GC vs NXEC

[Metroland]

Well it's obviously trying to smoke GC out. And if GC do disappear, I suspect the prices will go right back up. This is happening in the airline industry now, they are waiting for half the other companies to go bust due to high fuel prices, before they put the prices up to reflect the real cost, purposely keeping them low and keeping the screws down until the rival runs out of air.

Well I'm so glad York passengers are getting £30 off on a couple of trains, and every household in the land is paying an extra £150 a year for the privilege. Wonderful economics.

You say the real world, but we have had cheap pre-book tickets primarily because of airline competition which is a far greater threat to ECML operators than GC. You only have to look how many passengers have been lost from Scotland since the mid-1990s.

 

[BlueGrey]

Yorkie,

You wrote I hope you refused to show your ticket.

I was just suggesting that refusing to show your ticket is probally not brilliant advice and I was concerned it could potentially get people into trouble. I simply suggested showing your ticket and then complaining afterwards to the TOC if you thought you had been challenged unjustly.

I most certainly do not support underhand tactics and I thought I made it clear in my post I thought we should all be behind Great Central. I do however have sympathy for frontline staff in other TOCS who may have suffered inconvenience and hassle because of Grand Central's recent troubles.

 

[Tin Miner]

Well I'm so glad York passengers are getting £30 off on a couple of trains, and every household in the land is paying an extra £150 a year for the privilege. Wonderful economics.

You say the real world, but we have had cheap pre-book tickets primarily because of airline competition which is a far greater threat to ECML operators than GC. You only have to look how many passengers have been lost from Scotland since the mid-1990s.

Meanwhile back in the real world... isn't it crowded ...

I have a car. It costs 23p per mile to use, if I can't do it cheaper by train when I want to travel...and just turning up and travelling, I either drive, or don't make the journey. Thanks to the barmy attitude of the government to the externalisation of motoring costs, 23p per mile is all I pay. It's probably too little, but hey ho....perhaps I shopuld have to book my car in advance.

I actually feel that every household in the land paying £150 a year to make my ticket form York to London affordable is money well spent.

What I really like about GC is the way they've upset the railway establishment. It's highly entertaining.

 

[Metroland]

Actually I don't mind the £150 spent either...Except some people do, and that's the problem.

 

[Max]

Actually I don't mind the £150 spent either...Except some people do, and that's the problem.

They wouldn't if they realised that the tax could be spent to reduce rail travel far below the cost of motoring! :roll:

 

[Tin Miner]

Actually I don't mind the £150 spent either...Except some people do, and that's the problem.

Personally I'd far rather it was spent this way than on pointless wars, or on subsidising road building, ... I think it's a small price to pay to keep idiots on the trains rather than behind the wheel of their cars.

I'm very Zen about the stupid using the railways.... It keeps them off the roads.

For those who do object to their taxes keeping down the cost of rail travel, they might take a moment to consider the kind of world that will be left for their children if the environment is scrificed in order to keep taxes low... as is happening at the moment.

 

[Metroland]

I think it has to be the greatest travesty of justice that when you look at the maps of the railways and trams in 1900, they went everywhere. That system of transport was cheap, low impact and for the use of everyone. It provided jobs for life, in some cases cheap housing.

Incredibly short sighted it was swept away.

People complain that (especially young people) won't take minimum wage jobs, but with the average cost of motoring £4400 per year for a small car, £6000 for a medium sized one and £11000 for a large one (according to the AA), how many people on less than £20k can afford to AND have to use a car to get about? How many people on less than £30k afford a house and car?

Then went you plug in rising fuel costs, congestion (most cities are slower than the horse and cart) and the environmental argument, it really does seem short sighted.

Those are the reasons I'm pro rail.

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie,

You wrote I hope you refused to show your ticket.

Yes, as he was changing from TPE to GC accross platform 11 to 10 - that is literally out of one train and onto another. I maintain that advice, and I would certainly refuse to show any ticket and and ask for their name.

I am extremely disappointed you feel it is acceptable for a member of NXEC staff to loiter with intent to harrass GC passengers boarding their trains and that passengers should agree to be harrassed and not object. Of course passengers have every right to object at such treatment.

I was just suggesting that refusing to show your ticket is probally not brilliant advice and I was concerned it could potentially get people into trouble. I simply suggested showing your ticket and then complaining afterwards to the TOC if you thought you had been challenged unjustly.

I disagree. The staff member is hardly going to be told off by NXEC's management is he?!

I most certainly do not support underhand tactics and I thought I made it clear in my post I thought we should all be behind Great Central. I do however have sympathy for frontline staff in other TOCS who may have suffered inconvenience and hassle because of Grand Central's recent troubles.

If you do not support such tactics why do you suggest we go along with them?

And just because they may have suffered some "inconvenience" because of GC, what gives them the right to harrass GC's customers?

Upyourjunction (a member of NXEC staff) denied that the incident existed claiming that NXEC's staff would not do such a thing! At least he isn't condoning it I suppose.

 

[BlueGrey]

Yes, as he was changing from TPE to GC accross platform 11 to 10 - that is literally out of one train and onto another. I maintain that advice, and I would certainly refuse to show any ticket and and ask for their name.

I am extremely disappointed you feel it is acceptable for a member of NXEC staff to loiter with intent to harrass GC passengers boarding their trains and that passengers should agree to be harrassed and not object. Of course passengers have every right to object at such treatment.

I disagree. The staff member is hardly going to be told off by NXEC's management is he?!

If you do not support such tactics why do you suggest we go along with them?

And just because they may have suffered some "inconvenience" because of GC, what gives them the right to harrass GC's customers?

Upyourjunction (a member of NXEC staff) denied that the incident existed claiming that NXEC's staff would not do such a thing! At least he isn't condoning it I suppose.

Sorry if this reply looks messy, I am new to the forum. I realise you were suggesting that in this instance the gentlemen concerned should refuse to show his ticket however I was concerned that this could be misconstrued by other forum members as more general advice to ignore ticket checks which they felt were unjust. Even in the instance you are talking about I would suggest the best course of advice would have been to show the ticket to the NXEC staff. If your intention was to buy on board state politely that was your intention as per GC advertising. I would advocate remaining calm even if you felt their actions were provacative. I would hope NXEC would take notice of your complaint but if they failed to do so you could complain to GC and presumably (you may know more about this than me) the ORR or suchlike if you were concerned at the NXEC actions. I have 2 concerns about arguing with rail staff.

1, The vast majority are doing their job correctly and professionally and do not need the hassle of somebody potentially misconstruing their actions (though I do agree in the case stated it sounds like the NXEC staff were in the wrong)

2, Even if the NXEC staff were in the wrong (without getting into railway byelaws that I do not know thoroughly) they are in a position of authority and especially at a station like York able to call the BTP quickly. If the BTP officer who attends then decides the staff are in the right (which is a possibility) a whole lot of unecessary and potentially serious hassle may arise.

In short I do not condone NXEC's actions but it is better to rise above them and deal with them through the official channels. Also again I wish to make it very clear that I would like to see GC suceed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On the subject of ticket barriers and staff, take this extract from the Railway Byelaws (2006) which is on the DfT website:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

This clearly doesn't cover the internet, or any pages from it, regardless of author.

I do not know of a poster or notice at stations where GC stop that says you can board the train without a ticket, but if there is then fine.

and for clarity:

25. Interpretation

(1) Definitions

In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:

“authorised person” means:

(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:

(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or

(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

Therefore failing to show a ticket to a railway employee (regardless of TOC/OAO) or not having one when boarding a train is an offence, except where noted.

So that kills one arguement atleast.

 

[Spaceflower]

So have people been slagging NXEC off for doing their job properly?

 

[Metroland]

I promised myself I wouldn't post on this subject again, but to summarise.

FACT:

NXEC's job is to make as much profit as it can for its' shareholders and pay government premiums. Part of that is re-enforcing revenue collection at its' stations where all operators work.

All private companies must endeavour to make money for it's investors to get more investment. That is the way a capitalist society works, if you don't like it vote for an alternative or move to Cuba. NXEC are not unusual and are doing their job as a private business.

FACT:

Studies done by numerous consultants, the Department of transport, the ORR prove that GC is extracting (at least some) revenue from NXEC. Additional business is probably being generated, but whether GC can run purely based on its' own revenue without an ORCATS stream is debatable and indeterminate - at least at this stage.

FACT:

Railway By-laws mean you must show any ticket when asked to by an official. It is not your right to pass through a barrier.

FACT:

The people that are doing this (and in my opinion setting a bad example for others) are not doing it on official guidance or are entitled to or qualified to make those decisions. They are not railway or railway agency officials and this is an internal matter for the industry to decide not them.

 

[87015]

Marylebone barrier is quite happy to let passengers "going for the WSMR" through no hassle...

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

'Takes GC uniform off and puts on civies'

All very well and good, but as David said, he was the only passenger who got off the TPE and onto the GC. If he had boarded an XC would he have been asked to show his ticket?
Having been on the recieving end of NXEC staff at York at work (in the past, they are better now), I will say No, they wouldnt have asked to see the ticket if David had boarded an XC rather than GC.
It's a case of David vs Goliath, and come on, GC run (or try to!) 3 services each way per day, compared to NXEC's how many? There's no way GC can compete on a level playing field with NXEC given the wide gap in number of services.
If GC were trying to run a similar number of services then yes, I could accept NXEC's intransigence towards GC, but as GC dont run anywhere near the same number of trains, then they are just being anti-competition and bullies.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

NEXC job is to make as much profit as it can for its' shareholders and pay government premiums.

. . . and they ain't doing exceptionally well for those shareholders. They've been paying LESS than 4% p.a. in dividends - that's 2.7% in May and about 1.2% in October. The May dividend only just compensates for the loss in share value over the last few weeks, a value which has DROPPED by 30% in the past year!

But none of the other TOCs I follow do better. Not good investments IMO.

 

[Metroland]

Nearly all transport shares are doing badly at the moment due to high fuel costs, although Stagecoach have gained.

Nevertheless I don't see why it is relevant to this discussion.

NXEC competition with GC is an internal matter to be decided through official bodies, not trial by trainspotters.

I don't think it's an especially good idea for GC to be posting on here saying NXEC are 'bullies' either frankly. I remind the website operators they are responsible for comments made on this forum.

 

[yorkie]

NXEC competition with GC is an internal matter to be decided through official bodies, not trial by trainspotters.

Then why are you discussing it? As you are not an official body, are you a "trainspotter" or is there a third 'category' that you have not mentioned?

I don't think it's an especially good idea for GC to be posting on here saying NXEC are 'bullies' either frankly. I remind the website operators they are responsible for comments made on this forum.

I can't see anything wrong with any of the posts by GC staff. On the contrary, a member of NXEC staff has made derogatory comments to customers, yet you ignore that. Interesting.

As for website "operators" being "responsible" for comments made on this forum, that is not a debate for here and now, but the way you say it is not really true. If an organisation makes a complaint - and we fail to act - then we can be held responsible. Until such a complaint is made we do not really have anything to worry about legally.

 

[upyourjunction]

I can't see anything wrong with any of the posts by GC staff. On the contrary, a member of NXEC staff has made derogatory comments to customers, yet you ignore that. Interesting.

Please enlighten us of the derogatory comments

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

'Takes GC uniform off and puts on civies'

Read the above. It is not 'GC staff saying' anything... it is my personal opinion, one that has been formed out of experience.

 

[yorkie]

Therefore failing to show a ticket to a railway employee (regardless of TOC/OAO) or not having one when boarding a train is an offence, except where noted.

So that kills one arguement atleast.

Oh dear. We're going round in circles. Nick W already addressed this point. IT IS NOT AN OFFENCE TO BOARD A TRAIN WITHOUT A TICKET IF TICKETS ARE SOLD ON BOARD. TICKETS ARE AVAILABLE ON BOARD GRAND CENTRAL.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Please enlighten us of the derogatory comments

You've accused people who buy on board GC as being "fare evaders" and you have accused people who have been targeted for ticket checks crossing platforms onto GC as liars!

 

[Metroland]

Then why are you discussing it? As you are not an official body, are you a "trainspotter" or is there a third 'category' that you have not mentioned?

I can't see anything wrong with any of the posts by GC staff. On the contrary, a member of NXEC staff has made derogatory comments to customers, yet you ignore that. Interesting.

As for website "operators" being "responsible" for comments made on this forum, that is not a debate for here and now, but the way you say it is not really true. If an organisation makes a complaint - and we fail to act - then we can be held responsible. Until such a complaint is made we do not really have anything to worry about legally.

I'm discussing it because you are highly irresponsible, belligerent and cannot take a hint.

Can you see it is not for you to decide these things? You the hell appointed you to walk the ticket barriers and encourage other people to. I'm merely pointing out that nowhere says this is official policy, that is a fact whether you like it or not. The comments about different companies and individuals are mostly speculative. This is not a court of law, you are going land yourself in very hot water.

 

[yorkie]

I promised myself I wouldn't post on this subject again, but to summarise.

FACT:

NXEC's job is to make as much profit as it can for its' shareholders and pay government premiums. Part of that is re-enforcing revenue collection at its' stations where all operators work.

FACT:

NXEC have to do this within the rules, that means they have to let GC's passengers through and pay on the train if they wish.

All private companies must endeavour to make money for it's investors to get more investment. That is the way a capitalist society works, if you don't like it vote for an alternative or move to Cuba. NXEC are not unusual and are doing their job as a private business.

FACT:
All private companies have to obey the law! If you do not like it, move to Cuba! GC are not unusual and are doing their job as a private business.

FACT:

Studies done by numerous consultants, the Department of transport, the ORR prove that GC is extracting (at least some) revenue from NXEC. Additional business is probably being generated, but whether GC can run purely based on its' own revenue without an ORCATS stream is debatable and indeterminate - at least at this stage.

FACT:

You should leave the ORR to it instead of meddling. I believe you call people who disagree with the ORR "trainspotters", an unfortunate use of the term, I don't know why you seem to be calling yourself that, but it's your choice.

The ORR have fulfilled their obligations by allowing GC to run. Leave it to them.

FACT:

Railway By-laws mean you must show any ticket when asked to by an official. It is not your right to pass through a barrier.

FACT:
Look up the definition of 'ticket'. This has already been posted by Nick W and allows for buying on board!

FACT:

The people that are doing this (and in my opinion setting a bad example for others) are not doing it on official guidance or are entitled to or qualified to make those decisions. They are not railway or railway agency officials and this is an internal matter for the industry to decide not them.

If it is an internal matter and not for others to discuss, why are you discussing it?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm discussing it because you are highly irresponsible, belligerent and cannot take a hint.

Please withdraw that libellous comment.

Can you see it is not for you to decide these things?

Indeed it is not for me to decide such things. I have decided nothing.

You the hell appointed you to walk the ticket barriers and encourage other people to.

What do you mean by "walk the ticket barriers"? As I have said before, all you have to do is tell them you are buying on board GC, simple!

I'm merely pointing out that nowhere says this is official policy,

What is the official policy then? you have provided no evidence. I have!

that is a fact whether you like it or not. The comments about different companies and individuals are mostly speculative. This is not a court of law, you are going land yourself in very hot water.

Am I? how exactly? I hardly think buying on board GC is going to land me in "hot water".

 

[Metroland]

You are an idiot

A world class loon and total idiot, you should not even be in charge of running a bath let alone a website.

For the very last time for the hard of understanding:

UNTIL there are notices or NXEC staff allow passengers to walk through barriers without tickets as far as you are concerned you show your ticket. And really that's all there is to it.

It doesn't matter a flip what you or NickW says, you are not entitled to make any other decision, understand?

 

[yorkie]

Sadly when some people lose an argument they resort to name-calling.

You are going round in circles and I am not continuing this discussion.

Starting from last Monday I am, from now on, purchasing on board GC for every trip that I can, just to prove a point (the point being: GC deserve the revenue, they encourage people to do it, and I want to support them, and it is convenient to do so because buying online is risky if the train may not run).

That's all I am saying on the matter

 

[Metroland]

Well when the person spots in the local papers that Yorkie has been arrested far fare evasion, we'll no doubt all have a good laugh. Then you can prove it in a real court just how clever you are.

 

[upyourjunction]

Oh dear. We're going round in circles. Nick W already addressed this point. IT IS NOT AN OFFENCE TO BOARD A TRAIN WITHOUT A TICKET IF TICKETS ARE SOLD ON BOARD. TICKETS ARE AVAILABLE ON BOARD GRAND CENTRAL.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You've accused people who buy on board GC as being "fare evaders" and you have accused people who have been targeted for ticket checks crossing platforms onto GC as liars!

No I said refusing to show a valid ticket was fare evasion, something that hundreds are prosecuted for every year ending up with a criminal record!

For the record I didn't call anyone a liar! Just because you don't believe an event that a person recounts doesn't mean your calling them a liar!

When having a conversation with somebody do you always nod your head and take everything they said in, can you never challenge them, without them saying "are you calling me a liar?"

 

[Max]

For the record I didn't call anyone a liar! Just because you don't believe an event that a person recounts doesn't mean your calling them a liar!

You certainly implied it.

UNTIL there are notices or NXEC staff allow passengers to walk through barriers without tickets as far as you are concerned you show your ticket. And really that's all there is to it.

It doesn't matter a flip what you or NickW says, you are not entitled to make any other decision, understand?

How are you in any more of a position than we are? You don't work for National Express and you certainly aren't part of National Express management so I hardly see how you have any right to make any 'decision'.

Furthermore, the rules state that you cannot be ticketless unless...

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

OK, so it is well publicised that you can purchase on the train. At King's Cross it is adverstised on departure boards for example. Maybe this should be employed at York? The definition of an authorised person is also intereting...

(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:

(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or

(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway

Surely it could be argued that the Grand Central website, which states that tickets may be purchased onboard, is an agent of an operator? And therefore it could be said that an 'authorised person' has allowed passengers to travel without a ticket.

Please don't flame me for this. Nobody deserves namecalling simply because they're making a fair and valid point.

 

[Metroland]

You certainly implied it.

How are you in any more of a position than we are? You don't work for National Express and you certainly aren't part of National Express management so I hardly see how you have any right to make any 'decision'.

Furthermore, the rules state that you cannot be ticketless unless...
.

Dear, dear, dear!

Of course I'm not in any position! That's the whole point, those that are, on the ticket barriers enforce the rules set by their managers. There's no debate as far as I'm concerned, I just don't think it's very responsible for anyone else to interprete the rules.

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, I could be wrong, but I'm not in any definite position to say - but then nor is anyone else here!

Anyone that walks through ticket barriers without a valid ticket or permission from the person on the barrier risks being prosecuted unless there is a clear notice near the barriers. We know that for fact from the railway by-laws. And it's no good taking it out on NXEC staff who have been told to check all tickets by their managers. Whether that's right or wrong is not for us to decide in terms of walking through barriers or attempting to.

The solution would of course for GC to help man barriers too, but that costs money, probably more than the extra 10% revenue.

 

[BlueGrey]

This argument appears to have become quite muddled. . If you were challenged by NXEC staff at York for your ticket I think so long as you were polite and not provacative and explained you wished to purchase your ticket on board the GC train as per their advertising (I have never looked at this advertising I am just taking forum members word for this) you would have acted perfectly reasonably and they would then not really have a right to stop you. Also if it is legal to buy tickets on Great Central services I cannot imagine the BTP taking action against you. My argument all along is that people should simply remain civil and co-operative with rail staff even if they are acting provactively.

 

[Max]

While I am concerned that 2 people who I take to be in a position of authority on this site Max and Yorkie (its says moderator next to their name) appear to potentially be suggesting people (I'm just saying your comments could be interpreted this way guys not that you neccesarily mean it) could in certain circumstances ignore or refuse to show tickets to railway staff...

This is completely untrue - in fact, if you look at my earlier posts I specifically stated that passing through ticket barriers without showing a ticket or explaining the GC situation is very wrong! I'm just stating that getting through the barriers without tickets wouldn't neccessarily be against the rules. I certainly don't condone fare evasion or abuse towards railway staff.

But while I'm on this point, just because I (or indeed anybody here) am a member of staff on this site, doesn't mean I am not entitled to my views. They're not the views of the site, they're my own personal views (and this is the case for all of us). Additionally, I respect the views of others - but I don't neccessarily agree with them.