin doors at platform level, with just some flip up seats and a wheelchair area - all other seating is up a step including the entire central carriage.

Well I'm not going to get a nit picking argument over super tram yes my mistake you are correct the doors are in the end cars with the centre car at high level, but the point still stand there is low floor section with a wheelchair area, some tip up seating and unless they have changed the layout since I was last on one there also a few normal seats at low floor level as well just before the steps.

Anyway getting back to the flirts if they offer easier access getting on the train by having a floor nearer to platform level along with Wheelchair, Toilet and some seating access at the low floor level then I don't see a great issue with it.

People who travel on European trains will know that steps are fairly common, plus we need to see what they are actually like rather than the usual jumping to conclusions, like the mountainous climb In the 800's.