G4S Staff and Platform Access (Manchester Piccadilly)

[Mcr Warrior]

Any practical guidance as regards avoiding issues with the G4S staff at Manchester Piccadilly when accessing the platforms there in order to assist a passenger with luggage.

 

[221129]

Get a Platform Ticket? or ask them? Or get a cheap return?

 

[telstarbox]

Just show them an out-of-date collection receipt on orange stock and you'll be fine.

 

[185]

Just show them an out-of-date collection receipt on orange stock and you'll be fine.

Never advisable. There are one or two Northern RPOs, wearing the same uniform mixed in amongst them.

Just politely tell them you are assisting with luggage and they should be okay. If they refuse, call Network Rail's duty manager, and demand proper, formal assistance, and explain why you have had to ask for it.

 

[455driver]

Never advisable. There are one or two Northern RPOs, wearing the same uniform mixed in amongst them.

Just politely tell them you are assisting with luggage and they should be okay. If they refuse, call Network Rail's duty manager, and demand proper, formal assistance, and explain why you have had to ask for it.

And explain why you hadnt booked assistance in advance!

Assistance if there for this exact reason, although preventing you access to the platform would be rather draconian.

 

[howittpie]

I had this issue at Man Pic I told the g4s staff that I wanted to buy a platform ticket this seemed to confuse them and I was told to continue on through

 

[tony_mac]

Assistance if there for this exact reason

No, it really isn't!

(I believe that it is undoubtedly a reasonable adjustment to allow somebody else to assist a disabled passenger without them having to book it in advance. Not doing so would, in my opinion, certainly break the law.
However, I don't see anything to indicate that is what this thread is about. )

 

[185]

And explain why you hadnt booked assistance in advance!

The explanation for not booking assistance in advance would be you did not realise that they would not let you assist someone onto the platform.

 

[Merseysider]

There's hardly ever Northern staff at Platforms 5 & 6 - these are used for Virgin services and so no-one checking tickets (does depend what time of day though) Enter through one of these and then walk along to the right platform?

 

[neilmc]

There's hardly ever Northern staff at Platforms 5 & 6 - these are used for Virgin services and so no-one checking tickets (does depend what time of day though) Enter through one of these and then walk along to the right platform?

I think the problem arises with platforms 13/14 which are the through platforms and always seem to have a blockade of checkers between there and the rest of the station.

 

[Merseysider]

I think the problem arises with platforms 13/14 which are the through platforms and always seem to have a blockade of checkers between there and the rest of the station.

Not a problem; there are "travelators" (basically step-free escalators) up to P13/14. These can be reached by entering through any one of the glass sliding doors (there's always at least one unmanned) and there are also lifts at the back of the station. This

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MAN/plan.html?rtnloc=MAN

might help.

 

[erk]

Not a problem; there are "travelators" (basically step-free escalators) up to P13/14. These can be reached by entering through any one of the glass sliding doors (there's always at least one unmanned) and there are also lifts at the back of the station.

The "blockade" is on the overbridge between the stairs for platforms 8/9 and those for platforms 10/11; at the glass sliding doors to platforms 10-12; behind the buffer stops between platforms 9 and 10; and by the lift from the upper waiting area to Fairfield St. It surrounds platforms 10 to 14.

 

[Merseysider]

It surrounds platforms 10 to 14.

Most of my journeys are late evening so I probably haven't picked up on the extent of this.

The only other thing I would suggest is simply approaching a member of the Northern blockade and asking him/her for help with it. If they refuse, then they can't really turn around and prevent someone else who's with you assisting with the luggage / wheelchair. If they agree, = work done for you.

 

[TUC]

It may be as well that someone wants to help with luggage etc for someone who isn't disabled or otherwise require wider assistance. They're simply a family member or friend who will have a lot of luggage and so as part of just treating people well you want to go to the platform to assist them.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Any practical guidance as regards avoiding issues with the G4S staff at Manchester Piccadilly when accessing the platforms there in order to assist a passenger with luggage.

What law is there preventing you from entering the platform?

You must have a ticket before boarding a train, indeed it is an offence not to do so. However you're not boarding a train ergo no need for a ticket. Discuss

Someone asked a couple of days ago, what happens if you enter the station pre-blockade but try to exit once a blockade is in place. You must have a ticket to travel on a train, not to be on railway premises!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just politely tell them you are assisting with luggage and they should be okay. If they refuse, call Network Rail's duty manager, and demand proper, formal assistance, and explain why you have had to ask for it.

What is the relationship between Network Rail (as station owner and facility operator) and the various TOC's? Would I be correct in thinking there is a certain amount of friction in these inter TOC / Network Rail relationships with regard to ticket barriers / checks? Hence the lack of staff on the Virgin served platforms.

As a Virgin passenger, on a VT trains only ticket, can the Northern representatives really insist on seeing my ticket?

 

[Darandio]

What law is there preventing you from entering the platform?

It's private property for a start.

Something for you to discuss.

 

[Gathursty]

Someone asked a couple of days ago, what happens if you enter the station pre-blockade but try to exit once a blockade is in place. You must have a ticket to travel on a train, not to be on railway premises!

My answer comes from Lewisham railway station before Christmas. It must have been about 7am-ish and I was wanting to take a picture but wanted to avoid the morning sun glaring on to the sign outside so I headed to a quiet platform. On returning, I thought I would get a problem as the gates were now in use so I just said to the guy to let me out as I had waved someone off before they were in place. Pretty straightforward and no problems.

 

[455driver]

As a Virgin passenger, on a VT trains only ticket, can the Northern representatives really insist on seeing my ticket?

Yes because all companies sharing a station will have an agreement in place for that to happen!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I had a similar episode at Picc. I asked for access to the through platforms on the bridge. When I returned I went down the travellators. As I came down I suddenly realised I was in a situation as whilst I had a VT ticket to London how were the guys at the end of this platform to know I hadn't come in on a Northern train to connect?

As it happens they let me through without question.

It would have been an interesting debate!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's private property for a start.

Something for you to discuss.

Ownership being public or private is not relevent.

Railway stations are deemed public places to which the puiblic have unfettered access - so long as they behave themselves. Boarding a train is a legitimate reason for being on railway premises. Assisting a passenger is also a legitimate reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes because all companies sharing a station will have an agreement in place for that to happen!

Opinion or fact?

 

[Romilly]

Ownership being public or private is not relevent. Railway stations are deemed public places to which the public have unfettered access - so long as they behave themselves. Boarding a train is a legitimate reason for being on railway premises. Assisting a passenger is also a legitimate reason.

Although the law of England & Wales recognises a public right to pass over any land whose surface is a highway, and although there may be public rights over town & village greens, all land in England & Wales has an owner. Subject to public rights of those and similar kinds, and to any private rights (e.g. a neighbour's right of way over a shared drive), ownership of land carries with it the ability to control access to the land. It doesn't matter whether the owner is a private individual, a commercial organisation or a public body.

If I don't build an inpenetrable barrier around my front garden, but instead lay a path to my front door and install a letterbox and a doorbell or door knocker, it is implied that I have given permission to enter my land for the purpose of putting post etc through my letterbox or ringing the doorbell. That implied permission may be overridden by notices saying "No free newspapers or hawkers, thank you."

A station is no different in principle. Except in those few cases where there is a public right of way (e.g. over an internal station bridge), a station can lawfully locked at night or at other times. When not locked, there is implied permission to enter station premises to use the shops, go to the ticket office or join or leave a train. In the ordinary course of events, one would expect there to be implied permission to enter for the purpose of assisting others to join or leave trains. But that implied permission can be overridden, e.g. by ticket barriers or a decision of the operator or its staff, or can be conditional on good behaviour.

So although in practice it may feel as though there is unfettered public access to stations for the wellbehaved, that is not (I think) the strict analysis in England & Wales.

 

[BurtonM]

If you're dropping someone off from Fairfield Street and need to assist them, just go up the lift at the far end of the car park that leads you inside the blockade. Seeing as G4S are idiots, when they expanded checks from 13/14 to 10-14, the lift loophole was created, and while they do seem to be aware of it, I have only ever seen it being guarded once, and I think it was peak time.

Personally I think that the inspection that occurs there is a shambles and an exercise in futility, as I may have said elsewhere, it blocks off useful shops and services/facilities, keeps draughty doors open, has a loophole, and the staff are useless at their jobs: just wait for someone to ask for help, and walk through unnoticed!
And if they do happen to notice you, they don't seem to know what tickets are valid anyway - for example you in TfGM land, you can't use a child season ticket with the Scholar's Concessionary Permit, yet they don't know this and accept it, and will even sell you one in some cases!

 

[LowLevel]

Ownership being public or private is not relevent.

Railway stations are deemed public places to which the puiblic have unfettered access - so long as they behave themselves. Boarding a train is a legitimate reason for being on railway premises. Assisting a passenger is also a legitimate reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Opinion or fact?

Regarding ticket inspections etc, that's fact. It's generally part of the stations access agreement that any member of railway station staff may request to see a passenger's ticket if they see fit. Certainly where I worked previously my TOC was paid a reasonable amount of money by the other TOC that ran through the station to do it, in fact, as well as dispatching their trains and doing their passenger assistance jobs.

 

[Paul Kelly]

A station is no different in principle. Except in those few cases where there is a public right of way (e.g. over an internal station bridge), a station can lawfully locked at night or at other times. When not locked, there is implied permission to enter station premises to use the shops, go to the ticket office or join or leave a train. In the ordinary course of events, one would expect there to be implied permission to enter for the purpose of assisting others to join or leave trains. But that implied permission can be overridden, e.g. by ticket barriers or a decision of the operator or its staff, or can be conditional on good behaviour.

At Liverpool Street station in London there is a poster that threatens Network Rail will withdraw the implied right of access to people engaged in begging, or a few other activities I can't remember now that aren't likely to enhance the overall ambience of the station. I believe it states that targeted people will be issued with some sort of paperwork confirming the withdrawal of the implied right of access for them personally.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Regarding ticket inspections etc, that's fact. It's generally part of the stations access agreement that any member of railway station staff may request to see a passenger's ticket if they see fit. Certainly where I worked previously my TOC was paid a reasonable amount of money by the other TOC that ran through the station to do it, in fact, as well as dispatching their trains and doing their passenger assistance jobs.

Request to see which ticket? A ticket is required to travel on a companies trains - not to walk along or stand on its platforms. I don't suggest pushing this too hard as G4S may simply maintain (mistakenly or maliciously), that they saw you alight from a train, that you have no ticket, thus you are a fare evader. It then becomes your word against theirs, never a good position to be in.

However, you might have inadvertantly exploited the Fairfield Street lift loophole, as described by a previous poster. Perhaps someone 'in charge' at Piccadilly needs to actually be in charge!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At Liverpool Street station in London there is a poster that threatens Network Rail will withdraw the implied right of access to people engaged in begging, or a few other activities I can't remember now that aren't likely to enhance the overall ambience of the station. I believe it states that targeted people will be issued with some sort of paperwork confirming the withdrawal of the implied right of access for them personally.

Which suggests that, unless you are commiting one of those activities, that Network Rail accept that there is an implied right of access to the general public.

 

[CatfordCat]

Ownership being public or private is not relevent.

Railway stations are deemed public places to which the puiblic have unfettered access - so long as they behave themselves. Boarding a train is a legitimate reason for being on railway premises. Assisting a passenger is also a legitimate reason.

I don't think the public is, or has ever been, allowed 'unfettered access' to all of a railway station. In BR days, you used to have to be in possession of either a valid travel or platform ticket to get past the ticket barriers when such things were staffed directly by BR employees - and that this practice had been the case for much of the railways' history.

And I'm not sure that the 'public place' concept you refer to here has any standing in law.

If a private property owner allows access on to their property, be that a railway station, shopping centre (or an increasing number of what appear to be streets - which is another argument) then my understanding is the owner is allowed to impose some conditions on those people entering the place. And so long as those conditions don't break some other law (e.g. race discrimination) I would have thought that's legal.

Does the privatised railway still do platform tickets? (I think the last time I purchased one must have been some time in the mid 80s, and haven't really considered it since)

And I am sure that at some stations, the point at which "you must have a valid ticket to pass this point or you might get done for a penalty fare" applies is the point where ticket barriers once were, even if there's no physical barrier any more. The Docklands Light Railway has (or had) fairly clear red lines on the ground at such points.

There might be a legal argument if "reasonable notice" is not given (e.g. the sign telling you that you're about to pass the point is inside a locked building)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Although the law of England & Wales recognises a public right to pass over any land whose surface is a highway, and although there may be public rights over town & village greens, all land in England & Wales has an owner. Subject to public rights of those and similar kinds, and to any private rights (e.g. a neighbour's right of way over a shared drive), ownership of land carries with it the ability to control access to the land. It doesn't matter whether the owner is a private individual, a commercial organisation or a public body.

If I don't build an inpenetrable barrier around my front garden, but instead lay a path to my front door and install a letterbox and a doorbell or door knocker, it is implied that I have given permission to enter my land for the purpose of putting post etc through my letterbox or ringing the doorbell. That implied permission may be overridden by notices saying "No free newspapers or hawkers, thank you."

A station is no different in principle. Except in those few cases where there is a public right of way (e.g. over an internal station bridge), a station can lawfully locked at night or at other times. When not locked, there is implied permission to enter station premises to use the shops, go to the ticket office or join or leave a train. In the ordinary course of events, one would expect there to be implied permission to enter for the purpose of assisting others to join or leave trains. But that implied permission can be overridden, e.g. by ticket barriers or a decision of the operator or its staff, or can be conditional on good behaviour.

So although in practice it may feel as though there is unfettered public access to stations for the wellbehaved, that is not (I think) the strict analysis in England & Wales.

Agreed, unfettered was (certainly in legal terms) the wrong word. Implied right is a better way to phrase it.

However there is a need to guard against creeping restrictions against established freedoms / rights without there necessarily being a legal basis on which to restrict such things. For example the fuss a while back by some TOC staff about people taking photographs on stations, needing to sign in first etc.

Certainly, as regards the OP's original question, I would think it polite to explain to the G4S (or any other railway staff) that I wished to assist someone on / off a train rather than barging straight past shouting out some claimed right. But, when doing so, am I requesting their permission or politely asserting a right? On what basis would / could they refuse a reasonable request to legitimately use railway property? (lets face it, they wouldn't have a clue).

Does anyone have experience or knowledge the situation which applies at fully gated stations, is a platform ticket available or is access forbidden unless a travel ticket is held?

 

[bb21]

A platform ticket should be sold if needed but different stations adopt different approaches depending on what you plan to do. You may be asked to inform certain staff of your presence, or to sign in on a visitor book.

Platform tickets, where sold, cost 10p currently. I last purchased one at Stratford International, valid for 60 minutes.

 

[PermitToTravel]

And I am sure that at some stations, the point at which "you must have a valid ticket to pass this point or you might get done for a penalty fare" applies is the point where ticket barriers once were, even if there's no physical barrier any more. The Docklands Light Railway has (or had) fairly clear red lines on the ground at such points.

There might be a legal argument if "reasonable notice" is not given (e.g. the sign telling you that you're about to pass the point is inside a locked building)

Does anyone have experience or knowledge the situation which applies at fully gated stations, is a platform ticket available or is access forbidden unless a travel ticket is held?

As you/anyone who has found this on Google may know, in some areas, a Penalty Fare can be charged automatically to anyone caught without a valid ticket, for the greater of £20 or twice the value of the ticket. These are used in areas where it is (supposedly) always possible to buy a ticket before boarding a train. They mean that the TOC can reclaim money from people caught without a ticket with not much effort/evidence at all, compared to the rigmarole involved in going to court to sue for a fare, or to prosecute for fare evasion or fraud.

These usually only apply to trains, but some stations have Compulsory Ticket Areas defined: areas in which a penalty fare can be charged to anyone without a ticket, regardless of whether or not they have travelled on/are intending to travel on a train. These are meant to be used in areas with high frequency services where people might be caught not only aboard trains, but after having alighted from one. Outside CTAs, people caught alighting from a train without a ticket can still be prosecuted, but the TOC has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they have come off a train (usually with CCTV), as well as all the other things that must be proven (there was opportunity to buy a ticket, ticket machines were working, etc). In CTAs these people can just be given a penalty.

Compulsory Ticket Areas are present in all (I think) London Underground and Docklands Light Railway stations, as well as some National Rail stations. They must always be clearly signed, for example with a DLR-style red line across the floor demarcating the area, or with signs on ticket barriers warning a penalty for passing this point. The majority of stations with ticket barriers do not have CTAs applied, and you can cross to the other side without a ticket if they/any side gates are left open. (you can always cross, CTA or not, to the other side with the permission of staff - I've been let into tube stations without a valid ticket quite a few times).

There is more information about PFs and CTAs in sections 10.4 - 10.8 of the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide

For the purposes of avoidance of doubt, Penalty Fares do not apply on any trains from Manchester Piccadilly, and Manchester Piccadilly has no Compulsory Ticket Areas.

 

[John @ home]

Platform tickets, where sold, cost 10p currently.

The 10p price appeared in The Manual and was observed by train companies who are members of ATOC.

But Network Rail is not a member of ATOC and does not charge 10p for platform tickets at the stations they manage. At Leeds, the price has been 20p for at least 8 years, and the ticket issued still does not operate the ticket gates at Leeds station.