GEML franchise 2016

[J-2739]

I do wonder what the widths of the articulated trains will be. I suppose wider than 2.8m?

 

[Haydn1971]

I do wonder what the widths of the articulated trains will be. I suppose wider than 2.8m?

Wide body... Hmm... Could upset some passengers

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seriously though, a short wide body could end up with 2+3 seating in standard class...

 

[samuelmorris]

If the Stadler stock is articulated as per the CGI artwork released, the carriage lengths are going to be around 18.5 metres.

I think that's probably quite unlikely given the "10 car trains of 240m length" mentioned previously, and even disregarding that, limiting the trains to 185m when there's room for 30% more than that would make very little sense. 18.5m vehicle length doesn't really suit intercity services anyway.

Seriously though, a short wide body could end up with 2+3 seating in standard class...

I certainly hope not, UK loading gauge requirements make 2+3 pretty unpleasant when all 3 seats in the +3 are occupied.

 

[class387]

What makes you say that? How is a Mk 4 more superior than say, a Pendolino?

A Pendolino is hardly the best example of when an unit is better than LHCS, but I still think that the Flirts will be superior to the Mk3s used currently, unless they get a GWR or VTEC style refurb.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Many of them just have a pure hatred of EMU's, they even complained about the 444s that were proposed many years ago, the negativity in the local press was overwhelming in it's nature.

Unless these Intercity trains provide a proper buffet with proper catering (not a shop) with proper tables, proper first class and proper ambiance with end doors not 1/3 doors and proper noise isolation between the carriages, they are going to be restless.

This sounds like the 450s on Portsmouth routes instead of 444s argument. It wasn't just negative press in that respect. It went to select committees, the Lib Dem and Tory MPs worked together to bring this to a debate in the commons. Guess what? Portsmouth travellers get on 450s. They have little choice during the peaks.

Norwich commuters will get used to their new trains. BTW I seem to recall the 444s were argued as an old design in the Norwich papers.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think that's probably quite unlikely given the "10 car trains of 240m length" mentioned previously

The Bombardier units are 10 cars long with 24m (over couplers) vehicles. The Stadler units are 12 cars long, they'll average around 18.5m for the 10 intermediate vehicles (that's all that can be fitted within the UK loading gauge when using articulated stock) and leading vehicles around 20-21 metres, which works out to something in the region of 245-250 metres.

 

[samuelmorris]

D'oh, got that totally mixed up, my apologies. Quite right, so 12x18.5m is entirely possible then. With those figures though, i get 185+42 = 227m even with the upper estimate of 21m for the leading vehicle. If using an articulated train with singular doors per vehicle as per the render, it seems a bit of a waste to go substantially below 240m. Is there a limitation in the Flirt specification that means it can't exceed 12 vehicles per set?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Bombardier units are 10 cars long with 24m (over couplers) vehicles. The Stadler units are 12 cars long, they'll average around 18.5m for the 10 intermediate vehicles (that's all that can be fitted within the UK loading gauge when using articulated stock) and leading vehicles around 20-21 metres, which works out to something in the region of 245-250 metres.

Class 373s have 14/18 intermediate cars (of 18.7m).
They seemed to work OK on Channel Tunnel routes (full length sets) and ECML/WCML south sets/WLL/NLL (NoL sets).

 

[J-2739]

Class 373s have 14/18 intermediate cars (of 18.7m).
They seemed to work OK on Channel Tunnel routes (full length sets) and ECML/WCML south sets/WLL/NLL (NoL sets).

Weren't the North of London sets restricted to several routes due to gauging issues at Newcastle though?
(You might have mentioned it in your posts though)

 

[Bungle965]

Weren't the North of London sets restricted to several routes due to gauging issues at Newcastle though?
(You might have mentioned it in your posts though)

In addition to the power shortages meaning that they were limited to their routes also. In short they were not ideal for that sort of work.
Sam

 

[WatcherZero]

The Swiss high speed variant which everyone is presuming this would be based off is 11car 202m while all Stadlers other Intercity are broad gauge with 25m cars and nearly 4m width or 25m and slightly narrower than UK which is much narrower than normal for European gauge.

 

[Dave1987]

Two full extra vehicles' worth is quite a substantial capacity increase. I haven't seen anything too precise regarding vehicle length, but on the assumption that they are 24m vehicles to make up the 240m total length, that's a fair 16% increase in 'passenger vehicle' space.

Also, again, this is my point - that 32000 extra seats I thought applied to the franchise as a whole, not even just including the GE but also the WA as well. Although you might hope this not to be the case, there's no obligation for a single one of those 32000 extra seats to be from intercity services.

As far as making up the required diagrams is concerned, I think from what we've seen so far, at least one of the Norwich diagrams being operated by a conventional commuter EMU is a certainty - for now I'm going to go with it being an 'all stations' affair like the xx02 service to Ipswich is now. However, given that there will be a direct service to Lowestoft operating in addition to it, I'm curious to see how that is actually scheduled.

There are only going to be 4 services from Lowestoft to London.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

An assumption is being made that they are 12 car sets, just want to put it out there that they could be 2 X 6 car sets. I'm probably talking rubbish but is that not a possibility?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Weren't the North of London sets restricted to several routes due to gauging issues at Newcastle though?
(You might have mentioned it in your posts though)

They were used on the ECML to Leeds/York and on the WCML to Manchester via Crewe (on test, before the NoL plan was abandoned).
From Waterloo they ran on standard NR infrastructure via Bromley South and Orpington/Maidstone to Ashford and the Tunnel before the CTRL was built.
There were electrical interface issues before they started, and might have had clearance problems elsewhere.
One newly-built unit received damage from a bridge while being hauled from Washwood Heath to North Pole, somewhere in Oxfordshire I think.
But there obviously isn't a blanket ban on having more than 12-car articulated vehicles, even on the winding routes through south London.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

D'oh, got that totally mixed up, my apologies. Quite right, so 12x18.5m is entirely possible then. With those figures though, i get 185+42 = 227m even with the upper estimate of 21m for the leading vehicle. If using an articulated train with singular doors per vehicle as per the render, it seems a bit of a waste to go substantially below 240m. Is there a limitation in the Flirt specification that means it can't exceed 12 vehicles per set?

They'll be a bit longer than 227m when you measure length over couplers, I'd think, but certainly somewhere between 220m and 250m depending on how it's all configured with articulation, whether there's retractable couplers fitted (don't think so from the images) would be reasonable.

If they're short, I'd guess traction equipment limitations will have come into play, keeping the sets slightly shorter than ideal, though that then opens up a lengthening program in future years, very much like the Alstom Pendolino package which includes a third transformer needed for the two additional coaches.

 

[samuelmorris]

There are only going to be 4 services from Lowestoft to London.

Are these likely to be peak services do we think? If so, I imagine they'd need to run them as 8-car services at the very least, in which case perhaps the units would split?

Having just re-read both the introduction dates and the stock page from Railway Gazette, I now interpret it a little differently. The Flirt units are shown as being introduced in 2019, the Aventra units in 2020 - ergo it seems likely that all those 'January 2019, February 2019, March 2019' commitments from DfT, if they happen at all, will be using Stadler stock.

For Stansted Express, Intercity and Rural services what that means is fairly obvious. For 'Great Eastern' I can only assume that either the Marks Tey - Colchester Town service counts as Great Eastern, that the London - Lowestoft services will start before replacement of any of the GEML fleet prompting the bimode units to be the first to operate to the likes of Shenfield, Witham etc. - or that some of the Flirt units will be used on regular GEML services e.g. Clacton or Braintree, or perhaps, that they'll do some of the branch line runs like Harwich or Southminster, due to there being so many more of them than the DMUs they're replacing, becoming interchangeable with the Bombardier units. The latter case all seems unlikely, but given they're going from 8 types of stock to just three, perhaps every driver can be trained on all three units allowing them to inter-operate. That would justify the extensive consolidation of the fleet, which I think many would argue is otherwise unnecessary.

For the West Anglia side, I can only assume something similar - either that the Stansted Express units run regular services e.g. to Cambridge whilst the 379s are still supporting, or perhaps that again, the 3 or 4-car units will venture further south than Stansted.

 

[Dave1987]

TBH the announcement from the DFT is so vague that I don't believe anyone can predict what order the new trains will be coming in and which lines will see them first until more details are released. Once the ten day period is up we should start to see more detail than just the headline grabbing PR the DFT wanted plastered all over the local press.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

What will also be interesting is what changes we'll see between now and the new trains arriving.. now abellio have the franchise in the long term and extra mk3 carriages becoming available we may see the 8 / 9 carriage sets strengthened early.

 

[samuelmorris]

TBH the announcement from the DFT is so vague that I don't believe anyone can predict what order the new trains will be coming in and which lines will see them first until more details are released. Once the ten day period is up we should start to see more detail than just the headline grabbing PR the DFT wanted plastered all over the local press.

Agreed, there are certain conflictory statements, such as the 'controlled emission toilets by 1 January 2020' - clearly if the Aventra units were only to start arriving in 2020, they are aimed at replacing 317s and 321s, the vast majority of which do not yet fulfill this requirement - so either they will still all be modified within that timespan, or one of those two statements isn't accurate.

 

[BuryBlue]

I hope the Sunday service improves. Right now I am sat in my work break room waiting for the 21.02 home, having missed the 19.02 from Ipswich!

 

[grumblingalong]

I hope the Sunday service improves. Right now I am sat in my work break room waiting for the 21.02 home, having missed the 19.02 from Ipswich!

Internal rumours from a long time have been that Abellio want rid of any two hourly frequencies. Saturday equivalent service for Sunday's I believe is on the cards.

 

[306024]

Not just Abellio. Remember quite a few of the people involved have been there long before Abellio were awarded the franchise. The difference with Abellio is that they seem to have access to funds that the bus bandits can only dream of.

Driver (and where appropriate conductor) training, mentioned in passing previously, will determine the rate of introduction of all these new trains. And while all these crews are being trained the day job has to be covered too. Finally, if you want Saturday frequencies on Sunday, then Sunday has to be in the working week and rostered accordingly.

Lots of logistical challenges ahead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wide body... Hmm... Could upset some passengers

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seriously though, a short wide body could end up with 2+3 seating in standard class...

Doubtful, 3+2 is now right out of favour.

I expect something very much like:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-view/view/pkp-intercity-flirt-presented.html


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An assumption is being made that they are 12 car sets, just want to put it out there that they could be 2 X 6 car sets. I'm probably talking rubbish but is that not a possibility?

It has been stated that they are 12 car sets.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Mikey C]

Hope I'm wrong but the new EMUs I'm fairly certain are the cheaper end of the market and will have denser seating. Realistically that was always going to happen, at least they've kept the intercity spec. The plus is that like other recently emu replacement programs, they'll probably need replacing more frequently than the loco / coach combos.

In the end as long as it remains intercity spec and runs on time and reliability is good then anything else is bonus.

The 317s and 321 are hardly the height of luxury and space, I'd be staggered if the new EMUs weren't an improvement

 

[jon0844]

The 317s and 321 are hardly the height of luxury and space, I'd be staggered if the new EMUs weren't an improvement

Given what you can do to an HST to make it look like a modern train on the inside, I'm sure any Mk3 coach can be made to look great, with all new seating, accessible toilets, better lighting, power sockets, Wi-Fi, air conditioning etc.

I am sure the 321s in particular have plenty of life left in them. And if they're withdrawn en masse, it means the ROSCO can do all of that work much easier.

 

[cmovcc]

The 317s and 321 are hardly the height of luxury and space, I'd be staggered if the new EMUs weren't an improvement

317/5 I'd agree, however if it ends up being 3+2 seating I'll keep the 317/6'es please!

 

[samuelmorris]

Honestly, I thought the 321448 demonstrator was absolutely fine in the 2+2 section (doors excluding). Not everyone likes the colour scheme but that's hardly important (personally speaking I actually found it grew on me but was never going to be rolled out en masse) - the interior of almost any train can be as good or bad as you make it, both from specification standpoint and from upkeep/cleanliness.

They may not be very glamorous units, but the 321s will survive on just replacement seat covers (and arguably, the PoS PIS should also be replaced!) but the 317/5 and 317/8 units need a lot more work, both from a reliability standpoint and also interior state of repair, until I travelled on one earlier this year (on LO I concede) I had no idea what a poor state they were in. Given their age I think it makes sense to scrap the first-batch 317s, probably along with their GN partners, which may be able to fill in for spares during the interval between the two fleet replacements. Assuming that they'll only all be displaced by H2 2020, that's 37-39 years which is pretty acceptable for an EMU, especially one without a mid-life replacement.

The 317/6s arguably could carry on elsewhere given their 5 year difference in age and far better condition with recent refit. The question is though, with 100 321s going spare at the same time, is there any point in keeping them?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Apologies if it has been mentioned, but what is the catering spec for the intercity route please?

 

[dk1]

Apologies if it has been mentioned, but what is the catering spec for the intercity route please?

Buffet or Trolley. They won't specify which just yet. More news after the standstill period hopefully.

 

[LAX54]

15th August 2016: 1P40 running as 9P40 due to disruption;
LIVERPOOL STREET TO NORWICH 87 MINS LON-IPS-NOR only.