Gaining access to train door control panels

[pendolino]

The person(s) who aimed to publicly humiliate the guard by posting their antics and the guards response on YT.

(And for the avoidance of any doubt I do not include pendolino in that comment - he was merely seeking to discuss the implications of their behaviour).

Who? Me? What? I only mentioned about LIM keys.

 

[michael769]

Who? Me? What? I only mentioned about LIM keys.

Sorry! Poster error - somehow I got you confused with the OP on the thread. Just ignore that post!

 

[notadriver]

Doesn't your TOC give them out for LIM key resets?

No we aren't allowed to do them. No key given

 

[deltic1989]

RE: the train surfer clip. It was on Rude Tube a few months ago, they guy that did it isn't dead he's still very much alive, he just decided to stop doing daft things like that before he DID get killed, so he decided the best way to stop and avoid attention from the rozzers was to "kill off" the Trainrider.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I have reported the clip to youtube. Whether it's effective we'll wait and see.

lol there is no need mate like I said it does not violate youtubes rules so just don't get involved mate

 

[MidnightFlyer]

lol there is no need mate like I said it does not violate youtubes rules so just don't get involved mate

I once got a video removed for a video that didn't strictly violate rules so there we go.

 

[rmt-driver]

I once got a video removed for a video that didn't strictly violate rules so there we go.

Why do you even care so much?

 

[Matt Taylor]

There was quite a discussion on the issue of panel security when I did my training, SWT specified T-Keys for the Desiros which in retrospect was a bad move but my recollection is that a decision was made that whatever key was used would sooner or later fall into the wrong hands. Fortunately the panels on 455s are much more secure.

I obviously can't go into specifics but safeguards are in place to ensure that random people cannot start opening doors. And having a handset at every door is far from a 'fail', it is in fact a godsend and ensures guards can patrol trains effectively and work from anywhere in the train, and on a more important note it ensures that the guard and driver can communicate from anywhere.

 

[AndyJB]

RE: the train surfer clip. It was on Rude Tube a few months ago, they guy that did it isn't dead he's still very much alive, he just decided to stop doing daft things like that before he DID get killed, so he decided the best way to stop and avoid attention from the rozzers was to "kill off" the Trainrider.

Typical. Pity this isn't common knowledge - the bloke was no legend and what he did wasn't admirable. He was a complete and utter idiot.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Typical. Pity this isn't common knowledge - the bloke was no legend and what he did wasn't admirable. He was a complete and utter idiot.

It's a pity the post wasn't composed of knowledge either - he did not have leukaemia, but he did not post the story that he did either. In fact, in an interview with a German media organisation it was revealed that a fan of his produced the hoax.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I once got a video removed for a video that didn't strictly violate rules so there we go.

on my old account i got a video deleted after some copyright thingy and it was a snippet of the film brief encounter

 

[ralphchadkirk]

on my old account i got a video deleted after some copyright thingy and it was a snippet of the film brief encounter

So you violated copyright laws and yet are still surprised when the video was removed?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Typical. Pity this isn't common knowledge - the bloke was no legend and what he did wasn't admirable. He was a complete and utter idiot.

well thats your opinion mate and thats fine
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So you violated copyright laws and yet are still surprised when the video was removed?

I know but it was a film made in the 40s and i posted it in december last year it was quite funny how people are still claiming copyright from so many years ago lol

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I know but it was a film made in the 40s and i posted it in december last year it was quite funny how people are still claiming copyright from so many years ago lol

Films are protected for 70 years from the death of the last of the following: the principal director, the author of the screenplay, the author of the dialogue and the composer.

 

[chiltern_chidg]

Sadly you can sometimes pick-up T-Keys on ebay. It doesn't help though, if train crew leave panels or drivers doors open etc :/.

Matthew

 

[HugePilchard]

The thing about T-keys (possibly excluding the ones with pins in the middle of the lock) is that they're by no means exclusive to the railways. I know of more than one instance away from the public transport sector where people have been looking for a lock to deter casual access to an area, and have settled upon budget locks with T-keys as the ideal solution.

The reason T-keys and master keys are so prevalent is because with a large number of people with a legitimate need to access a large number of panels, distributing individual keys for each vehicle to all staff would be impossible. How should it be solved? Well, I guess electric locking of the panels is one way forward, which would allow lost keys to be removed from the system - but they don't call the T-key locks "budget locks" for no reason, and implementing an electronic system wouldn't be without some considerable costs. Not to mention that you've got the possibility of a guard getting onto a train and finding out that it doesn't recognise their new electronic keyfob/card, and that they can't open the doors!

 

[M60lad]

Quite a few times when I've been travelling on Northerns 142s I've noticed the door control panels left open, question is am I as a passenger allowed to close the panel to stop people gaining access to it or should I report it to the conductor when/if he comes down the train.

I've also seen the outside door control panels left open aswell

 

[Liam]

You could almost dismantle a 158 with a T key.

 

[Hydro]

You could almost dismantle a 158 with a T key.

You could almost dismantle a few TOCs examples with a good cough.

 

[TDK]

What makes this very sad is that the guard is only doing his job, the boys are just p*ssing about, the guard is being humiliated, and the fact that it is on youtube just makes it worse. The worst bit in my opinion is that the 'BTP' did nothing - it's as bad as happy slapping.

If rules aren't going to be enforced, there's no point in having them. How can we expect the guard to challenge behaviour like this, if the BTP aren't going to back him up and reprimand the trouble makers...

Legally what did the plebs do wrong? I say legally, is there a law where the people can be arrested and charged with an offence? If not this is the issue here and not the BTP doing nothing
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Thankfully not many seem to have a BR1B key although I have seen some trolley buffet staff and RPIs with this key - not sure why they would need it. I've even seen a guard with a drivers master key attached to his bag.

I have seen the on eBay and reported them every time with no response from Ebay
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The person(s) who aimed to publicly humiliate the guard by posting their antics and the guards response on YT.

(And for the avoidance of any doubt I do not include pendolino in that comment - he was merely seeking to discuss the implications of their behaviour).

The behaviour was out of order, the guard handled it well the only offence here I feel is the filming and publishing of the clip

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Legally what did the plebs do wrong? I say legally, is there a law where the people can be arrested and charged with an offence?

Byelaw 6(2):

No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.

Byelaw 6(8):

No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

Byelaw 7(1)(ii):

Except with written permission from an Operator no person on the railway shall, to the annoyance of any person:
(i) sing; or
(ii) use any instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound.

Byelaw 11(3):

No person shall, without reasonable cause, activate any emergency system and/or any communications system provided on any part of the railway including a train.

 

[BestWestern]

Quite a few times when I've been travelling on Northerns 142s I've noticed the door control panels left open, question is am I as a passenger allowed to close the panel to stop people gaining access to it or should I report it to the conductor when/if he comes down the train.

I've also seen the outside door control panels left open aswell

I suppose there is nothing to stop you from standing up and closing the panel, provided of course that it can't be implied that you were attempting to interfere with the controls behind it. I personally wouldn't have any issue with a well intentioned person simply pushing shut a panel which shouldn't have been open. Of course any reaction you might get would depend on the Guard's intentions; if he had deliberately left it open to save himself the effort of unlocking it again, then he may take offence. But then again that would be a reckless way to operate the train, seeing as certian buttons on a Pacer are live even with the DKS keyed out (they are on 143 stock so I presume the situation is the same on a 142).

The external panels have a habit of breaking and can be impossible to lock!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Films are protected for 70 years from the death of the last of the following: the principal director, the author of the screenplay, the author of the dialogue and the composer.

yes I gathered

 

[BestWestern]

Byelaw 11(3):
No person shall, without reasonable cause, activate any emergency system and/or any communications system provided on any part of the railway including a train.

I would think that is the one which the BTP ought to have been looking at here. These people had the equipment and the potential to activate the train door controls here, with the train on the move and carrying passengers. The fact that they chose not to do that in this particular isntance doesn't remove the seriousness of what could very easily have occurred.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would think that is the one which the BTP ought to have been looking at here. These people had the equipment and the potential to activate the train door controls here, with the train on the move and carrying passengers. The fact that they chose not to do that in this particular isntance doesn't remove the seriousness of what could very easily have occurred.

Unfortunately the law often doesn't look at what *could* have happened. I agree that 11(3) is the most likely one for prosecution with 7(1) coming last. Certainly if I were the guard the train would not have moved from the next station until they left the train.

 

[BestWestern]

Unfortunately the law often doesn't look at what *could* have happened. I agree that 11(3) is the most likely one for prosecution with 7(1) coming last. Certainly if I were the guard the train would not have moved from the next station until they left the train.

Indeed. As I said earlier though, if you had broken a similar law relating to an aircraft mid-flight, you'd be met be a nice policeman or five, with numerous firearms and a van waiting to take you directly to the cells. Presumably we will start taking things seriously on the railways the day after somebody forces their way into a driving cab (which quite frankly wouldn't even require a key of any sort on most of the BR units) :roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Your plane would probably have been diverted to meet the men with guns and dogs! Sadly, we are reactionary, so it will take someone to force their way into cabs, or mess around with door controls before something is done.

 

[87015]

Your plane would probably have been diverted to meet the men with guns and dogs! Sadly, we are reactionary, so it will take someone to force their way into cabs, or mess around with door controls before something is done.

Its really not very rare for people to get into the back cabs and/or equipment cupboards and must happen at least daily across the network. Doors being pulled is two a penny.

 

[CarterUSM]

Your plane would probably have been diverted to meet the men with guns and dogs! Sadly, we are reactionary, so it will take someone to force their way into cabs, or mess around with door controls before something is done.

I don't know Ralph, it happens occasionally and still nowt is done.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't know Ralph, it happens occasionally and still nowt is done.

It'll take someone to force their way into a cab or door control and cause serious injury or death before something is done then.