Future TPE Service Patterns (And LIV - NOR)

[tbtc]

that guy probably put 'K' instead of 'M'
as for my opinion on the issue at hand.
First of all, I agree that Liverpool South Parkway does currently get a sound level of service for the number of passengers... and the attempts to justify it using LJLA's usage seems a bit inapproprate... will there not be people in the South of Liverpool that use the station to get to the heart of Liverpool, and also to other places such as Manchester. However, i do not think that Liverpool South Parkway alone warrants continuing service via Warrington Central, then taking the Guide Bridge line at Piccadilly, as there is surely more demand for services heading south out of Piccadilly (I'd personally say that another MAN-Marple (either station) via Hyde would be better use of the path to Guide Bridge. Someone suggested a Buxton to Liverpool, however, as far as I know, the only largish settlements on that line are New Mills and Buxton itself, and since New Mills currently gets 3 tph to Manchester (2 from Central, 1 from Newtown), means that i dont think that this would be warranted. If there is some agreement that TPX have to do Warrington-Leeds, then my suggestion would be to have the current Hull - Manchester continue to Warrington Bank Quay, terminating in the disused bay between 3 and 4 (i think ive got the right platforms there- the two nearest that horrible factory). I think that the Scarborough - Liverpool, if it runs through Chat Moss, should call at Newton, St Helens and Wavertree, taking the place of the Man Airport - Liverpool semi-fast, and the stock that currently does Man Airport - Liverpool, should go via Warrington, calling Urmston, Birchwood, Warrington Ctl, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. I suggest adding Urmston because I feel that this can act as a "Trafford Centre Parkway" with a through ticket for the bus 23.
One thing that I do think is that Manchester Airport has too many expresses, I understand that the North-West and Scotland TPXs, plus Liverpool and Southport Northerns run here to avoid cluttering 13/14 at Piccadilly, i completely fail to see why Cleethorpes, Newcastle and Middlesbrough services bother turning around to go to the Airport... this adds an extra hour return trip to the airport on the end, which could be used to double-up 185s for busy routes... maybe have the two northerns make intermediate calls, Liverpool calling Heald Green, Gatley, East Didsbury, and the Southport calling at East Didsbury, Burnage and Mauldeth Road? Just a suggestion like.

(P.S. Im sorry if this all seems a little incoherent)

The idea was to extend the existing Buxton - Piccadilly service westwards in the path of the TPE service from Piccadilly to Liverpool. No new trains needed, but a tidier set of "paths" in Manchester.

Here's another idea. What about:

* - TPE Scarborough - Liverpool diverted via Victoria/ Chat Moss
* - NR Manchester Airport - Liverpool diverted via Warrington (the way it used to run a few years ago)

So, Warrington gets its direct link to Manchester Airport back and you avoid conflicting movements at flat junctions in Manchester. Who's with me?

 

[gnolife]

The idea was to extend the existing Buxton - Piccadilly service westwards in the path of the TPE service from Piccadilly to Liverpool. No new trains needed, but a tidier set of "paths" in Manchester.

Here's another idea. What about:

* - TPE Scarborough - Liverpool diverted via Victoria/ Chat Moss
* - NR Manchester Airport - Liverpool diverted via Warrington (the way it used to run a few years ago)

So, Warrington gets its direct link to Manchester Airport back and you avoid conflicting movements at flat junctions in Manchester. Who's with me?

No insult meant, but is this some new definition of 'another'
As for the Buxton-Piccadilly extension to Liverpool, i think the Buxton - Manchester train then runs to Chester via Altrincham, so more stock would be necessary

 

[Gareth]

Well, you won't be convinced that Liverpool S Parkway is less significant than a 10min journey time saving for LDPE services to Liverpool, so I'm not going to try any more. So after this I won't be indulging you until you can provide some proper usage statistics for [stn]LPY[/stn] and how they have been affected by the TPE servce pattern changes.

I know where passengers for LPL airport come from, and considering all you're doing is saying that Liverpool is a big airport showing growth (witch it currently isn't on a 4 year MAA) and that people east of Warrington use the airport, yes, they do, but someone west of Warrington wanting to get there doesn't justify a direct service, plenty of people want to get directly from Blackburn to London but there isn't a direct service, threes a lot of passenger flows without direct services.

Lest not forget that the all stations services only take 10 minutes longer over the CLC to reach Liverpool S Parkway, and that if a concentrated commuter service was created, it would be much more appropriate for the contributions of Warrington, Birchwood, Irlam and everywhere else on the CLC lines.

Newcastle airport only has a stub on a metro system, that does just fine.

East Midlands Parkway is comparable to Liverpool S Parkway; nowhere near the airport, coach link to get there, and if you want to use that as an argument that EM Parkway gets better services, that sees 2tph, and hardly to a wide range of destinations. By that standard [stn]LPY[/stn] is very nicely served.

Throw a wobbler all you like. I don't need to go into a stat battle with you to justify Liverpool South Parkway. If there wasn't demand for it, firstly, it wouldn't have been built and secondly, no long distance services would stop there. The existence of Manchester Airport, nor the fact other airports have relatively poor connections is not justification for downgrading the station. Perhaps you should consider asking TPE why they choose to stop there - and EMT for that matter. I'm sure Merseytravel really argued the case on the station's behalf, but ultimately, if they didn't want to stop there, they wouldn't. Yes, LSP is very nicely served and that's how it should be.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm sure Merseytravel really argued the case on the station's behalf, but ultimately, if they didn't want to stop there, they wouldn't.

Actually they call their because the DfT tells them to in their franchise specifications. We don't actually know if TPE or EMT would call there if they didn't have to as part of their contracts.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Actually they call their because the DfT tells them to in their franchise specifications. We don't actually know if TPE or EMT would call their if they didn't have to as part of their contracts.

is there any way of finding out?

 

[ainsworth74]

is there any way of finding out?

You could ask them?

I don't actually know and I'm not sure they would tell you anyway as they would probably claim it was 'commercially sensitive' information.

 

[tbtc]

No insult meant, but is this some new definition of 'another'
As for the Buxton-Piccadilly extension to Liverpool, i think the Buxton - Manchester train then runs to Chester via Altrincham, so more stock would be necessary

Sorry, I'm a bit confused...

I was suggesting ways of replacing the TPE service from Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington/ John Lennon *if* the Scarborough - Liverpool is diverted via Chat Moss instead.

Since you didn't like the idea of extending the Buxton - Manchester service through to Liverpool, I was suggesting an alternative way of maintaining links.

 

[bluenoxid]

The idea was to extend the existing Buxton - Piccadilly service westwards in the path of the TPE service from Piccadilly to Liverpool. No new trains needed, but a tidier set of "paths" in Manchester.

Here's another idea. What about:

* - TPE Scarborough - Liverpool diverted via Victoria/ Chat Moss
* - NR Manchester Airport - Liverpool diverted via Warrington (the way it used to run a few years ago)

So, Warrington gets its direct link to Manchester Airport back and you avoid conflicting movements at flat junctions in Manchester. Who's with me?

Seems common sense to me. In fact it seems really good common sense to get the DMU out of the way of Manchester Picc but keep it in the correct location through the area. Another opportunity might be to send the train towards Chester via Altrincham, possibly only part way to meet passenger demand on this route. The final option is to drop it in Stockport and turn it there.

I can see this route sitting very uncomfortably once the North West electrification and Northern Hub is completed.

 

[tbtc]

Seems common sense to me. In fact it seems really good common sense to get the DMU out of the way of Manchester Picc but keep it in the correct location through the area. Another opportunity might be to send the train towards Chester via Altrincham, possibly only part way to meet passenger demand on this route. The final option is to drop it in Stockport and turn it there.

I can see this route sitting very uncomfortably once the North West electrification and Northern Hub is completed.

I wonder whether the Warrington route will be a "sore thumb" once the electrification is completed. It has a self contained half hourly stopper, as well as the two longer distance services, so would release a good few DMUs - hopefully the electrification will become a self-generating thing, where one line's completion encourages the business case for other lines to be added as well.

 

[bluenoxid]

It's frustrating but when you consider how it connects with the rest of the network, it will really sit as quite a diesel island particularly at the Manchester end. I hope that the Manchester end can handle an increase in services. Hopefully the existing project will roll on to keep knocking out some more lines (my Marple suburban project being a favourite of mine to get the Pacers really booted)

 

[Nym]

The idea was to extend the existing Buxton - Piccadilly service westwards in the path of the TPE service from Piccadilly to Liverpool. No new trains needed, but a tidier set of "paths" in Manchester.

Here's another idea. What about:

* - TPE Scarborough - Liverpool diverted via Victoria/ Chat Moss
* - NR Manchester Airport - Liverpool diverted via Warrington (the way it used to run a few years ago)

So, Warrington gets its direct link to Manchester Airport back and you avoid conflicting movements at flat junctions in Manchester. Who's with me?

Personally I'd say extending the Buxton service would be a better idea, as the Airport - Liverpool over the chat moss would be all electric. Buxton - Liverpool via CLC would prevent a terminating service on the slows in Manchester, give stockport a through service to Liverpool (another one), and keep diesel under wires to a minimum. And IIRC theres only two diesel terminators from the south that are run by northern.

Another possible alternative that wouldn't mean northen using more stock would be extending the XC Reading - Manchester via Stoke service to Liverpool, but that runs on the fasts and it would be preferable to pull off a slows terminator, and preferable that it already be diesel, so that leaves, Chester via Alt'ham and Buxton via Stockport. I'd say the best option would be Buxton, but it would be needed to be made sure it was run by either 156+156 or cascaded 170s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seems common sense to me. In fact it seems really good common sense to get the DMU out of the way of Manchester Picc but keep it in the correct location through the area. Another opportunity might be to send the train towards Chester via Altrincham, possibly only part way to meet passenger demand on this route. The final option is to drop it in Stockport and turn it there.

I can see this route sitting very uncomfortably once the North West electrification and Northern Hub is completed.

Another option I think I mentioned would be a 'centre road' turnback on the slows outside piccadilly, or using platforms 14 & 15 to turn around services.

The northern hub wants to have no slow line terminators at piccadilly at all, with all of them pushed through the station. Although I suspect some of the longer distance northern services will continue to terminate in 12 - 9

EDIT 1: Yes I ment to put Million passengers for airport numbers.

EDIT 2: The stock to cover the extra leg of Buxton - Manchester - Liverpool via Warrington Ctl would come from the 156s displaced from the current Manchester Airport - Liverpool run, thw whole idea of the wires on the chat moss is to displace diesel stock IIRC?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I suggest a Liverpool to Lincoln service which will be part of the South TPE remit. It would give direct links to both the Liverpool region and to the Greater Manchester area.

It would also have the benefit of good tourist potential for visitors from the North-West with a direct train service operated by Class 185 units, which would also give a better quality rolling stock on the existing Sheffield to Lincoln route.

 

[Gareth]

Actually they call their because the DfT tells them to in their franchise specifications. We don't actually know if TPE or EMT would call there if they didn't have to as part of their contracts.

Well, they haven't always called at LSP, so it can't have been included when the franchise contracts were originally drawn up. Indeed, TPE have only been calling there since December. I'm pretty sure the station is optional.

Even if so, if the DfT thinks it's important enough, then that's good enough for me.

 

[Nym]

Can I suggest a Liverpool to Lincoln service which will be part of the South TPE remit. It would give direct links to both the Liverpool region and to the Greater Manchester area.

It would also have the benefit of good tourist potential for visitors from the North-West with a direct train service operated by Class 185 units, which would also give a better quality rolling stock on the existing Sheffield to Lincoln route.

Theres onto two problems with that, for one the 185s are way too heavy, it could be run with their turbostars though. There also aint enough turbostars, the Hull - Manchester extention to Chester isn't nessesarry unless it's a requirement for Leeds - Warrington to have a direct service, and would only need 2 extra diagrams, Liverpool - Lincoln would be at least 8 diagrams to find.

Two, pathing, theres very little space in the hope valley at the moment, and the next path will proberbly be going to EMT for a more expressey Nottingham - Manchester service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Theres onto two problems with that, for one the 185s are way too heavy, it could be run with their turbostars though. There also aint enough turbostars, the Hull - Manchester extention to Chester isn't nessesarry unless it's a requirement for Leeds - Warrington to have a direct service, and would only need 2 extra diagrams, Liverpool - Lincoln would be at least 8 diagrams to find.

Two, pathing, theres very little space in the hope valley at the moment, and the next path will proberbly be going to EMT for a more expressey Nottingham - Manchester service.

I knew that I could count on you for a considered response. If the FAST Nottingham to Manchester service comes on line, what stations do you think will be scheduled for this service?

 

[Nym]

I knew that I could count on you for a considered response. If the FAST Nottingham to Manchester service comes on line, what stations do you think will be scheduled for this service?

At a guess, Piccadilly - Stockport - Chinley - Chesterfeild - Nottingham, or Piccadilly - Chinley (via Rominley) - Chesterfeild - Nottingham. I know Notts council wants it to use Dore South Curve to avoid sheffeild, but I don't know what route into Manchester it will end up taking, since the Network Rail Northern Hub plans call for two services via each route from Chinley into Manchester (from the hope valley). Chances are the through services will end up in Victoria and the terminating services in Piccadilly. But that all depends on availability of paths into Piccadilly and through Stockport. If it's less restrictive to go via. Romiley I'd expect more trains to be routed that way and into Victoria via either Philips Park Jcns (Quite slow) or via a reinstated curve at Guide Bridge onto Ashton Moss, but that would mean a much bigger layout at Guide Bridge, effectivly three lines in on the west, and two on the east, with two diverging within 4 miles, another option that could be explored for express services only would be a new curve from the Marple - Fairfeild direct line onto the Denton line, then directly onto Ashton Moss Jcn avoiding Guide Bridge all together, and it would be less 'junctioney' and using lines that could easily have higher linespeeds. That of course could be offset by upping linespeed on Philips Park Jcns where there is also more 4 track available.

 

[tbtc]

theres very little space in the hope valley at the moment, and the next path will proberbly be going to EMT for a more expressey Nottingham - Manchester service.

Would be good, as it'd free up a lot of seats for Sheffield passengers on existing services.

If that does happen (if) then there's scope to chop the Liverpool - Norwich service (or maybe have this new service replace it running Liverpool - Manchester - Chesterfield - Nottingham - Norwich), meaning you have Manchester - Sheffield and Sheffield - Nottingham services freed up.

The Manchester - Sheffield service has two logical extensions. Either on to the Sheffield - Hull - Scarborough service (providing two trains an hour from Manchester to Meadowhall/ Doncaster), or if there's stock spare extending it to Lincoln via Worksop.

The Nottingham - Sheffield service could either extend onto the Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds semi-fast (meaning a half hourly service from Leeds to Nottingham), or extend onto the Hull/Scarborough service (Nottingham doesn't have a direct service to Doncaster/ York and suffers poor connections as a result).

 

[YorkshireBear]

Would be good, as it'd free up a lot of seats for Sheffield passengers on existing services.

If that does happen (if) then there's scope to chop the Liverpool - Norwich service (or maybe have this new service replace it running Liverpool - Manchester - Chesterfield - Nottingham - Norwich), meaning you have Manchester - Sheffield and Sheffield - Nottingham services freed up.

The Manchester - Sheffield service has two logical extensions. Either on to the Sheffield - Hull - Scarborough service (providing two trains an hour from Manchester to Meadowhall/ Doncaster), or if there's stock spare extending it to Lincoln via Worksop.

The Nottingham - Sheffield service could either extend onto the Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds semi-fast (meaning a half hourly service from Leeds to Nottingham), or extend onto the Hull/Scarborough service (Nottingham doesn't have a direct service to Doncaster/ York and suffers poor connections as a result).

You loose the sheffield liverpool direct, while im not saying it should have one, does it need one?

 

[Nym]

The Nottingham - Sheffield service could either extend onto the Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds semi-fast (meaning a half hourly service from Leeds to Nottingham), or extend onto the Hull/Scarborough service (Nottingham doesn't have a direct service to Doncaster/ York and suffers poor connections as a result).

Of course if the Midland Mainline where electrified to Wakfeild and Doncaster, then the Sheffeild services can be extended to Leeds and York via Doncaster respectivly.

 

[tbtc]

You loose the sheffield liverpool direct, while im not saying it should have one, does it need one?

True, that would be a loss, but I could cope with it (if it meant more seats from Sheffield to Manchester)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course if the Midland Mainline where electrified to Wakfeild and Doncaster, then the Sheffeild services can be extended to Leeds and York via Doncaster respectivly.

You speak a lot of sense

 

[Nym]

You speak a lot of sense

Thanks... Even then, some pepole insist on saying that I don't...

 

[sulli_os]

You loose the sheffield liverpool direct, while im not saying it should have one, does it need one?

I used to travel Sheffield - Liverpool every weekend to visit my gf at university, so am familiar with this route.

Because of the state of EMT at the time, I always travelled on the xx12 Man Airport bound TPE service. This would arrive at Pic about 5 mins before a Scarborough - Liv TPE service, to which I was able to transfer.

So long as Shef - Manch trains are timed to link up with Liverpool bound trains from Man Pic (likewise the return journey), there isn't really a need for a direct service. It's the Shef - Manch section of the route that needs additional capacity.

 

[Striker]

True, that would be a loss, but I could cope with it (if it meant more seats from Sheffield to Manchester)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You speak a lot of sense

Thanks... Even then, some pepole insist on saying that I don't...

It's very easy to suggest things like "electrify the Midland Mainline", but where's the money going to come from? :roll:

Why end with that? There are lots of things that would be "nice to have" on the railways but train fantastists on an internet forum don't have the burden of cost upon them.

By the way, it's "----field" not "----feild".

 

[YorkshireBear]

I used to travel Sheffield - Liverpool every weekend to visit my gf at university, so am familiar with this route.

Because of the state of EMT at the time, I always travelled on the xx12 Man Airport bound TPE service. This would arrive at Pic about 5 mins before a Scarborough - Liv TPE service, to which I was able to transfer.

So long as Shef - Manch trains are timed to link up with Liverpool bound trains from Man Pic (likewise the return journey), there isn't really a need for a direct service. It's the Shef - Manch section of the route that needs additional capacity.

Aye i was guessing that if i had to pick. Thanks.

 

[northwichcat]

The service pattern I'd propose for the Altham line if it where converted back to heavy rail

Removal of trams from Altrincham altogether isn't something that will happen in the forseeable future.

However, a realistic option would be to stop producing new M500 trams then as more Metrolink lines open cascade the existing stock on the Altrincham line over to the new lines and order brand new tram-trains for Altrincham services. Replacing trams with tram-trains would allow heavy rail to run Altrincham-Sale-Deansgate again and allow the tram-trains or the normal trains to use either track through Navigation Road rather than be restricted to the one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's frustrating but when you consider how it connects with the rest of the network, it will really sit as quite a diesel island particularly at the Manchester end. I hope that the Manchester end can handle an increase in services. Hopefully the existing project will roll on to keep knocking out some more lines (my Marple suburban project being a favourite of mine to get the Pacers really booted)

Do you think that the Class 142 Pacers on your suburban project route will ever be allowed to go on as long as the Class 101 first-generation DMU units did?

On "YouTube" there are 3 seperate short videos, filmed from the front passenger seat, of a Class 101 unit making the journey from Marple to Manchester. The unit windscreen is not at all clean.

 

[sulli_os]

A suggestion I've made on another thread which would affect the Hope-Valley line (and tie in with suggestions for the Nor-Liv to use the Dore curve and miss out Sheffield) is this:

Turn the Sheffield-Manchester stopping service into two semi-fast services, one going non-stop through Derbyshire and then calling at all stations on the approach to Manchester, the other stopping at all stations in Derbyshire and then going non-stop into Manchester.

Not sure how the timings would work (and whether such a semi-fast service really would be semi-fast), but that could help to create an extra path along the line, and would actually improve Sheffield- Manchester connections whilst allowing Nor-Liv to be diverted.

 

[dfishw]

hi if there is another path granted between sheffield and manchester it should go to form a direct service between leicester/derby and manchester/north west. If this option is considered i think it should go to blackpool as it will give it a through service to southeast of manchester and to sheffield as well. I suspect there would be huge demand for this in summer!
There seems little point giving it to nottingham as it already has a through manchester service. I get the point about the route avoiding sheffield for a faster service but it would be unfair on other areas that dont have a direct manchester service at present. The only exception would be to create a TPE leicester/nottingham-glasgow service avoiding sheffield. Sheffield will already have a service to glasgow every two hours from monday so it wouldnt need to call there (though it could if there is demand for 4tph sheffield-manchester).
For going east im not sure where to send it. Hull already has a through service to manchester and so does cleethorpes. Skegness is a possibility though how that would work i have no idea. One place that seems to have been left out is rotherham a reasonable size city that has very poor service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

For going east im not sure where to send it. Hull already has a through service to manchester and so does cleethorpes. Skegness is a possibility though how that would work i have no idea. One place that seems to have been left out is rotherham a reasonable size city that has very poor service.

Rotheram i think gets a very raw deal. It may see 2tph but in some cases they are 5 minutes apart. Compared to barnsley and doncaster (relatively similar) it gets a very very raw deal. In the which tracks should be 4 tracks (or similar) thread recently i stated 4 tracking as much of sheffield swinton as possible to improve rotherams service. Problem for TPE is that it would lose alot of time going into rotheram so theres no benefit calling there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rotheram i think gets a very raw deal. It may see 2tph but in some cases they are 5 minutes apart. Compared to barnsley and doncaster (relatively similar) it gets a very very raw deal.

Bearing in mind the point about Rotherham being made and the current refurbishments being carried out at the station, the recent annual loading figures for Rotherham seem to suggest that it is deserving of better direct cross-Pennine links.

It is in a large industral region, unlike Lincoln which also suffers from poor rail transport links.