GEML franchise 2016

[J-2739]

I know you can't trust initial publicity, but the Stadlers do look articulated in the Railway Gazette article (both types).
They don't show the power pack pod though in the bi-mode.
Nothing on the Stadler site yet.

The power pack is only on the GTW model, which is an articulated railcar. The FLIRTs are multiple units and don't come with its own power pack pod.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Spoke to a source tonight, very surprised at the numbers that have been speculated as others n the thread have alluded to, but not surprised of the political nature of the rolling stock bid, although post EU exit and with it on the horizon, it will allow TOC's and the DFT more flexability with rolling stock tender and ordering processes.

Personally whilst I think that it's great we're getting so many trains and the franchise badly needs it and is very ambitious, I think we've gone from one extreme to the other, I would have preferred a bit being accepted which was based on quality rather than quantity of rolling stock.

There is no real need to replace the 360s or the 170s or the 379s. It's a waste of taxpayers money and I'd far prefered they ordered less units than this headline grabbing stunt and focused on dealing with many of the other issues, but instead we'll get penny pinching if they are going to make the repayments.

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Interesting to see AEA go against the norm and go for Stadler Flirt trains instead of the more conventional Hitachi AT300 derived ones. Just wondering, will this cause problems in the future as they're (The Flirt) a unique fleet as opposed to the AT300 which will be common?

I believe that Stadler FLIRT's were much cheaper as an overall package, with the size of premiums that AGA with the amount of disruption and changes they are going to make, going down that route was a risk too far I'd have assumed.

Does anyone know what happened to the so called "Alstom" order that was going around for ages on here for Abellio? I'm curious if insiders know what happened to that?

 

[Disorientxpres]

The power pack is only on the GTW model, which is an articulated railcar. The FLIRTs are multiple units and don't come with its own power pack pod.

The bimode version has a power pod that is mounted on two bogies.

 

[LAX54]

Has there been any mention of improvements to 1st class and also onboard catering?

What's the chances they will be deemed 'commuter' trains and devoid of on-board catering ?

 

[332 > 444]

The power pack is only on the GTW model, which is an articulated railcar. The FLIRTs are multiple units and don't come with its own power pack pod.

Yes they do, check out the FLIRT DMU units in Estonia have the powerpack too.

 

[F Great Eastern]

having been on a lot of Stadler trains throughout Europe, I can tell you that the FLIRT is not a proper intercity train, it's an average commuter train and short distance regional unit and Stadler don't really have any great experience in building intercity trains of the standards of what else was on offer.

It's a very cheap option for an Intercity train, if you can even call it that and will represent a downgrade on what is already there in my belief. The fact they are going to use the same train on regional services as Intercity tells you all you need to know.

They really cut the corners here and when the carriages arrive the people of East Anglia will never forgive them for it, it's a terrible low budget choice, I can see the merits of ordering it for rural services, but a flagship intercity? Come on.

Be best for everyone they canceled the airport trains (complete waste of money) and used that money to actually order a proper intercity train and retain the 379s which are plenty good enough. But they won't, since they crave the headline grabbing full fleet replacement, even if that means we have to suffer third rate trains on the flagship service.

 

[jon0844]

I imagine things will be different for LM bidders. They have a very modern fleet currently and they'll be additional 170s, 172s, 323s, 350s and 360s available for bidders to propose using. I imagine to win that franchise now you'll need a good idea for refurbishing 350s to a high standard.

As a lot of stock can be cascaded, there may be a few where the DfT will say that there won't be new trains. Plus of course you won't replace newer trains already in service either!

 

[J-2739]

Yes they do, check out the FLIRT DMU units in Estonia have the powerpack too.

Oh yeah, I've just seen a photo of it, my mistake. Still, I doubt the UK version will have such a dedicated power pack pod.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its quite possible that the delay included pivoting to cheaper stock. The 125mph Alstom design would have been a fairly small order of a completely new design and so may no longer have been economical after the drop in the Pound so they pivoted to 20 Stadler EMU and more Bombardier instead.

 

[F Great Eastern]

As a lot of stock can be cascaded, there may be a few where the DfT will say that there won't be new trains. Plus of course you won't replace newer trains already in service either!

We've gone from the stupid situation where we have too little stock to investing in stock that isn't really needed. It's a complete joke, and the DFT are going to have severe problems on their hands in the future dealing with all this huge amount of rolling stock.

There doesn't appear to be any proper plan, just throw as many new trains at it as we possibly can and figure out what we are left with later.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting to see AEA go against the norm and go for Stadler Flirt trains instead of the more conventional Hitachi AT300 derived ones. Just wondering, will this cause problems in the future as they're (The Flirt) a unique fleet as opposed to the AT300 which will be common?

Probably because the existing Hitachi is long distance services and a new design for regional/local services won't be in service by 2019 due to how much work Hitachi have already got on. To me it looks like the 3 car DEMUs are Sprinter replacement and the 4 car DEMUs are class 170 replacement and extra trains for new services. I imagine the Stadler product is the same that was offered to Northern bidders for the 'self-powered option' but Arriva rejected in favour of the CAF CIVITY.

 

[TheEdge]

having been on a lot of Stadler trains throughout Europe, I can tell you that the FLIRT is not a proper intercity train, it's an average commuter train and short distance regional unit and Stadler don't really have any great experience in building intercity trains of the standards of what else was on offer.

It's a very cheap option for an Intercity train, if you can even call it that and will represent a downgrade on what is already there in my belief. The fact they are going to use the same train on regional services as Intercity tells you all you need to know.

They really cut the corners here and when the carriages arrive the people of East Anglia will never forgive them for it, it's a terrible low budget choice, I can see the merits of ordering it for rural services, but a flagship intercity? Come on.

As has already been said FLIRTs are very easily customised. The notoriously well appointed and plush LEO Express units in the Czech Republic are FLIRT units.

Add that to the fact that the Railway Gazette report differentiates between the Intercity and Rural FLIRTS rather than just blankly saying FLIRT, complete with differing designs would imply that the two fleets will be differently equipped.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Its quite possible that the delay included pivoting to cheaper stock. The 125mph Alstom design would have been a fairly small order of a completely new design and so may no longer have been economical after the drop in the Pound so they pivoted to 20 Stadler EMU and more Bombardier instead.

They dropped the ball on the intercity stock, no doubt, the flagship stock is the one where they have cut the most corners, the easiest place to cut the corners was to dispose of the ridiculous orders that were not needed since the franchise has perfectly fine units now. But they decided to make cuts to the quality to focus on making sure they had enough quantity.

Lets replace all of the trains and give you cheap cut back intercity trains on the flagship route, since the alternative is ordering something better and not being able to replace nearly new trains therefore not looking so good from a PR point of view.

A complete shambles.
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Add that to the fact that the Railway Gazette report differentiates between the Intercity and Rural FLIRTS rather than just blankly saying FLIRT, complete with differing designs would imply that the two fleets will be differently equipped.

At the end of the day it's still not an intercity train though is it? It's a train designed for very different work that is going to be shoe-horned into becoming an intercity train because it's the cheap option for Abellio who are more interested in the PR than ordering something that is actually appropriate for the route.

Do you think that the passengers from Norwich are going to tolerate it? Because I can't see it. The fact is that trains that are designed for one purpose can be shoe-horned into another, but it's a half baked measure and a corner cutting and half hearted effort at it. These trains will have to last 20-30 YEARS, how about we get it right first time?

That's before you even think of the lunacy of kicking out the 379s, which is a complete waste of money and not at all required and is just a vanity exercise of ordering rolling stock for ordering rolling stocks sake. Considering some of the operators who have been held to ransom by the DFT who have be prevented from replacing far more antiqued rolling stock, it makes the mockery of the whole system.

As I said, I'd like to see the plans for what happens to all this displaced rolling stock that is going to lie around, the ROSCOS are certainly going to find a way to make money by putting the prices up for the stock that people actually want. There's going to have to be some mega cascades soon across the country, and a huge amount of stock is going to have to be withdrawn or sit idle over the next 4 years, there is clearly no plan.

 

[northwichcat]

There doesn't appear to be any proper plan, just throw as many new trains at it as we possibly can and figure out what we are left with later.

But that's their solution to criticism that they micromanage franchises - get rid of the plan and let operators do what they want.

I still don't think we'll be overloaded with diesel/self-powered trains but there were already plenty of options for Anglia bidders taking on newer/more electric trains without resorting to new local/regional EMUs.

 

[ainsworth74]

How do we know that the FLIRTs are going to be terrible before the design is, quite probably, not even finalised?!

 

[TheEdge]

At the end of the day it's still not an intercity train though is it? It's a train designed for very different work that is going to be shoe-horned into becoming an intercity train because Abellio are more interested in the PR than ordering something that is actually appropriate for the route.

Do you think that the passengers from Norwich are going to tolerate it? Because I can't see it.

Again, I refer to LEO Express, 3 hours, 100mph (FLIRTs are capable of 200kmph so 120mph) and a good 200m. They clearly can do Intercity work. They are used in Germany doing distances comparable to the GEML. Its not like they are being planned for use on London to Scotland, the GEML isn't really that long, its only 115 miles with a 100mph speed. It doesn't need something like a 390.

Honestly I don't think the Norwich passengers will give a toss. They will get brand proven stock that will be better outfitted than the Mk3s and hopefully and damn sight more reliable than the Mk3 sets.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But that's their solution to criticism that they micromanage franchises - get rid of the plan and let operators do what they want.

Well with all this new stock I have serious questions how they are going to make it all pay. I think we all agree what was going on before was too restricted but this is actually crazy and bad for the industry, there has to be some control, it was too tight before but now it's like the DFT have decided to turn the other way and just say yes sir, whatever you say, sir three bags full sir.

still don't think we'll be overloaded with diesel/self-powered trains but there were already plenty of options for Anglia bidders taking on newer/more electric trains without resorting to new local/regional EMUs.

It's ridiculous and screams of headline grabbing for Abellio, the worst thing is they're not even ordering proper rolling stock for intercity services, it's a half baked solution, they've gone for quantity over quality and that is something that I am quite frankly very disappointed. Everyone knew that the franchise needed some new suburban units, a few new regionals and an intercity fleet.

What it didn't need is to replace 84 carriages of perfectly good 360 EMU's which are little over 10 years old or replace 120 carriages of 379s which were ordered especially for the Stansted Express route which are 5 years old.

There also does not need to be replacements for the Turbostars, cascade them out to other services to replace 153s and 156s and then a small number of trains to backfill the Turbostars, that's all the franchise needs, nothing more nothing less. It's a joke.

Instead we're ordering far more EMU's than we need, far more rural units that we don't actually need and to top it all off we're then ordering a cheap intercity train, because there is no money left to order something that is designed for the job because we wasted far too much money on ordering stuff we don't actually need.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

[transmanche]

At the end of the day it's still not an intercity train though is it? It's a train designed for very different work that is going to be shoe-horned into becoming an intercity train because it's the cheap option for Abellio who are more interested in the PR than ordering something that is actually appropriate for the route.

What makes you think it's not an inter-city train?

Most rolling stock manufacturers have modular design platforms that can be customised for different types of work. Different variants of the Desiro operate stopping trains on GWR, regional express services for TPE and inter-city work for SWT.

 

[Class 170101]

I was looking to see how many booked 12 car 317/321/360/379 workings there are each peak to see how 22 longer 10 car trains compares to now and only just noticed that they don't put the little "12" box in passenger timetables anymore.

317 - no 12 car trains
321/360/379 - 12 car operation in the peaks.

I think only FGE put the 12 box on passenger timetables. They were called 12 coach Super Trains as I recall.

 

[grumblingalong]

It's ridiculous and screams of headline grabbing for Abellio

Let me get this straight, a massive investment is made to change one of the oldest fleets in the country to the newest, a total step change and far beyond anything we have ever seen in Anglia.

And yet you're still not happy?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Again, I refer to LEO Express, 3 hours, 100mph (FLIRTs are capable of 200kmph so 120mph) and a good 200m. They clearly can do Intercity work. They are used in Germany doing distances comparable to the GEML. Its not like they are being planned for use on London to Scotland, the GEML isn't really that long, its only 115 miles with a 100mph speed. It doesn't need something like a 390.

I have been on those trains. They are not proper Intercity trains.

Honestly I don't think the Norwich passengers will give a toss. They will get brand proven stock that will be better outfitted than the Mk3s and hopefully and damn sight more reliable than the Mk3 sets.

You don't know the Norwich passengers very well then. Many used to refuse to even board any kind of EMUs.

The sheer thought of units replacing Intercity Stock years ago when a much better unit, the 444 was touted let to outcry. They will not accept downgrading of the service no matter what. I cannot see them being happy with this, my experience with the Flirt in Europe and I've actually been on the units you suggest, is that they are an excellent commuter or rural train. However their intercity configuration is not a proper intercity configuration and is more of a cheap intercity and high end commuter unit.

The fact is they were ordered because they were cheaper than what others proposed and that is because they are a half way house between a commuter and a proper intercity unit that was proposed by other bidders and rolling stock manufacturers.

 

[Mikey C]

having been on a lot of Stadler trains throughout Europe, I can tell you that the FLIRT is not a proper intercity train, it's an average commuter train and short distance regional unit and Stadler don't really have any great experience in building intercity trains of the standards of what else was on offer.

It's a very cheap option for an Intercity train, if you can even call it that and will represent a downgrade on what is already there in my belief. The fact they are going to use the same train on regional services as Intercity tells you all you need to know.

They really cut the corners here and when the carriages arrive the people of East Anglia will never forgive them for it, it's a terrible low budget choice, I can see the merits of ordering it for rural services, but a flagship intercity? Come on.

Be best for everyone they canceled the airport trains (complete waste of money) and used that money to actually order a proper intercity train and retain the 379s which are plenty good enough. But they won't, since they crave the headline grabbing full fleet replacement, even if that means we have to suffer third rate trains on the flagship service.

How do you know the same train will be used on intercity and rural services? Why would they choose something inferior to the commuter Aventras for their flagship service?

 

[TheEdge]

There also does not need to be replacements for the Turbostars, cascade them out to other services to replace 153s and 156s and then a small number of trains to backfill the Turbostars, that's all the franchise needs, nothing more nothing less. It's a joke.

Instead we're ordering far more EMU's than we need, far more rural units that we don't actually need...

Have you looked at the rural fleet recently? One unit is currently quite literally in pieces for the foreseeable future. Others have re-occurring faults. The fleet is so stretched there are two locomotive hauled sets used on local trains. There are already arguably too many services for the fleet to operate, with new services and extended Cambridge services there needed to be much more than a like for like order.

Just because we are north of Manningtree doesn't mean we don't deserve some investment.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Let me get this straight, a massive investment is made to change one of the oldest fleets in the country to the newest, a total step change and far beyond anything we have ever seen in Anglia.

And yet you're still not happy?

I totally support clearing out the 153/156/317/321 fleets. No complaints there Abellio have my full support in changing one of the oldest fleets in the country, remove all the old stock and replace it with good quality new stock.

The problem is that they decided they'd replace all the almost new and young stock at the same time which doesn't need replacing and have gone for quantity of rolling stock over quality and replacing stock that was perfectly good.

 

[Clarence Yard]

How do we know that the FLIRTs are going to be terrible before the design is, quite probably, not even finalised?!

Exactly! Personally, I'm very glad the Flirt is coming. The reasonably priced package seems very adaptable and you can spec. the interior from what I would call basic to plush. The diesel power pack car (which punters can walk through) on the bi modes is a great idea and the engines are very easy to get at.

Of course, being a GN man, I like the idea of articulation to cut down bogie maintenance costs (I was too young to work on the quad arts but plenty of my colleagues did!) and it is no secret that other bidders were also seriously looking at the Stadler solution.

I would wager a fair amount that in future this product range won't be confined to East Anglia.

 

[northwichcat]

I have been on those trains. They are not proper Intercity trains.

Well I've been on CAF trains in Italy which have been horrible and had the wrong type of interior for the type of service they were running and I've been on CAF trains in Spain which in my opinion are world class. So what are the Northern or TPE CAF trains going to be like? I don't know as they haven't been built yet, anymore than you know what the Stadler Anglia trains will be like.

You don't know the Norwich passengers very well then. Many used to refuse to even board any kind of EMUs.

Oh well if they decide not to travel then it means you have a greater choice of where you sit on the train. Surely good news for you - unless when you say 'Norwich passengers' you're actually referring to yourself.

 

[F Great Eastern]

How do you know the same train will be used on intercity and rural services? Why would they choose something inferior to the commuter Aventras for their flagship service?

Well until last week every said they were ordering Alstom, so try and figure out why that might have changed. They were hardly going to tear up the whole bid were they at that late stage?

What I assume happened as that they re-costed the bid and since Stadler we already in the bid anyway they asked them to price more units up at a different spec, and Abellio took that option rather than allowing the bid to collapse.

 

[TheEdge]

The problem is that they decided they'd replace all the almost new and young stock at the same time which doesn't need replacing and have gone for quantity of rolling stock over quality and replacing stock that was perfectly good.

So you would rather have less stock than more?

Its probably also been done for the sake of fleet commonality. It will be far easier and more efficient for Crown Point if they only need to hold parts and tools for fixing FLIRT units rather than need IC unit, 170 and rural unit parts.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Have you looked at the rural fleet recently? One unit is currently quite literally in pieces for the foreseeable future. Others have re-occurring faults. The fleet is so stretched there are two locomotive hauled sets used on local trains. There are already arguably too many services for the fleet to operate, with new services and extended Cambridge services there needed to be much more than a like for like order.

Just because we are north of Manningtree doesn't mean we don't deserve some investment.

Did you read my post? I'm all far withdrawing the 153/156 fleet, cascading 170s to those services and then ordering new built units to fill in for the remainder. Nobody is saying the rural fleet does not need investment, but I'm sorry but if you really are saying the 170s are too old that is a ridicolous statement and there are plenty of other TOCs who would love to have such a problem with far far older fleets.

 

[BuryBlue]

Well until last week every said they were ordering Alstom, so try and figure out why that might have changed. They were hardly going to tear up the whole bid were they at that late stage?

What I assume happened as that they re-costed the bid and since Stadler we already in the bid anyway they asked them to price more units up at a different spec, and Abellio took that option rather than allowing the bid to collapse.

You have tunnel vision.

The DfT are clearly using this franchise opportunity to modernise fleets across the country; the cascaded 360s and other designs can allow the oldest stock elsewhere to be scrapped. There's still 319s, 153s, Pacers knocking around years ago. And also signalling to the Anglia region that after years it finally deserves some investment; I believe we're one of only 2 regions in the UK which net contributes to the economy.

Furthermore the bi-mode stock on some lines will be used in future as EMUs when those lines are electrified; in the case of IPS-CBG for example it will later almost certainly be transferred to an East-West rail operator. What you're seeing is a rare case of future proofing.

The bi modes are also to give the Anglia fleet flexibility in terms of services (branch-London services not having to run under the wires) and to give the regional routes a fleet of an appropriate size.