GC vs NXEC

[Metroland]

I also don't fully agree with Metroland. If you were challenged by NXEC staff at York for your ticket I think so long as you were polite and not provacative and explained you wished to purchase your ticket on board the GC train as per their advertising

Okay, so I want a free trip to London. I go to York, go to the ticket barrier, say I'm going on GC, then get on a NXEC train all the way to London, hiding in the loos there or saying I got on earlier.

So convince me why, as a matter of revenue protection on their trains, why they should believe anyone that says they are going to get a GC ticket? And why as a ticket inspector, should you believe anyone that says they will?

I don't see that as picking on GC, I see that as enforcing your own revenue protection.

 

[Max]

But (as upyourjunction clearly pointed out) there are no barrier checks at York! We're talking about NXEC who are simply picking on GC passengers for no good reason. Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I believe to be the case.

 

[Metroland]

But if there was! And do we really have any evidence they are picking on them apart from heresay?

And no, that doesn't mean I'm calling anybody a liar, that means should we really jump to any conclusions based on what has happened on a couple of occasions.

There are practical reasons for these things, and ticket inspectors get to know the tricks.

For example, NXEC would know, if GC are selling tickets on board, some people could get on, hide in the loos and get off - IF they avoided a check at Kings Cross. So they might want to make another check.

And I'm waiting for the person to say - how does that affect NXEC?

Well think about it.

 

[upyourjunction]

But if there was! And do we really have any evidence they are picking on them apart from heresay?

My point exactly! NEXEC staff as I have said do not care whether you are traveling on a NEXEC, Virgin, Northern,TPE or GC !
Staff on the ground are unconcerned how much profit NEX make because at the end of the day if it all goes pear shaped for NEX they'll hand it back to to Government like GNER & another bus company will come in with a new image new uniforms and off we'll go again!
The sad thing about GC is if they don't succeed Their staff will be out of work, A thing that no fellow Railway worker or Union member would want!

 

[BlueGrey]

This is completely untrue - in fact, if you look at my earlier posts I specifically stated that passing through ticket barriers without showing a ticket or explaining the GC situation is very wrong! I'm just stating that getting through the barriers without tickets wouldn't neccessarily be against the rules. I certainly don't condone fare evasion or abuse towards railway staff.

But while I'm on this point, just because I (or indeed anybody here) am a member of staff on this site, doesn't mean I am not entitled to my views. They're not the views of the site, they're my own personal views (and this is the case for all of us). Additionally, I respect the views of others - but I don't neccessarily agree with them.

I'm sorry Max. I missed that post. My point about you being an administrator is not that you shouldn't offer your views but its just that with some people your views may carry more weight than say mine or Metroland's. Also like I said I was just concerned that your views may be misconstrued in ways you didn't necessarillary mean. I would hate to see anybody get in trouble.

 

[Metroland]

My point exactly! NEXEC staff as I have said do not care whether you are traveling on a NEXEC, Virgin, Northern,TPE or GC !
Staff on the ground are unconcerned how much profit NEX make because at the end of the day if it all goes pear shaped for NEX they'll hand it back to to Government like GNER & another bus company will come in with a new image new uniforms and off we'll go again!
The sad thing about GC is if they don't succeed Their staff will be out of work, A thing that no fellow Railway worker or Union member would want!

Well let’s leave them to the naïve beliefs, where everything in the world is as it is in text books or can be put on a spreadsheet.

I said the education system leaves a lot to be desired…

 

[BlueGrey]

Okay, so I want a free trip to London. I go to York, go to the ticket barrier, say I'm going on GC, then get on a NXEC train all the way to London, hiding in the loos there or saying I got on earlier.

So convince me why, as a matter of revenue protection on their trains, why they should believe anyone that says they are going to get a GC ticket? And why as a ticket inspector, should you believe anyone that says they will?

I don't see that as picking on GC, I see that as enforcing your own revenue protection.

That is a very good point and I am fully aware how many people do attempt to travel fraudulently on the railways. Unfortunately if Great Central have indeed made it legal (I have no idea about the legality or otherwise) or advertised that it is acceptable to buy tickets on board I don't see that NXEC staff would have much choice other than to let the passenger through.

 

[Donny Dave]

A few more comments from me ....

Firstly, GC crews stand by the doors while the train is at a station to greet the passengers, so they will know how many people are on board and can sell tickets if needed. I've not seen or heard of anyone getting a free journey (except when autherised) out of GC yet.

NXEC staff at York (and to a lesser extent, Kings Cross) tend to hang around whichever platform the GC service is on so they can perform a headcount, and (very) occasionally stop a passenger. It's happened to me and someone else who has posted in this thread, and GC staff have confirmed it.

I know NXEC have to deliver on their promise to pay the DfT £1.4b, but they way they are going about it is wrong.

As I said in my previous post, it's all about competition. GNER (as it was until last November) left gaps in the market, which other companies are exploiting.

Example 1. Hull Trains started running and went via Selby. GNER re-routed the Hull Executive and added a stop at Selby.

Example 2. EMT have stated they are going to run a 2 hourly service between Lincoln and London. Since that has been announced, NXEC want to do the same.

Example 3. Hull Trains have announced they want to run services between Harrogate and London. NXEC have since announced the same.

If GNER/NXEC had been more proactive in the past, these gaps in the market would not exist, so there would be no companies competing with NXEC now. Seeing as there is competition now, NXEC should buckle down and start working in a professional manner, and not vent their corporate anger on the passenger.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'd be very interested to see how barriers could be introduced at York. The entrance I normally use (and will be doing so in a couple of hours time) is on completely the opposite side of the station to the ticket office - if this entrance were to be closed off, it would mean an extra 1/4 mile walk for people to get into the station, and a bridge built less than 5 years ago would be redundant.

Incidentally, just to throw another spanner in the works, the train I am going for this evening is not a Grand Central one, but a charter train, and the only place I can buy a ticket for it is on the train as even the ticket office doesn't sell them!

 

[BlueGrey]

As I believe people on the forum know members of Great Central staff is it possible to find out from them how this system of buying tickets on board works. Is it purely to allow you to buy a ticket if you join at an unstaffed station (or one where the booking office is closed) or is it indeed intended to allow you to join a train at somewhere like London or York and purchase your ticket onboard as opposed to the booking office provided. If it is the latter how are passengers who intend to purchase onboard suppose to pass through any barrier checks which may be operating?

 

[Meld]

No I said refusing to show a valid ticket was fare evasion, something that hundreds are prosecuted for every year ending up with a criminal record!

For the record I didn't call anyone a liar! Just because you don't believe an event that a person recounts doesn't mean your calling them a liar!

When having a conversation with somebody do you always nod your head and take everything they said in, can you never challenge them, without them saying "are you calling me a liar?"

So in simple terms the section of your quote highlighted

If you don't have a valid ticket you cant refuse to show what you haven't got, so there isn't any question of fare evasion

 

[Metroland]

Then you don't travel or buy one from the inspector, or go and buy one from the ticket office - practically.

No ordinary passenger would refuse, it's only an enthusiast who wants to interpret and web site and a by-law to support a train service with a certain livery that have an issue with it! Not saying they are wrong (although I can see practical problems with it) if you read carefully, nevertheless they'll have to prove in court if they refuse to buy one and why not. I'd like to see them try.

I certainly don't think they should encourage potentially young enthusiasts to get a criminal record, that would affect jobs prospects, foreign travel and lord knows what else to give a few extra quid to GC.

They can support GC by travelling with them in the first place.

 

[mealybar]

I dont want to get into the 'GC vs NXEC' debate, but I read this last night which may be of interest...

17. The growth in revenue comparing 2007/8 Period 13, with the same period in the previous year was:
Sunderland 139%
Hartlepool 497%
Eaglescliffe 735%
Northallerton 17%
Thirsk 129%
York 6%

18. Except in the case of York, and possibly Northallerton, this is far higher growth than can be explained by underlying market growth, fare changes and differences between Period 13 in 2007/8 and the preceding year. Clearly, Grand Central services are attracting new users to the stations we serve....

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22-Grand_Central_7sa_GC_cmnts.pdf

 

[Max]

If it is the latter how are passengers who intend to purchase onboard suppose to pass through any barrier checks which may be operating?

Don't think anybody has the right to barrier trains at Kings Cross except the TOCs themselves. So only GC could barrier their own trains. York is a different matter. Whether it is indeed lawful for them to barrier the station is debateable, as don't they simply manage the station on behalf of Network Rail? I would of thought permission would have ot be sought to barrier the station, and is done during special circumstances. For example, Hull was barriered last Saturday morning (day of the playoff final) to restrict numbers travelling on the trains, as well as to collect fares and check to make sure no alcohol was being carried. I presume during exceptionally busy times (eg. Ascot at York) the TOC managing the station can apply to have it 'closed' except to ticket holders. I don't see why a GC train would warrant this. Also, not sure if I've been 100% accurate, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Metroland]

I dont want to get into the 'GC vs NXEC' debate, but I read this last night which may be of interest...


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22-Grand_Central_7sa_GC_cmnts.pdf

That's good to hear!

 

[upyourjunction]

So in simple terms the section of your quote highlighted

If you don't have a valid ticket you cant refuse to show what you haven't got, so there isn't any question of fare evasion

Read the posts in this thread!
This was in reply to the the people on here who seemed to think they could bluster through a ticket barrier!
As I have stated it won,t happen to GC customers at York or KX were GC stop because they are Open Stations!

 

[Max]

As I have stated it won,t happen to GC customers at York or KX were GC stop because they are Open Stations!

Tell that to NXEC then...

 

[mealybar]

That's good to hear!

Certainly not this ticket barrier/check business, which to me might be annoying for the person who transferred TPE to GC, but really doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things:roll:

 

[upyourjunction]

Don't think anybody has the right to barrier trains at Kings Cross except the TOCs themselves. So only GC could barrier their own trains. York is a different matter. Whether it is indeed lawful for them to barrier the station is debateable, as don't they simply manage the station on behalf of Network Rail? I would of thought permission would have ot be sought to barrier the station, and is done during special circumstances. For example, Hull was barrier ed last Saturday morning (day of the playoff final) to restrict numbers travelling on the trains, as well as to collect fares and check to make sure no alcohol was being carried. I presume during exceptionally busy times (eg. Ascot at York) the TOC managing the station can apply to have it 'closed' except to ticket holders. I don't see why a GC train would warrant this. Also, not sure if I've been 100% accurate, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

NXEC can chose to barrier any station that they run, you will find at KX (run by Network Rail) they only control the boarding of their own trains where as at Peterboro, Doncaster & Wakefield when in force every person has to show a valid ticket, York I'm sure they would consider a logistical nightmare so its only done on at Ascot!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tell that to NXEC then...

Don't need to! They Know & they don't it!

 

[Spaceflower]

For gods sake, Leeds is also a gated station, you cannot pass without a valid ticket. Its for security, especially since 7/7. Its GC who are upsetting this, not NXEC.

As for those figures, very reassuring, although again, they dont prove new rail customers. Would also need to a see no decrease in associated pax nos for NXEC or Northern over same period, but then we are are talking about such a small trend against such large numbers, it would be impossible to come to a significant conclusion due to natural /random fluctuations.

Eaglescliffe is a bad station and all the arguments about offering a direct Teeside connection is wrong. Passengers now have the choice of changing at Eaglesclliffe or Northallerton/York for London from elsewhere in Teeside.
Anyone ever been to Eaglescliffe? Its a horrible station, hell i dont think its got A) a secure car park
B)anywhere near decent access.

What many fail to realise is that the durham coast has been neglected for years and transport interchange facilities/security/etc are all very poor.(with the exception perhaps of sunderland since the metro extension, although the location in the busy shopping precinct, without a car park or bus interchange, means metro really is the only access) whereas ECML has seen loads of investment and that can be seen in its success at taking the majority of the london rail market from the coastal towns. in short ECML is much more accessible than the Durham coastline.

 

[Tin Miner]

For gods sake, Leeds is also a gated station, you cannot pass without a valid ticket. Its for security, especially since 7/7. Its GC who are upsetting this, not NXEC.

As for those figures, very reassuring, although again, they dont prove new rail customers. Would also need to a see no decrease in associated pax nos for NXEC or Northern over same period, but then we are are talking about such large numbers, it would be impossible to come to a significant conclusion due to natural /random fluctuations.

Eaglescliffe is a bad station and all the arguments about offering a direct Teeside connection is wrong. Passengers now have the choice of changing at Eaglesclliffe or Northallerton/York for London from elsewhere in Teeside.
Anyone ever been to Eaglescliffe? Its a horrible station, hell i dont think its got A) a secure car park
B)anywhere near decent access.

What many fail to realise is that the durham coast has been neglected for years and transport interchange facilities/security/etc are all very poor.(with the exception perhaps of sunderland since the metro extension, whereas ECML has seen loads of investment and that can be seen in its success at taking the majority of the london rail market from the coastal towns. in short ECML is much more accessible than the Durham coastline.

Oh dear we don't like GC do we.... they make you very very angwy...and make you want to Scweam and Scweam and Scweam until you're sick....

 

[Spaceflower]

Oh dear we don't like GC do we.... they make you very very angwy...and make you want to Scweam and Scweam and Scweam until you're sick....

NO not at all, but they really do have their work cut out. The Durham coast line needs MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE AND STATION INVESTMENT if it has any hopes of competing with ECML.

 

[Metroland]

I reckon GC are getting a good deal TBH, using NXECs station like that, just to throw another spanner into the works.

 

[Spaceflower]

I reckon GC are getting a good deal TBH, using NXECs station like that, just to throw another spanner into the works.

What do you mean?

 

[Max]

I reckon GC are getting a good deal TBH, using NXECs station like that, just to throw another spanner into the works.

NXEC don't own the station! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NXEC can chose to barrier any station that they run, you will find at KX (run by Network Rail) they only control the boarding of their own trains where as at Peterboro, Doncaster & Wakefield when in force every person has to show a valid ticket, York I'm sure they would consider a logistical nightmare so its only done on at Ascot!

I don't think Doncaster or Wakefield are closed stations.

 

[Metroland]

What do you mean?

Well it's managed by them. Staff helping little old ladies on GC trains, selling tickets and so on. No operator works in isolation, pity some members on here can't give them their 10% cut, but then there's nothing like irrationality. They are also paying a premium to keep branch lines open (like the Durham coast) and not keeping it to themselves like GC. For an enthusiast it makes more sense to give NXEC money if they want to see rural lines open - although I'm not saying they shouldn't support GC as well.

 

[upyourjunction]

NXEC don't own the station! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't think Doncaster or Wakefield are closed stations.

They're not thats why I say "when in force" because every now and then they are indeed putting on barriers, which they are entitled to do!

 

[Metroland]

And I've had that confirmed as well.

 

[Pumbaa]

For gods sake, Leeds is also a gated station, you cannot pass without a valid ticket. Its for security, especially since 7/7. Its GC who are upsetting this, not NXEC.

As for those figures, very reassuring, although again, they dont prove new rail customers. Would also need to a see no decrease in associated pax nos for NXEC or Northern over same period, but then we are are talking about such a small trend against such large numbers, it would be impossible to come to a significant conclusion due to natural /random fluctuations.

Yes they do represent new rail customers; read the document!

The Durham coast line needs MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE AND STATION INVESTMENT if it has any hopes of competing with ECML.

It's not about competing with the ECML; its about providing an extra link. GC started services to Sunderland to benefit travellers in the area, not to poach them off the ECML!

 

[Spaceflower]

It's not about competing with the ECML; its about providing an extra link. GC started services to Sunderland to benefit travellers in the area, not to poach them off the ECML!

That's debateable.

Yes they do represent new rail customers; read the document

The figures show increase in passenger numbers from stations served by GC to London. This does not demonstrate new rail growth, as ive said a number of times, these passengers may have previously travelled from durham, darlo, york, ect. The document lacks any real supporting evidence.