G4S Staff and Platform Access (Manchester Piccadilly)

[Baxenden Bank]

As you/anyone who has found this on Google may know, in some areas, a Penalty Fare can be charged automatically to anyone caught without a valid ticket, for the greater of £20 or twice the value of the ticket. These are used in areas where it is (supposedly) always possible to buy a ticket before boarding a train. They mean that the TOC can reclaim money from people caught without a ticket with not much effort/evidence at all, compared to the rigmarole involved in going to court to sue for a fare, or to prosecute for fare evasion or fraud.

These usually only apply to trains, but some stations have Compulsory Ticket Areas defined: areas in which a penalty fare can be charged to anyone without a ticket, regardless of whether or not they have travelled on/are intending to travel on a train. These are meant to be used in areas with high frequency services where people might be caught not only aboard trains, but after having alighted from one. Outside CTAs, people caught alighting from a train without a ticket can still be prosecuted, but the TOC has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they have come off a train (usually with CCTV), as well as all the other things that must be proven (there was opportunity to buy a ticket, ticket machines were working, etc). In CTAs these people can just be given a penalty.

Compulsory Ticket Areas are present in all (I think) London Underground and Docklands Light Railway stations, as well as some National Rail stations. They must always be clearly signed, for example with a DLR-style red line across the floor demarcating the area, or with signs on ticket barriers warning a penalty for passing this point. The majority of stations with ticket barriers do not have CTAs applied, and you can cross to the other side without a ticket if they/any side gates are left open. (you can always cross, CTA or not, to the other side with the permission of staff - I've been let into tube stations without a valid ticket quite a few times).

There is more information about PFs and CTAs in sections 10.4 - 10.8 of the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide

For the purposes of avoidance of doubt, Penalty Fares do not apply on any trains from Manchester Piccadilly, and Manchester Piccadilly has no Compulsory Ticket Areas.

So, by extrapolation, no ticket, of any kind, is needed to wander at will around Manchester Piccadilly station platforms? The Northern inspired ticket checks are an exercise in futility and if you do not have a ticket no-one can insist that you buy one unless they can prove (to a court if necessary) that you have travelled / intend to travel on a train?

Thus, the OP needs to politely remind the G4S staff of these basic facts and perform his assistance without further hindrance?

 

[Haywain]

Thus, the OP needs to politely remind the G4S staff of these basic facts and perform his assistance without further hindrance?

The OP hasn't reported any hindrance, so there doesn't appear to be anything of which G4S staff require reminding.

 

[island]

Ownership being public or private is not relevent.

Railway stations are deemed public places to which the puiblic have unfettered access - so long as they behave themselves. Boarding a train is a legitimate reason for being on railway premises. Assisting a passenger is also a legitimate reason.

It's a little more complicated than that.

Railway stations are private property, which members of the public have an implied licence to access for reasonable purposes, such as to join a train, see someone off, purchase a ticket, or use retail facilities. Access will also normally be suffered by the owner to members of the public who want to come in and sit down for a while, or photograph trains, and so on.

The licence is not "unfettered". It may be revoked by the owner or his agent at any time for any reason or for no reason at all. And it may be limited to such areas of the property as may be designated. A revocation may relate to the rights of the public in general (such as when the station closes for the night, or for Christmas, or if an incident occurs and they evacuate the station). It may also act in respect of one or more specific members of the public, such as those who act in a riotous, disorderly, or other undesired manner, or those whose actions suggest that they do not have a legitimate purpose on the station, such as by failing to present a valid ticket when seeking to access a part of the station, access to which is restricted to ticket holders. But it does not have to have such a reason — the fact that a person resembles in appearance a mendicant whose licence to be on the property has previously been revoked is sufficient to refuse that person access, even though on a mistaken premise.

The sweeping statement that a railway station is "a public place" is, as you have recognized, not quite right.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The OP hasn't reported any hindrance, so there doesn't appear to be anything of which G4S staff require reminding.

Will STM Security (or whosoever takes over the G4S contract) will have the matters discussed so far covered by their company training programme ?

I fear that some forum members will be really annoyed by the demise of G4S on the Northern Rail contract, as this will take away a ready source of forum posting matters..:roll:

 

[Urban Gateline]

Will STM Security (or whosoever takes over the G4S contract) will have the matters discussed so far covered by their company training programme ?

I fear that some forum members will be really annoyed by the demise of G4S on the Northern Rail contract, as this will take away a ready source of forum posting matters..:roll:

You obviously haven't met many STM staff, incompetent clowns, they will cause just as many issues at Northern unfortunately!

 

[island]

Wouldn't all the staff just be TUPEd over, so it'll be same staff different uniform?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wouldn't all the staff just be TUPEd over, so it'll be same staff different uniform?

Will the staff who transfer by TUPE receive any retraining from the new company ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You obviously haven't met many STM staff, incompetent clowns, they will cause just as many issues at Northern unfortunately!

Are you saying that Northern Rail are already aware the shortcomings of STM Security from what you say ?