Future TPE Service Patterns (And LIV - NOR)

[VideozVideoz]

Someone suggested a Buxton to Liverpool, however, as far as I know, the only largish settlements on that line are New Mills and Buxton itself, and since New Mills currently gets 3 tph to Manchester (2 from Central, 1 from Newtown)

Buxton-Manchester used to be Buxton-Blackpool North which resulted in severe delays on this route for many years so they cut it back. I would not ever promote extending this route again due to the bottleneck between Piccadilly-Deansgate.

No insult meant, but is this some new definition of 'another'
As for the Buxton-Piccadilly extension to Liverpool, i think the Buxton - Manchester train then runs to Chester via Altrincham, so more stock would be necessary

Are you sure about Bux-Man trains then running to Chester? I thought the Chester stopper were Pacer trains whereas Bux-Man are always sprinters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Someone suggested a Buxton to Liverpool, however, as far as I know, the only largish settlements on that line are New Mills and Buxton itself.
(P.S. Im sorry if this all seems a little incoherent)

The only largish settlements from Buxton to Liverpool are New Mills and Buxton? Well, that is bad news for the people who live in:-

Hazel Grove
Stockport
Manchester
Warrington
Widnes
Liverpool

Has there been a most dramatic fall in the population of these areas?:cry::cry:

Still, you qualified what you said by your footnote in brackets.

 

[Nym]

And not to point out aswell the capacity gains by all services on the slows being pushed through piccadilly to somwhere else.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since this thread is about "Liverpool" and trans-Pennine routes, how about:-

Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester - Sheffield - Doncaster.

These are not the stops...only the route. All the five stations named above are important railway towns/cities in their own right with heavy passenger loadings. Doncaster, of course, has a link with a very important line.

One station that could be on this line, when all the major refurbishment works are completed, that has a very large passenger loadings, is Rotherham.

 

[Nym]

But full, the hope valley is, unless you divert Cleethorpes - Airport to Liverpool via Warrington?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But full, the hope valley is, unless you divert Cleethorpes - Airport to Liverpool via Warrington?

You read my mind perfectly on this matter,

I thought when I made that particular posting, it would be like an angler putting a juicy worm on his hook, casting in and waiting for a catch.

I knew that you would be unable to resist the need to answer it.

I like the poetic way that you started your answer as Yoda did in Star Wars..

 

[Nym]

Come on, you should know by now I'm the voice of the engineer with good sense....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Come on, you should know by now I'm the voice of the engineer with good sense....

...".and who has never had anyone say that any of his ideas are stupid!"

I am beginning to know your script off by heart, now,

Sometimes, you are like Don Quixote....tilting against windmills.


This is going to turn into a :roll:"FOUR CANDLES" sketch:roll:

 

[Nym]

Well, it could work, keep the same stock on the route, and a similar path if I remember my trains off piccadilly right, but sheffeild would loose it's airport link, aswell as Stockport...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like you, I too have ideas that evoke a response that I did not seek when making any posting. Perhaps the Liverpool to Doncaster route may be more feasible when electrification of the Lancashire triangle is completed and there would then be Class 185 units available to run my proposed service, which I would see as ADDITIONAL to the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service, leaving no change to the present Manchester Airport availability offered to Sheffield and Doncaster. If works to improve matters via the Hope Valley were carried out to give a 21st century railway infrastructure in that particular area, surely it is possible to see an improvement in the number of available paths through this route.

If, at any time, the Woodhead tunnel would be reopened, and electrfication extended through (which strange to say was the case before closure) to Sheffield and then on to Doncaster, there would be an electrified link between to WCML and the ECML which would be a strategic asset. This does not mean lessening the case for electrifying the route across the Pennines, via Huddersfield, but should be viewed as additional to it.

 

[Nym]

Of course, but if the Woodhead route was re-opened and 25KV electrified, it would ceriously demote the Hope Valley line.

If all the expresses ran via the Woodhead Route (one would assume this to be desirable), it would result in no services for Stockport, and all through services to Liverpool being sent via Victoria. Also a bit of a no no if the Warrington Central & [stn]LPY[/stn] group are to be listened to.

It would all depend on journey times across the pennines and if the Midland Mainline where electrified.

I'll invite opinions on journey times and patterns, with a due sense of dread. Also on what route east of Sheffeild Victoria to be taken.

But work on the following assumption of pathing (to allow freight enough space)

Piccadilly East - Glossop stoppers 3tph (as current)
Philips Park Jcns (From either Piccadilly or Victoria, we're not going to cross any paths on piccadilly so through services must be routed to victoria) - Glossop fast paths 3tph.

With 4 track between Philips Park and Guide Bridge this could be increased to 4tph each. With 2tph stoppers being extended as stoppers to Sheffeild Victoria, Doncaster or Barnsley via Penistone.

Possibilities for extra paths may be available.

Chinley - Dore 1tph express, 1tph all stations, and all relevant freight. More capacity could come later. But this could end up being used for re-opening of Matlock - Buxton.

So ideas?

 

[northwichcat]

Are you sure about Bux-Man trains then running to Chester? I thought the Chester stopper were Pacer trains whereas Bux-Man are always sprinters.

You're right that for standard pattern that Buxton and Chester trains don't mix. However, at peak times there is interworking. For instance, the 15:07 Chester to Manchester (booked 4 car 150) works a Buxton service next, while the 17:09 Manchester to Chester is a 142 which arrives at Piccadilly from Newton Heath with 3 other 142s for extra peak time capacity.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Of course, but if the Woodhead route was re-opened and 25KV electrified, it would ceriously demote the Hope Valley line.

If all the expresses ran via the Woodhead Route (one would assume this to be desirable), it would result in no services for Stockport, and all through services to Liverpool being sent via Victoria. Also a bit of a no no if the Warrington Central & [stn]LPY[/stn] group are to be listened to.

It would all depend on journey times across the pennines and if the Midland Mainline where electrified.

I'll invite opinions on journey times and patterns, with a due sense of dread. Also on what route east of Sheffeild Victoria to be taken.

But work on the following assumption of pathing (to allow freight enough space)

Piccadilly East - Glossop stoppers 3tph (as current)
Philips Park Jcns (From either Piccadilly or Victoria, we're not going to cross any paths on piccadilly so through services must be routed to Victoria) - Glossop fast paths 3tph.

With 4 track between Philips Park and Guide Bridge this could be increased to 4tph each. With 2tph stoppers being extended as stoppers to Sheffeild Victoria, Doncaster or Barnsley via Penistone.

Possibilities for extra paths may be available.

Chinley - Dore 1tph express, 1tph all stations, and all relevant freight. More capacity could come later. But this could end up being used for re-opening of Matlock - Buxton.

So ideas?

Woodhead reopening its what seems is going to be neccesary one day.

Im currently training to be a civil engineer and would love it one day if i was involved in that

Service patterns sound good but like you say alot of infrastructure in manchester to allow for it would be needed.
Also victoria needs redoing as it isnt quite in the centre of sheffield atm

 

[tbtc]

Woodhead reopening its what seems is going to be neccesary one day.

Im currently training to be a civil engineer and would love it one day if i was involved in that

Service patterns sound good but like you say alot of infrastructure in manchester to allow for it would be needed.
Also victoria needs redoing as it isnt quite in the centre of sheffield atm

It'd be easier not to build a station on the old Victoria site and instead build one adjacent to the Supertram Park & Ride at Nunnery Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/4548176376/).

However the tram to Meadowhall means there's only one line from the Victoria - Darnall line to Rotherham (which limits the service pattern you could put through the Woodhead line).

 

[YorkshireBear]

It'd be easier not to build a station on the old Victoria site and instead build one adjacent to the Supertram Park & Ride at Nunnery Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/4548176376/).

However the tram to Meadowhall means there's only one line from the Victoria - Darnall line to Rotherham (which limits the service pattern you could put through the Woodhead line).

Ah there would have to be some pretty major civil engineering to get through services off the woodhead towards donaster etc. I agree about where to put station, you could form into a kind of out of city station with the tram link (maybe a new bay platform for trams at the station) to the city centre.

Although when you add this station in you could terminate the lincoln services there or the stocksbridge services( which i would hope form from reopening of woodhead) maybe huddersfield semi fasts?. Maybe make more use of the line to rotheram and at the same time freeing up capacity towards meadowhall.

Doable but will need a bit of work and clever planning.

Lets face it if the line got built it would get used very heavily like it did back then. Especially if you combine it with work on surrounding lines to allow intermodal freight etc.

tis but a dream

 

[tbtc]

Ah there would have to be some pretty major civil engineering to get through services off the woodhead towards donaster etc. I agree about where to put station, you could form into a kind of out of city station with the tram link (maybe a new bay platform for trams at the station) to the city centre.

Although when you add this station in you could terminate the lincoln services there or the stocksbridge services( which i would hope form from reopening of woodhead) maybe huddersfield semi fasts?. Maybe make more use of the line to rotheram and at the same time freeing up capacity towards meadowhall.

Doable but will need a bit of work and clever planning.

Lets face it if the line got built it would get used very heavily like it did back then. Especially if you combine it with work on surrounding lines to allow intermodal freight etc.

tis but a dream

There are a lot of problems with opening Woodhead...

1. The confusion of having more than one station in Sheffield with no direct rail link (if built on the old Victoria site)
2. Some places having Sheffield trains from more than one station
3. Any new station would be a long walk from the centre of the city
4. Single track line from the Victoria line to Rotherham/ Doncaster/ Leeds lines
5. Would it free up much capacity at Midland?
6. Is there space for a Stocksbridge service/ local stations on the Upper Don Valley?

1. Unavoidable that there would be two stations (you can't reverse everything down into Midland). However building it at Nunnery Square allows for a direct train between the two and easy interchange to the Supertram right into the heart of the city (as well as ensuring that the new station has decent parking)
2. Ideally I'd like to minimise this (e.g. all Manchester services, all Lincoln services, all Huddersfield services serve the Nunnery Square station). However this leaves an imbalance of services from the west, so Nunnery Square would need to take over some eastern routes.
3. No easy way round the single track round the back of the Arena, unless you put a chord in around Woodhouse to allow services to run Nunnery Square - Darnall - Catcliffe
4. Potentially it'd free up one service at the north end of Midland (the Lincoln one) and two at the south end (the two fast Manchester services)
5. Any line would probably be two tracks only, which would limit space for local services. Plus the line isn't close to many areas of population (not that close to the population areas at Deepcar/ Oughtabirdge/ Wadsley Bridge/ Neepsend

My thinking being that you'd:

Replace the Huddersfield - Sheffield service with

Huddersfield - Penistone - Nunnery Square
Penistone - Barnsley - Midland

Run one of the Manchester services to Lincoln

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are a lot of problems with opening Woodhead...

My thinking being that you'd:-

Run one of the Manchester services to Lincoln

Another convert to the cause!!!

 

[tbtc]

Another convert to the cause!!!

If the service comes through Penistone and Deepcar then Lincoln is a no-brainer.

The trouble with (re)opening Woodhead is where (east of Sheffield) you send the other services from Manchester/Huddersfield that come this route.

 

[Nym]

Lay some shiney new track to Rotherham / The ECML for Doncaster?

 

[tbtc]

Lay some shiney new track to Rotherham / The ECML for Doncaster?

Ideally, but the old two track line from Sheffield Victoria to Rotherham (round the back of Sheffield Arena etc) was squeezed down to single track when the tram was built (http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5263343292/), similar to what happened to the Robin Hood line at Hucknall.

As the railway lies between the tram and the canal, I'm not sure there'd be space for double track (unless you do something bigger, like divert through the old Tinsley yard)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As the railway lies between the tram and the canal, I'm not sure there'd be space for double track (unless you do something bigger, like divert through the old Tinsley yard)

You have made an interesting alternative here, by bringing the Tinsley yard into the equation. If this was a feasible proposition, how would you see future developments progressing?

(P.S. Sorry about taking your quote out of context about a Manchester to Lincoln service....this was down to my injudicial editing of one of your earlier postings).

 

[tbtc]

You have made an interesting alternative here, by bringing the Tinsley yard into the equation. If this was a feasible proposition, how would you see future developments progressing?

(P.S. Sorry about taking your quote out of context about a Manchester to Lincoln service....this was down to my injudicial editing of one of your earlier postings).

Well, that's a whole can of worms. Logically Tinsley Yard (close to M1, fairly close to central Sheffield/ Rotherham/ Meadowhall, easy for Supertram extension, sitting by the Rother Valley which is the fastest/easiest way in this neck of the woods from Chesterfield and the East Midlands to Leeds/ North) would be a good site for a proposed HS2 "Parkway" station.

Unlike Manchester/ Leeds, Sheffield isn't due to get a "central" HS2 station, but may get a "Parkway" stop. Where better than Tinsley?

However, looking at maps, I'm struggling to find a way of putting a second "heavy rail" line alongside the single track that runs from Sheffield Victoria to Rotherham (around the back of Sheffield Arena), due to the proximity of the tram tracks and the canal. A shame, as a double track route to the north would enhance the case for reopening the Woodhead line.

 

[Eagle]

The trouble with (re)opening Woodhead is where (east of Sheffield) you send the other services from Manchester/Huddersfield that come this route.

Reopen the GCML to Nottingham, Leicester and so on?

Rather less crazy than the way they'd've used Woodhead to run the M67 through. The big tunnel double deck with a height restriction of about 12 feet, and the other two as one carriageway each for tall vehicles. Truly inspired madness.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well, that's a whole can of worms. Logically Tinsley Yard (close to M1, fairly close to central Sheffield/ Rotherham/ Meadowhall, easy for Supertram extension, sitting by the Rother Valley which is the fastest/easiest way in this neck of the woods from Chesterfield and the East Midlands to Leeds/ North) would be a good site for a proposed HS2 "Parkway" station.

Unlike Manchester/ Leeds, Sheffield isn't due to get a "central" HS2 station, but may get a "Parkway" stop. Where better than Tinsley?

However, looking at maps, I'm struggling to find a way of putting a second "heavy rail" line alongside the single track that runs from Sheffield Victoria to Rotherham (around the back of Sheffield Arena), due to the proximity of the tram tracks and the canal. A shame, as a double track route to the north would enhance the case for reopening the Woodhead line.

do we still have the new sheffield international freight terminal in that neck of the woods? which as far as i am aware doesnt get regular trafic?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reopen the GCML to Nottingham, Leicester and so on?

Rather less crazy than the way they'd've used Woodhead to run the M67 through. The big tunnel double deck with a height restriction of about 12 feet, and the other two as one carriageway each for tall vehicles. Truly inspired madness.

Intersting observation on the Woodhead tunnel which does pose some questions. The age of this tunnel compares extremely favourably in terms of structural infrastructure that currently exist compared to the tunnels under the Pennines on the Calder Valley line and the Huddersfield line.

 

[Nym]

Woodhead is significantly less colapsey then the closed Sandledge Tunnels, and less melted than Summit Tunnel yes...

 

[Jonny]

Woodhead is significantly less colapsey then the closed Sandledge Tunnels, and less melted than Summit Tunnel yes...

Am I right in thinking that the Standedge tunnel straddles a geological fault?

Edit: it seems it does, and Railtrack were bothered enough to do this:
http://www.itmsoil.com/pages/standedge+tunnel+marsden

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does the DfT have any opinion on the use of the Woodhead tunnel for any future rail useage or is it seen as a road asset?

 

[Nym]

To be honest I think it needs both, but Woodhead Pass nowerdays would be happy with D2AP-PS Spec rather than D2/D3M as was intended for the M67, but it needs to bypass all the villages and be D2AP all the way from the M67 (that should finish further into high peak, and further into Manchester) all te way to the M1.

Woodhead Rail tunnels should be used for Rail, I don't think they have future as road tunnels as ther're just not big enough, if there is to be a step diference in the use of Woodhead Pass it needs to be comparable to the A66 (As it serves a smiliar purpouse), that being D2AP (or shortly to become) D2AP throughout, from Scotch Corner to Penrith, and the remainder to the coast is S2WAP and D2AP at Keswick and Cockermouth Bypasses.

To be honest the M67 is dead as an idea, the SEMMS project is nearly dead, the M62 ORR Project is pretty dead, and as for finishing the M602, Manchester & Salford Ring Road, Princess Parkway Motorway and the M601, the're all dead, no-one would dare build the M601 now, no matter how much it's needed.

The best we can hope for now, and even this won't happen, would the the widening and upgrading of selected routes into Manchester, considering we're down to three high quality roads into Manchester CC now they ruined the A6..

That is the A5103, M602/A57 and A56. And even all of these aren't big enough and are gridlock in rush hour. We need the M601, A663M extention, M67 Extention and Pricess Parkway Motorway...

Not to mention the Hardy Lane Extention that was impossible for a road, but is somhow now possible for metrolink!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just going back to the Liverpool to Manchester section of this route once it is electrified. Would the northern Manchester-facing part of Lowton Junction and the short line link to Golborne Junction have any use in offering another Manchester link to the WCML that could be used for services northwards in the case of post-electrification engineering work on the Manchester - Bolton- Preston line?