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GEML franchise 2016

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northwichcat

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The quality score makes a significant difference now. I'm led to believe (I.e. I don't know as I'm not involved, but have heard on the well informed grapevine) that at least one recent franchise was won by a bidder that did not have the best financial case.

Possibly First and TPE? Stagecoach and Kelios reportedly submitted bids proposing a pre-electrification solution of loco-hauled 442s refurbished to an appropriate standard while First won with a bid involving bi-modes and loco-hauled.
 
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hwl

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Don't forget that Abellio aren't spending 'an extra billion' on rolling stock. All they are laying is the higher lease cost of new vs old, and only then for 9 years. The extra quality score almost certainly outweighs the additional cost. (Which, as you correctly say, is lower than it might have been more recently).

The lower maintenance requirements and maintenance cost of the new stock will help swing things towards newer stock to.

A more uniform fleet with higher availability and fewer spare units will also cost less with fewer units required overall.
 

The Ham

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... with fewer units required overall.

Although there will be (even allowing for counting 3 coach unit as one coach when they are replacing the 153's) I think that there will still be more coaches overall in the new fleet than there is in the old fleet.
 

hwl

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Although there will be (even allowing for counting 3 coach unit as one coach when they are replacing the 153's) I think that there will still be more coaches overall in the new fleet than there is in the old fleet.

What I meant was fewer units to provide and equivalent level of service without cancellation or short forms (e.g. ignoring longer trains, extra trains for new services)
 

Robin1966

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The state the track is in currently is diabolical, with numerous speed restrictions in place....

Hi, apologies if there was any further discussion on this subject that I haven't noticed, but I was wondering just how bad the track is on the GEML. I am aware that there has been a historic lack of investment on the line, having read bits of this thread and other articles elsewhere.

Cheers :D
 

QueensCurve

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I'm fully expecting PRM-TSI to be done away with or weakened to the extent that it allows existing stock to continue in use beyond the 2020 deadline, my understanding is that exiting the EU will allow a UK only legislation like RVAR or something to take its place. That being said, converting units like 321s to that standard does not necessitate refurbishment of the scope of the Renatus project - the 319 modifications done at Thameslink are a prime example of that. I imagine that cost a fraction as much per unit.

Another wonderful Brexit Dividend!

Problem is that lower regulations don't help with the protection of, in this case, disabled people. And do we for that reason really want weaker regulation anyway?

And of course if we want to sell things to Europe we will have to make them to comply with European regulations anyway.

We won't be able to profitably return to building Pacers or Austin 1100s any time soon.
 

northwichcat

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Another wonderful Brexit Dividend!

Problem is that lower regulations don't help with the protection of, in this case, disabled people. And do we for that reason really want weaker regulation anyway?

And of course if we want to sell things to Europe we will have to make them to comply with European regulations anyway.

We won't be able to profitably return to building Pacers or Austin 1100s any time soon.

It was John Major's government who decided on the DDA deadlines and Gordon Brown's government who merged DDA in to the Equalities Act. While there's disability legislation in all EU countries other EU countries aren't working to the same dates and don't have all the same requirements.

Saying leaving the EU will allow us to scrap or change PRM-TSI is a bit like saying we can remove the 100kmh speed limits for HGVs over 7.5T as a result of leaving the EU even though they were limited to 60mph by UK law before the EU imposed a 62mph (100kmh) maximum.
 

Wolfie

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It was John Major's government who decided on the DDA deadlines and Gordon Brown's government who merged DDA in to the Equalities Act. While there's disability legislation in all EU countries other EU countries aren't working to the same dates and don't have all the same requirements.

Saying leaving the EU will allow us to scrap or change PRM-TSI is a bit like saying we can remove the 100kmh speed limits for HGVs over 7.5T as a result of leaving the EU even though they were limited to 60mph by UK law before the EU imposed a 62mph (100kmh) maximum.

You know that, I know that, but trying telling many Brexiters that..... the EU is wicked and everything is its fault you know.... <D
 

AM9

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... a bit like saying we can remove the 100kmh speed limits for HGVs over 7.5T as a result of leaving the EU ...

Come on, get into the new (old) ideom, it's 62.137119224mph speed limits for HGVs over 7.5 Tons which means a reduction of 265.3303365 pounds. :)
 

306024

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I'm glad someone got the joke :lol:
I thought I may have to retrieve a coat.

I thought you had. I tried to get a MOANER as a brand, but couldn't make it work.

Winning a bid is all about knowing how to play the game. That is why those who know how to run a railway are useless in bid teams, too much knowledge. (Cynical but true).

As for the question on GEML track quality, it isn't too bad just now considering the hammering it gets.
 

Dave1987

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Hi, apologies if there was any further discussion on this subject that I haven't noticed, but I was wondering just how bad the track is on the GEML. I am aware that there has been a historic lack of investment on the line, having read bits of this thread and other articles elsewhere.

Cheers :D

It was terrible but since the management have done a bit of kicking ass and chewing bubble gum it's got better. Still a few dotted around but certainly no where near as bad as it was last year. NR has had this HOBC thing going around for the last year or so and the overheads are getting upgraded as well. Along with this new fleet things are actually starting to look pretty rosy in the future despite those that are supposedly 'moving away' simply because of who won the franchise.
 

Bald Rick

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Hi, apologies if there was any further discussion on this subject that I haven't noticed, but I was wondering just how bad the track is on the GEML. I am aware that there has been a historic lack of investment on the line, having read bits of this thread and other articles elsewhere.

Cheers :D

Having spent a fair proportion of my working life knee deep in ballast on the GEML putting new track in, I'm surprised at the comments. Some of the current TSRs are due to Level Crossing issues, not track quality. As 306024 says, given the hammering it gets from heavy freight and 100mph passenger trains, it is in remarkably good condition. I can't think of any other line in the country that gets the punishment that the GEML does, and those that come close aren't built on clay and fen.
 

Dave1987

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Having spent a fair proportion of my working life knee deep in ballast on the GEML putting new track in, I'm surprised at the comments. Some of the current TSRs are due to Level Crossing issues, not track quality. As 306024 says, given the hammering it gets from heavy freight and 100mph passenger trains, it is in remarkably good condition. I can't think of any other line in the country that gets the punishment that the GEML does, and those that come close aren't built on clay and fen.

Hmmm, there were numerous speed restrictions dotted around because of the condition of the track (as detailed in the WON). But like I said it has got better recently.
 

adrock1976

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Regarding the overhead wires on the GEML, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the electrification system dates back to 1949 on the section between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield.

As OHLE equipment is designed to have an operational lifespan of 60 years, does this mean that this section is being replaced and upgraded?

Furthermore, I believe it is the same if not similar design (the masts and portals at least, as the portals have the inverted "A" bracket for the registration arms to fit onto - forgive me if I've got the name of the part wrong) that is used on the section of the Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire Railway between Manchester and Hadfield/Glossop. Could somebody confirm if that is the case or not?
 

Dave1987

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Regarding the overhead wires on the GEML, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the electrification system dates back to 1949 on the section between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield.

As OHLE equipment is designed to have an operational lifespan of 60 years, does this mean that this section is being replaced and upgraded?

Furthermore, I believe it is the same if not similar design (the masts and portals at least, as the portals have the inverted "A" bracket for the registration arms to fit onto - forgive me if I've got the name of the part wrong) that is used on the section of the Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire Railway between Manchester and Hadfield/Glossop. Could somebody confirm if that is the case or not?

Er think that is a question Philip can answer best!
 

LAX54

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Hi, apologies if there was any further discussion on this subject that I haven't noticed, but I was wondering just how bad the track is on the GEML. I am aware that there has been a historic lack of investment on the line, having read bits of this thread and other articles elsewhere.

Cheers :D

HOBC has been out and about now for some many months between Norwich and Witham, so that bit must be getting better ! :lol:
 

Bald Rick

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Regarding the overhead wires on the GEML, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the electrification system dates back to 1949 on the section between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield.

As OHLE equipment is designed to have an operational lifespan of 60 years, does this mean that this section is being replaced and upgraded?

Furthermore, I believe it is the same if not similar design (the masts and portals at least, as the portals have the inverted "A" bracket for the registration arms to fit onto - forgive me if I've got the name of the part wrong) that is used on the section of the Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire Railway between Manchester and Hadfield/Glossop. Could somebody confirm if that is the case or not?

Yes, electric trains were introduced between Liverpool St and Shenfield on 31/12/1949, the first one was driven by the Minister for Tranpsort himself (accidentally, as it turns out).

The electrification was done in the couple of years before that, to a pre-war design. It was 1500v DC, and converted to 25kV AC (6.25kV AC from Chadwell Heath inwards) in the 50s over a long weekend. Although that sounds dramatic, actually it was fairly simple work; a lot of preparation and a simple switch over. The difficult part was getting the right trains (AC or DC) in the right places at the right time. The equipment is similar in design to that used on the 1500v DC system via Woodhead that was electrified around the same time.

Many of the structures are still in good enough condition that they have been reused for the re-electrification that has been ongoing since 2007. Some are being removed. The main differences are:

1) the new contact wire can be smaller in cross section, as it carries lower current than the original DC specified kit was designed to do (the contact wire was not changed when the conversion was done in the 50s)

2) the old kit was 'fixed tension' ie stretched* into place on each length and bolted* there. It is subject to thermal expansion like any metal, so in hot temperatures, like today, it sags and is more prone to failure. Hence speed restrictions on hot days. The new kit is 'auto tensioned' which as the name implies automatically adjusts the tension as the wire expands / contracts through temperature variation. When the whole route is done, there will be no need for summer speed restrictions for the OLE.

3) the old design was of a 'compound' form, partly because of the fixed tension. Between the contact wire and the catenary wire (the highest supporting wire, that sags over the longitudinal length between masts) there is an auxiliary wire. This helps keep the fixed tension contact wire in the right place.


Taken together, the old system has 3 thick wires in the air, plus lots of droppers between them. This is all heavy, and needed some big structures (masts, portals etc) and small part steelwork to hold it all up.

The new kit is much more lightweight, no auxiliary wire, and therefore needs less to hold it up. This is partly offset by the big structures needed to anchor each length and support the tensioning weights. Nevertheless, 3 times as much metal comes out compared to what goes back in; and the new stuff will be so much more reliable.

* technical terms.

Mr Phlopp may be along later to correct / add to the above.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Regarding the overhead wires on the GEML, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the electrification system dates back to 1949 on the section between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield.

As OHLE equipment is designed to have an operational lifespan of 60 years, does this mean that this section is being replaced and upgraded?

Furthermore, I believe it is the same if not similar design (the masts and portals at least, as the portals have the inverted "A" bracket for the registration arms to fit onto - forgive me if I've got the name of the part wrong) that is used on the section of the Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire Railway between Manchester and Hadfield/Glossop. Could somebody confirm if that is the case or not?

Broadly, I believe they are all the same LNER design, and date originally from the 1930s (Woodhead and Shenfield not completed until after WW2).
Not to forget the MSJ&A to Altrincham (1931), now part of Metrolink.
The Shenfield route was upgraded to 6.25/25kV AC in the 1950s, and has recently been rewired and upgraded.
I think they are now at work on the slightly newer Shenfield-Chelmsford section.

After that, I should think the Glossop line is the oldest remaining OHLE, although it was converted to AC in the 1980s.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.
We'll soon be into 60-years-plus on the late-50s BR AC schemes (Manchester, Liverpool, Crewe, Glasgow, Southend, Clacton etc).
 
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AM9

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Er think that is a question Philip can answer best!

The wiring has had more than one update.
Around 1960, the line was converted to ac at 6.25kV as far as Shenfield (and Southend). The OLE was largely unchanged using the same wire and insulators.
In the '70s the ac voltage was raised to the standard 25kV. This involved replacing the insulators with larger 25kV types and also improving the clearance under some structures.
With increasing problems during hot weather, the fixed tension and registration system installed on the original DC electrification was replaced more recently with modern Furrer & Frey components. Some of the original 'A framed' gantries are still in use today though.
As Dave1987 has said above, Philip can probably give the dates and more technical details of this.
 

NotATrainspott

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Previously, the best financial bid won, and that was that.

The quality score makes a significant difference now. I'm led to believe (I.e. I don't know as I'm not involved, but have heard on the well informed grapevine) that at least one recent franchise was won by a bidder that did not have the best financial case.

Don't forget that Abellio aren't spending 'an extra billion' on rolling stock. All they are laying is the higher lease cost of new vs old, and only then for 9 years. The extra quality score almost certainly outweighs the additional cost. (Which, as you correctly say, is lower than it might have been more recently).

It was Abellio ScotRail you're thinking of. National Express had the cheapest bid, with Abellio a close second, but Abellio had the best quality score out of all the bidders and so won the franchise.
 

Philip Phlopp

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The wiring has had more than one update.
Around 1960, the line was converted to ac at 6.25kV as far as Shenfield (and Southend). The OLE was largely unchanged using the same wire and insulators.
In the '70s the ac voltage was raised to the standard 25kV. This involved replacing the insulators with larger 25kV types and also improving the clearance under some structures.
With increasing problems during hot weather, the fixed tension and registration system installed on the original DC electrification was replaced more recently with modern Furrer & Frey components. Some of the original 'A framed' gantries are still in use today though.
As Dave1987 has said above, Philip can probably give the dates and more technical details of this.

I don't think there's anything much left to add.

The Great Eastern renewal scheme makes use of what is now a bespoke electrification system, named GEFF (Great Eastern Furrer+Frey) from which Series 1 is partially developed. There's good commonality with parts (they also find use in areas of the Series 2 schemes - there's some Series 1 parts at Glasgow Queen Street, involved in the transition from Series 2 to ROC.

GEFF is used rather than Series 1 for a couple of reasons - it pre-dates Series 1, so that's sort of one big reason, but even if Series 1 existed at the time, it couldn't be used, it needs a semi-bespoke design to make use of the old structures and because of clearance on the actual portals. They're actually too low to fit both contact wire and catenary wire under the portal and maintain air gap clearance, which rules out the usual Series 1 cantilever arms, and requires a custom solution which has the registration arm on a separately insulated drop tube, with the catenary wire held on a second (usually horizontal) tube attached to a second insulator and onto the portal.

GEFF also uses weighted (auto) tensioning rather than spring auto tensioning (the Tensorex units which look like an old drum), which also creates some significant differences down at the tensioning end of the cable run.

It's not actually ideal having wire runs over the top of portals, it tends to encourage bird strikes, with birds tending to fly just above the height of the portals as they come in to sit on them, and hitting the catenary cables in the process, which is where the GWML scheme with slightly higher portals scores greatly - keeping all the wiring below the level of horizontal portal components, but I'm digressing.

Bald Rick is absolutely spot on about weight and scrap coming out. The lower weights, simplified components and lower profiles of components reduces wind loading on structures and stress on insulators, which all helps with the reliability, even the registration arms have cutouts to reduce weight and wind loading.
 

Bald Rick

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I think they are now at work on the slightly newer Shenfield-Chelmsford section.

I haven't been involved for quite a few years, however Shenfield - Chelmsford was largely done (on one line at least) a long time ago. Shenfield itself still needs doing; that is this Christmas I believe. There some to do around Stratford, and possibly a few runs on the difficult middle lines, but that's almost that.
 

387star

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What are the plans for the present fleet then to take us to 2019?

The 317/6 and 317/5 have just been refurbished but haven't had the full mods... nor have the 321s although I thought they were starting on this? so the planned 321 job will now be abandoned?

The mk3s have been refreshed

the 170s have had new seat covers as have the 360s but hopefully more than that... can we expect the 170s and 360s to at least have a new livery now?

317/8s are also untouched

would be nice for the 153s and 156s to also gain a fuller livery
 

Philip Phlopp

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What are the plans for the present fleet then to take us to 2019?

The 317/6 and 317/5 have just been refurbished but haven't had the full mods... nor have the 321s although I thought they were starting on this? so the planned 321 job will now be abandoned?

The mk3s have been refreshed

the 170s have had new seat covers as have the 360s but hopefully more than that... can we expect the 170s and 360s to at least have a new livery now?

317/8s are also untouched

would be nice for the 153s and 156s to also gain a fuller livery

Do the maximum for reliability and the minimum for everything else, there's no need to be wasting any money at all on re-branding stock, when it could be spent on station accessibility, better PIS on stations etc.
 

306024

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Shenfield itself still needs doing; that is this Christmas I believe. There some to do around Stratford, and possibly a few runs on the difficult middle lines, but that's almost that.

Total shut down at Shenfield this Christmas, but the work starts in earnest in September with the stripping out of existing junctions, and goes right through to Mayday 2017. The only part of the track layout that stays the same is the country end junction to the Southend line off platform 3.

Big wiring job at Gidea Park too, but yes it is the difficult bits that remain to be done.
 

chubs

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I thought a lot of the overhead wiring around Shenfield was redone around 2003-4, when the line was shut every weekend?

The 170's really need a deep clean and someone with a screwdriver to make everything tight before it rattles to pieces. A refurbishment seems pointless but despite being some of the newest stock they really aren't nice to travel on these days, compared to when first introduced.
 
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170s need a good deep clean and internal refurb, there are units without wall coverings atm. Plugs, wifi and a white repaint wouldn't do the ROSCO any harm.
 

Bald Rick

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I thought a lot of the overhead wiring around Shenfield was redone around 2003-4, when the line was shut every weekend?

Nope, that was trackwork. A small remodelling at Shenfiled (that involved some OLE work) and a lot of track renewal between Shenfield and Chelmsford. Yours truly was out a lot of Sunday nights those years. I think Mrs BR thought I had a secret woman in Shenfield.
 
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dubscottie

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Is it really any less flexible that a modern MU? Its not like they can split or reformed with any great ease.

I am not sure if Anglia still do it, but crown point never had a fixed set policy.

Hopefully they will do what Irish Rail did and cut all the unnecessary computer systems out the design.

Too much software in trains now..
 

northwichcat

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It was Abellio ScotRail you're thinking of. National Express had the cheapest bid, with Abellio a close second, but Abellio had the best quality score out of all the bidders and so won the franchise.

I thought National Express had proposed to use brand new Intercity trains. Will the HSTs be more expensive to operate than new trains?

Abellio proposed releasing all the 170s and keeping all the Sprinters. However, after awarding Abellio the franchise Transport Scotland decided to increase the subsidy so that more diesel trains could be retained also with smaller Sprinters getting released in favour of keeping larger 170s.
 
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