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GBRf Class 99 - 30 locomotives now ordered

Richard Scott

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As far as I know know, when it comes to what trains the 99's will be used on, on the candidates is the Caledonian Sleeper.

At the present moment, the train is hauled by 92's from Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, then 73/9's take over for the remainder of the journey to Inverness. The 99's can take the train the entire route, without needing to switch locomotives.
Except they reverse at Edinburgh so require a run round anyway.
As pointed out they're not ETS equipped and, if they were, would probably be for standard supply as believe the sleepers have a, non-standard for UK,1500V supply?
 
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Mag_seven

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I'm quite sure GBRf know exactly what flows they are going to be used on without rail enthusiasts trying to second guess. ;)
 

ChristopherJ

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Just an observation from me.

These Class 99s are spec'd for 8,000hp on electric. Is there any need for a 6 axle loco that powerful in the UK?

For example, a 4 axle Class 90 is 5,000hp and happily hauls container intermodals at 75mph, which is GBRf's main workload.

Could GBRf have spec'd a smaller electric rating in exchange for a bigger (and more powerful) diesel engine?
 

43096

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Just an observation from me.

These Class 99s are spec'd for 8,000hp on electric. Is there any need for a 6 axle loco that powerful in the UK?

For example, a 4 axle Class 90 is 5,000hp and happily hauls container intermodals at 75mph, which is GBRf's main workload.

Could GBRf have spec'd a smaller electric rating in exchange for a bigger (and more powerful) diesel engine?
The Class 90s are usually paired, albeit with a power limit on them. So that suggests that, yes, that output is a good idea on the 99s.
 

Mollman

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They have to run in pairs for Freightliner, a solo 90 won’t keep to timings. DBC, before they ceased using them, also used them in pairs. However it is worth mentioning that GBRf only seem to have one daily intermodal over Shap and Beattock.
But could win more contracts in the future
 

Nottingham59

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They have to run in pairs for Freightliner, a solo 90 won’t keep to timings. DBC, before they ceased using them, also used them in pairs. However it is worth mentioning that GBRf only seem to have one daily intermodal over Shap and Beattock.
A maximum length 1800t intermodal going up a 1% gradient needs an 18t tractive effort = 180kN. At 10m/s (22mph) that requires 1.8MW of power. So a class 90 with 3.7MW could keep going at 44mph up a 1% grade. 66mph would require 5.4MW. The 6MW Class 99 should be able to get up the same slope at around 70-75mph.

Away from the wires, performance will be much less of course. But that doesn't matter on lightly used lines where there are plenty of paths in the timetable. And the busiest lines are now nearly all electrified.

I reckon GBRf knew what they we doing when they specified the Class 99.
 

hwl

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Can it haul an intermodal up Shap and Beattock at 75mph?
No mid-high 60s is more realistic, your expectations of container train resistances at high speed are bit off and the gradients are steeper than 1%. Almost but not quiet as good as a pair of 90s.
 
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Deepgreen

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A maximum length 1800t intermodal going up a 1% gradient needs an 18t tractive effort = 180kN. At 10m/s (22mph) that requires 1.8MW of power. So a class 90 with 3.7MW could keep going at 44mph up a 1% grade. 66mph would require 5.4MW. The 6MW Class 99 should be able to get up the same slope at around 70-75mph.

Away from the wires, performance will be much less of course. But that doesn't matter on lightly used lines where there are plenty of paths in the timetable. And the busiest lines are now nearly all electrified.

I reckon GBRf knew what they we doing when they specified the Class 99.
Careful not to get TE and power conflated. The relationship between TE and power is not linear as TE is compromised by poor adhesion no matter what the power provided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Class 90s are usually paired, albeit with a power limit on them. So that suggests that, yes, that output is a good idea on the 99s.
The pairing is presumably less about power than about adhesion.
 

Richard Scott

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Careful not to get TE and power conflated. The relationship between TE and power is not linear as TE is compromised by poor adhesion no matter what the power provided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


The pairing is presumably less about power than about adhesion.
However AC drives have better control so poor adhesion, whilst still an issue, will be less prominent with a 99.
 

Mollman

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The pairing is presumably less about power than about adhesion.
I seem to recall there is also contingency if one 90 fails. Network Rail prefer double headed freight over Shap to reduce chances of a broken down train blocking the line
 

Nottingham59

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Careful not to get TE and power conflated. The relationship between TE and power is not linear as TE is compromised by poor adhesion no matter what the power provided.
That only applies at low speeds. At the higher speeds, power becomes the limiting factor, and the tractive effort that the locomotive can deliver falls away so it will be much less than the limit of adhesion.
 

WestCountry

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No mid-high 60s is more realistic, your expectations of container train resistances at high speed are bit off and the gradients are steeper than 1%. Almost but not quiet as good as a pair of 90s.
Isn't a pair of 90s in multi restricted to about 7500hp to reduce load on the power supply? Originally by isolating one traction motor on each, then electronically after Freightliner started routinely operating them in pairs.

The quoted 6.17MW is 8270hp; even if that's at the pantograph rather than at rail it ought to equal a restricted pair of 90s.

(you sound informed, perhaps I'm missing something)
 

hwl

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Isn't a pair of 90s in multi restricted to about 7500hp to reduce load on the power supply? Originally by isolating one traction motor on each, then electronically after Freightliner started routinely operating them in pairs.

The quoted 6.17MW is 8270hp; even if that's at the pantograph rather than at rail it ought to equal a restricted pair of 90s.

(you sound informed, perhaps I'm missing something)
0. Electrical engineers have not used horsepower for longer than I've been alive. Don't use hp and then you can't get confused by them!
1. Trains are restricted to 300A current draw, at 25kV this equates to 7,500kW (however the 22.5kV has the to used as conservative assumption)
2. People on rail forums often focus on the continuous values - relying on wikipedia???
3. The Class 90 continuous value is 3730kW (in weak field above ~85mph - hardly relevant for freight!) at the rail which is still a problem for a pair overall if not capped given losses in the locomotive.
4. The peak rating is 5860kW at circa 50mph and reducing as speed either increases or decreases either side of 50mph.
5. The power for a pair is always capped the question is just how much.
6. As others have said a single 90 is adhesion not power limited till ~43mph but with the power limit and reduced power per locomotive the adhesion limit reduces to low 30s mph for pair but you have 8 wheels and lots more weight than a 99.

If we didn't have the 300A limit the Class 99 might be based on something a bit sportier like the Stadler 9000 rather than the Stadler 6000 it is based on (which is effectively the latest version of the electrical equipment ABB developed for the Class 92 with 2+ generations of upgrades).
 

Harpo

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I seem to recall there is also contingency if one 90 fails. Network Rail prefer double headed freight over Shap to reduce chances of a broken down train blocking the line
There’s ‘prefer’ and ‘require’. I can’t see that any such ‘preference’ would have any influence anyway. If it’s not a documented policy it’s best filed under wibble.

After all, there are a number of heavy trains reliably hauled over the northern WCML every night by a single 92, albeit not freights.
 

hwl

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There’s ‘prefer’ and ‘require’. I can’t see that any such ‘preference’ would have any influence anyway. If it’s not a documented policy it’s best filed under wibble.

After all, there are a number of heavy trains reliably hauled over the northern WCML every night by a single 92, albeit not freights.
A 92 has better traction equipment than a 90 and 2 more axles.

The performance of single class 88 in autumn on intermodal on the northern WCML will tell our everything to need to know.

The key point is that you need two 90s to keep to the timing requirements with heavier loads.
 

TheGrew

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Without getting too sidetracked is the 300A limit imposed by Network Rail and UK electrification or is it a broader limit? Just wondering if it could theoretically be increased given the desire to run more electric traction.
 

hwl

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Without getting too sidetracked is the 300A limit imposed by Network Rail and UK electrification or is it a broader limit? Just wondering if it could theoretically be increased given the desire to run more electric traction.
Effectively NR as it is the worst a supply should be able to support per train in the worst case and usually should be much better. The trains are then effectively limited to the infrastucture worst case (unlike modern 3rd rail units which adapt to power supply condition in various ways)
Doesn't apply on HS1 where the 374s take upto 18MW and you can double headed 92s without issue...

It is under review currently, though I suspect NR will protest too much about an increases.
 

Rail Quest

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Came across an article today from rail advent (posted two days ago) with a picture of 99001 in what looks to be a far more finished GBRf livery compared to what we've seen previously. (Attached photo taken from the article)

The article also states the loco is off to Velim test track and will then come to UK. It goes on to say UK testing is expected to begin in Summer 2025

Link to the article: https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2025/0...ve-leaves-for-test-track.html#google_vignette
 

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delt1c

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Except they reverse at Edinburgh so require a run round anyway.
As pointed out they're not ETS equipped and, if they were, would probably be for standard supply as believe the sleepers have a, non-standard for UK,1500V supply?
Route the sleeper via the sub at Edinburgh
 

Nottingham59

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The performance of single class 88 in autumn on intermodal on the northern WCML will tell our everything to need to know.
How do the 88s perform? I've not seen much comment on them, but it would be relevant to the 93s and the 99s ...
 

Richard Scott

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Routing via the Sub would avoid a reversal. It would still need splitting into three though
Ok, doesn't solve the 1500V supply issue, though, so currently a non-starter anyway.
Drifting into speculation here.
 
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themiller

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How do the 88s perform? I've not seen much comment on them, but it would be relevant to the 93s and the 99s ...
The 88s perform adequately on the Tescos but, when the adhesion’s low, they are double headed by another 88 or a 68. A 93 may be slightly more powerful but is higher geared so probably performs the same as an 88 on containers up Shap but a 99 has an extra two axles with which to lay down its increased power so should perform better especially considering its lower gearing.
 

Nottingham59

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The 88s perform adequately on the Tescos but, when the adhesion’s low, they are double headed by another 88 or a 68. A 93 may be slightly more powerful but is higher geared so probably performs the same as an 88 on containers up Shap but a 99 has an extra two axles with which to lay down its increased power so should perform better especially considering its lower gearing.
That's not encouraging for the 93s. According to wikipedia, they deliver less tractive effort (290kN) than an 88 (317kN). But that discussion is for another thread. The 99 will be far superior with 500kN when it matters.
 

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