GEML franchise 2016

[asylumxl]

High 90s Right time? I don't think so. Not without a large wedge of public differential!

What comes as no surprises is how low GTR is on the list.

And people with AGA complain?!

 

[samuelmorris]

I think really what the figure says, assuming it's accurate, is that the fault with c2c is less the service, rather the timetable. It must be an incredibly difficult task to build a railway timetable so I have great respect for those in charge of it, but the current timetable on c2c is simply defective, both in terms of journey times and also calling patterns. I use the service regularly, the punctuality hasn't really worsened at all by any noticeable amount, it's just that the services now suffer much worse crowding due to more questionable calling pattern, and every train arrives at its terminus 1-2 minutes late (which will fail RT but not PPM) because the timings are too tight.

Asylumxl: exactly my point, AGA issues are almost a complete non-entity by comparison at present, compared to GTR, and also to some extent ECML operators.

 

[HH]

Given the age of most of the current fleet and much of the infrastructure, it's not anywhere near as bad as it could be. Let's hope that the introduction of the new rolling stock goes relatively smoothly, or Incensed of Ipswich will really have something to complain about.

 

[dk1]

Are there enough Stansted Express sets for both the Norwich and Airport services?

Been confirmed in MR November issue that the 'stopper' to Norwich each hour will be worked by a mix of Adventra & Airport Express EMUs as a way of cycling the Stadler sets back to Crown Point for maintenance.

 

[Alfie1014]

Whilst it's good to see some of the detail emerging, the plans for the new trains in MR are dissapointing in some respects. The 12 car Norwich sets only appear to have 5 toilets for over 700 seats, that works out at about 1 per 140 passengers. About a quarter of that provided when the BR first introduced the MKIIIs and about half the number on the recently refurbished sets. The poor first class passengers appear to have to traipse through no less than 4 vehicles, including past the buffet counter and well into standard to spend a penny! The bi-modes seem to have only one loo, but to be fair GA do have plenty of experience of running trains without any working loos so no change there. I wonder if season ticket holders will get continence pads or stadium buddies which allow you to go whilst on the go!

But seriously with an aging population the quality of on train (and on station) facilities is very important, toilets especially so. It's interesting to compare the Norwich trains with SBBs similar but shorter (200m) EC250 trains being built by Stadler. They will only convey just over 400 passengers but will be provided with no less than 11 toilets, 1 for every 36 passengers, almost en-suite! Obviously the Swiss have weaker bladders than us East Anglians.

 

[grumblingalong]

Whilst it's good to see some of the detail emerging, the plans for the new trains in MR are dissapointing in some respects. The 12 car Norwich sets only appear to have 5 toilets for over 700 seats, that works out at about 1 per 140 passengers. About a quarter of that provided when the BR first introduced the MKIIIs and about half the number on the recently refurbished sets. The poor first class passengers appear to have to traipse through no less than 4 vehicles, including past the buffet counter and well into standard to spend a penny! The bi-modes seem to have only one loo, but to be fair GA do have plenty of experience of running trains without any working loos so no change there. I wonder if season ticket holders will get continence pads or stadium buddies which allow you to go whilst on the go!

But seriously with an aging population the quality of on train (and on station) facilities is very important, toilets especially so. It's interesting to compare the Norwich trains with SBBs similar but shorter (200m) EC250 trains being built by Stadler. They will only convey just over 400 passengers but will be provided with no less than 11 toilets, 1 for every 36 passengers, almost en-suite! Obviously the Swiss have weaker bladders than us East Anglians.

Those toilet numbers are mad, let's hope they change before the units are manufactured. Anyone have access to a link for the MR article?

 

[dk1]

Whilst it's good to see some of the detail emerging, the plans for the new trains in MR are dissapointing in some respects. The 12 car Norwich sets only appear to have 5 toilets for over 700 seats, that works out at about 1 per 140 passengers. About a quarter of that provided when the BR first introduced the MKIIIs and about half the number on the recently refurbished sets. The poor first class passengers appear to have to traipse through no less than 4 vehicles, including past the buffet counter and well into standard to spend a penny! The bi-modes seem to have only one loo, but to be fair GA do have plenty of experience of running trains without any working loos so no change there. I wonder if season ticket holders will get continence pads or stadium buddies which allow you to go whilst on the go!

But seriously with an aging population the quality of on train (and on station) facilities is very important, toilets especially so. It's interesting to compare the Norwich trains with SBBs similar but shorter (200m) EC250 trains being built by Stadler. They will only convey just over 400 passengers but will be provided with no less than 11 toilets, 1 for every 36 passengers, almost en-suite! Obviously the Swiss have weaker bladders than us East Anglians.

Only 7 toilets nowadays. Nothing in the TSOB.

 

[nesw]

Fewer toilets = increased seating and revenue. The new franchise is hugely dependent on selling more tickets and yield management.

 

[Wivenswold]

3 toilets in a 3 x 360 formation and no connections between units if one of those is out of action. I think 5 will suffice.

 

[Alfie1014]

I have to disagree Wivenswold I think the 360s are under provided most similar EMUs 375/377/450/350/380 have 2 or 3 toilets per unit. It's not unknown for GA to tweet out that toilets aren't available on Clacton/Ipswich services due to the one toilet being out of use. Be interesting to see how stakeholders react once the details become wider known. I've also had feedback from other users that they sometimes struggle to find a working loo on the refurbed Norwich sets.

I know the new franchise is piles them high, sell em (not so cheap) but these trains will be around for many years and short term cost cutting now may well be regretted in years to come.

 

[chubs]

You often have to wait to use the toilet in the MK3 sets now, and there's someone waiting when you get out. Never had that happen to me before the refurb.

I agree those toilet figures for the new stock are shockingly bad.

 

[47421]

The MR article confirms that of all the new units only the 10 intercity ones will have any first class, which means other than the Norwich expresses the entire franchise will be standard class only. That will be a big come down for some West Anglia/Stansted Express first class passengers used to the excellent 379 first class.

Do we have any detail of infrastructure changes planned on West Anglia? There are many stations that currently can only accommodate 8 cars. Given the standard peak service will be 10 cars from 2019 presumably many platforms will need to be extended. Do we have detailed info on which platforms will be extended and when? Will the new units have an option to not open doors just in one or two carriages so 10 cars can stop at 8 car platforms?

 

[grumblingalong]

The MR article confirms that of all the new units only the 10 intercity ones will have any first class, which means other than the Norwich expresses the entire franchise will be standard class only. That will be a big come down for some West Anglia/Stansted Express first class passengers used to the excellent 379 first class.

Do we have any detail of infrastructure changes planned on West Anglia? There are many stations that currently can only accommodate 8 cars. Given the standard peak service will be 10 cars from 2019 presumably many platforms will need to be extended. Do we have detailed info on which platforms will be extended and when? Will the new units have an option to not open doors just in one or two carriages so 10 cars can stop at 8 car platforms?

The details have escaped my brain at present but yes 8 car platforms on west anglia will be extended. I think overall the overcrowding issue much outweighs the provision of first on west Anglia routes, you only need to look on Twitter at the number of declassify requests on these trains daily.

 

[TheEdge]

I know the new franchise is piles them high, sell em (not so cheap) but these trains will be around for many years and short term cost cutting now may well be regretted in years to come.

I'd like to hope this mantra will be taken on given the issues that "old" AGA had inherited from the penny scrimping actions of NXEA. Things like the money saving removal of the Crown Point wheel lathe by NX... :roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

The details have escaped my brain at present but yes 8 car platforms on west anglia will be extended. I think overall the overcrowding issue much outweighs the provision of first on west Anglia routes, you only need to look on Twitter at the number of declassify requests on these trains daily.

Am I right in that the new 10 car trains are nudging 240m, ie 12 coaches in old money?

There are many people in that neck of the woods who will be interested to see how the platform extensions work out.

 

[SPADTrap]

Am I right in that the new 10 car trains are nudging 240m, ie 12 coaches in old money?

There are many people in that neck of the woods who will be interested to see how the platform extensions work out.

That is how I understand it also, a 10 car Aventra will be the same length as a 12 car FLIRT?

 

[TheEdge]

Am I right in that the new 10 car trains are nudging 240m, ie 12 coaches in old money?

There are many people in that neck of the woods who will be interested to see how the platform extensions work out.

The bottleneck platforms still remain at Liverpool Street. Its irrelevant how many platforms in the commuter belt at extended beyond 12 when Liverpool Street is staying at 12 and any extension is practically impossible without enourmous sums of money and disruption which will make the likes of the Shenfield work look minor.

 

[47421]

If someone has the detail on precisely which platforms will be extended and when, please do share. It is a big job and only 3 years to do it.

Do the existing plans for STAR enhancements by Dec 18 include longer platforms at Northumberland Park and Angel Road?

I don't know the Hertford East line, so in addition to any on HE line, they will need to do:

Northumberland Park
Angel Road
Ponders End
Brimsdown
Enfield Lock
Waltham Cross
Roydon
Harlow Mill
Elsenham
Newport
Great Chesterford
Shelford



Is selective door opening a no-no on a regular basis?

As an aside, currently as I understand it even though Brox and Cheshunt have 12 car platforms, selective door opening is mandatory and only front 8 can be opened. This is a safety requirement to stop drivers opening doors on 12 cars when they stop at an 8 car max platform, ie the outside platforms at Brox and the bay at Cheshunt

 

[Wivenswold]

Well, I won't miss 1st Class on commuter trains if it means a more comfortable journey throughout the train. However, I hope they do have a peace and quiet area. My Essex brethren aren't the quietest.

 

[Bald Rick]

The bottleneck platforms still remain at Liverpool Street. Its irrelevant how many platforms in the commuter belt at extended beyond 12 when Liverpool Street is staying at 12 and any extension is practically impossible without enourmous sums of money and disruption which will make the likes of the Shenfield work look minor.

But the max length is equivalent to a 12 car, so no issues at Liv St.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If someone has the detail on precisely which platforms will be extended and when, please do share. It is a big job and only 3 years to do it.

Do the existing plans for STAR enhancements by Dec 18 include longer platforms at Northumberland Park and Angel Road?

I don't think a plan with dates exists yet.

The contract has been let for Northumberland Park and Angel Road - no changes to existing platform length.

 

[Alfie1014]

Back to toilets issue, the 14:30 Norwich - Liv St today terminated at Ipswich due to the lack of working toilets, not the first time apparently since the refurb programme was completed.

 

[86246]

Back to toilets issue, the 14:30 Norwich - Liv St today terminated at Ipswich due to the lack of working toilets, not the first time apparently since the refurb programme was completed.

Apparently this is the second time recently for the 1700 ex LST. Would this be due to its diagram of spending the night at Ipswich and not at a depot ?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I know the new franchise is piles them high, sell em (not so cheap) but these trains will be around for many years and short term cost cutting now may well be regretted in years to come.

It is the bid with the highest level of risk that has been attached that I ever have seen because it promises so much that at first glance it looked a very tough job and I felt that's just if everything more or less went to plan and there was no delays or major problems introducing new rolling stock into service, if there were any problems with that or any unexpected complications then it becomes impossible.

However now it seems it's quite obvious there have been corners which have been cut in regards to the trains specification in order to deliver what they say they are going to in addition to the bid being ambitious. The problem is that Abellio are so interested in the headline grabbing ALL TRAINS ARE BEING REPLACED that it's a sheer case of quanitity over quality and that is what I have said from day one.

Essentially Abellio could have gone two ways.

Plan A
Replace the majority of trains with high quality ones without corners being cut and keep some of the older trains until the following franchise to be replaced at a later date.

Plan B
Replace everything and make the same amount of fund cover more trains, cut corners by reducing numbers of toilets, lowering specification to make everything possible.

Abellio chose option B, time will tell if it cuts it. I hope it does, I really do but I'm extremely skeptical about this.

 

[dk1]

Apparently this is the second time recently for the 1700 ex LST. Would this be due to its diagram of spending the night at Ipswich and not at a depot ?

P#ss poor planning. It's not like it wasn't known that this was going to be an issue when first proposed to put in CET & reduce the onboard toilet provision. To cancel the 17:00 East Anglian on a Friday has not gone down well.

Not sure what the answer is apart from tripping the set overnight to Crown Point for de-tanking, but the depot is stretched enough at times as it is.

 

[47802]

It is the bid with the highest level of risk that has been attached that I ever have seen because it promises so much that at first glance it looked a very tough job and I felt that's just if everything more or less went to plan and there was no delays or major problems introducing new rolling stock into service, if there were any problems with that or any unexpected complications then it becomes impossible.

However now it seems it's quite obvious there have been corners which have been cut in regards to the trains specification in order to deliver what they say they are going to in addition to the bid being ambitious. The problem is that Abellio are so interested in the headline grabbing ALL TRAINS ARE BEING REPLACED that it's a sheer case of quanitity over quality and that is what I have said from day one.

Essentially Abellio could have gone two ways.

Plan A
Replace the majority of trains with high quality ones without corners being cut and keep some of the older trains until the following franchise to be replaced at a later date.

Plan B
Replace everything and make the same amount of fund cover more trains, cut corners by reducing numbers of toilets, lowering specification to make everything possible.

Abellio chose option B, time will tell if it cuts it. I hope it does, I really do but I'm extremely skeptical about this.

So basically saying they are low quality trains because they have a few less Toilets than you would ideally like. Blimey

I also don't get this obsession with toilets that some people have on here, OK some people have medical issues which require frequent use of a toilet but that's not most people, I usually tend to avoid train toilets if possible, and despite being a fairly regular train traveller I cannot even remember the last time I used a train toilet. I spent 90 mins on a bus journey a few weeks ago no toilet on that.

 

[Wivenswold]

I can't see that Plan B is cutting corners. If they wanted the cheaper option they would have gone for 4 car Electrostars out of the box. Joe Public would only see new trains.

Likewise, a corner cutting option would have been to buy one type of EMU stock and put suburban EMUs on Norwich services.

I do agree that there's a lot of detail that seems to have been held back that may not be quite as good news. But to suggest the only bid of 3 which renewed the entire AGA fleet was done on the cheap does not stack up.

 

[DasLunatic]

P#ss poor planning. It's not like it wasn't known that this was going to be an issue when first proposed to put in CET & reduce the onboard toilet provision. To cancel the 17:00 East Anglian on a Friday has not gone down well.

Not sure what the answer is apart from tripping the set overnight to Crown Point for de-tanking, but the depot is stretched enough at times as it is.

Is there not provision for this at Ilford and Colchester depots? If not, how much would it cost to install CET faclilities at these depots?

 

[F Great Eastern]

f they wanted the cheaper option they would have gone for 4 car Electrostars

You should change your sources, because the ones which you have are not very good if they have told you that.

Bombardier Electrostars were not the cheapest for non commuter stock.

One operator proposed Siemens Mireo (which were not cheapest either)

 

[dk1]

Is there not provision for this at Ilford and Colchester depots? If not, how much would it cost to install CET faclilities at these depots?

Intercity sets do not deal with Colchester or Ilford. Only Crown Point & Orient Way. It's the set that forms the 23:05 Norwich-Ipswich that then stables that has an issue. It returns as the 06:39 to Norwich next day but only has 36mins before returning as the 08:00 Up. Only option apart from swapping sets & messing all diagrams the previous evening at Norwich seems to be to trip it back for a flush overnight. Installation of more CET equipment would be very expensive.

Just to update on the above. Silly me, the 23:05 forms the 05:14 Ipswich-Liverpool St. The 06:39 Ipswich-Norwich is formed by the 05:43 ECS from Norwich Low Level.

 

[HH]

Intercity sets do not deal with Colchester or Ilford. Only Crown Point & Orient Way. It's the set that forms the 23:05 Norwich-Ipswich that then stables that has an issue. It returns as the 06:39 to Norwich next day but only has 36mins before returning as the 08:00 Up. Only option apart from swapping sets & messing all diagrams the previous evening at Norwich seems to be to trip it back for a flush overnight. Installation of more CET equipment would be very expensive.

There must be other diagramming options. How full is the 23:05?