Future services for Liverpool Lime Street?

[Merseysider]

Yes probably, but lots of people in the NorthWest would catch a morning flight out of Gatwick if it were convenient to reach in that way.
Maybe stop at Crewe, Birmingham, London (Kensington?) along the way.

I can't see that many people opting for an overnight train from Liverpool - Gatwick over a hotel when it only takes 3 hours to get there during the day by rail, and Manchester has frequent connecting flights to London for long haul passengers travelling via the capital.

 

[fowler9]

Yes probably, but lots of people in the NorthWest would catch a morning flight out of Gatwick if it were convenient to reach in that way.
Maybe stop at Crewe, Birmingham, London (Kensington?) along the way.

Not many places you can get to from Gatwick you can't get to from Manchester, in fact I think Manchester may have several destinations you can't get to from Gatwick.

 

[PR1Berske]

Yes probably, but lots of people in the NorthWest would catch a morning flight out of Gatwick if it were convenient to reach in that way.
Maybe stop at Crewe, Birmingham, London (Kensington?) along the way.

There's little Gatwick offers NW travellers not already available at Manchester. I can't see why Liverpool, of all places, needs a direct link to such an arbitrary destination.

 

[swt_passenger]

Whenever these threads start it is only a few posts before the question of restoring Liverpool's axed XC servcies comes up.

Given that the combined actions of DFT, Network Rail and various TOC owners over at least a ten year period have decided the routes are not essential, why is the subject always on the back burner?

 

[atillathehunn]

So to be clear, instead of going from
Lime Street to Euston (2 hours)
Euston - St Pancras (10 mins)
St Pancras - Brussels (3 hours including a way above average check-in time)

You propose I go:

Lime Street - Ashford 5 hours 40 (Given it's 2 hours to the West London Line Junction, an hour trundle round the edge of London, another 100 minutes or to Ashford and 45 mins to check in at the smaller station)
Ashford - Brussels 90 minutes

Thanks, but no thanks.

As for the sleeper to Gatwick.... No. I'll take the car the night before or the train the day before and stay in a cheap hotel. If Gatwick was picking up big numbers of Manchester passengers there would be a flight option.

And as someone else said, if you're connecting through London it's likely Heathrow, and Manchester airport has a pretty spectacular range of destinations for a regional airport.

 

[fowler9]

So to be clear, instead of going from
Lime Street to Euston (2 hours)
Euston - St Pancras (10 mins)
St Pancras - Brussels (3 hours including a way above average check-in time)

You propose I go:

Lime Street - Ashford 5 hours 40 (Given it's 2 hours to the West London Line Junction, an hour trundle round the edge of London, another 100 minutes or to Ashford and 45 mins to check in at the smaller station)
Ashford - Brussels 90 minutes

Thanks, but no thanks.

As for the sleeper to Gatwick.... No. I'll take the car the night before or the train the day before and stay in a cheap hotel. If Gatwick was picking up big numbers of Manchester passengers there would be a flight option.

And as someone else said, if you're connecting through London it's likely Heathrow, and Manchester airport has a pretty spectacular range of destinations for a regional airport.

Yeah. Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Hainan, Singapore and others all fly from Manchester, some of them multiple times a day. No need to go to London when I can get the train to Manchester from Liverpool. In some cases it is easier to fly to Amsterdam, Paris or Madrid from Liverpool.

 

[Nean]

So to be clear, instead of going from
Lime Street to Euston (2 hours)
Euston - St Pancras (10 mins)
St Pancras - Brussels (3 hours including a way above average check-in time)

You propose I go:

Lime Street - Ashford 5 hours 40 (Given it's 2 hours to the West London Line Junction, an hour trundle round the edge of London, another 100 minutes or to Ashford and 45 mins to check in at the smaller station)
Ashford - Brussels 90 minutes

Thanks, but no thanks.

As for the sleeper to Gatwick.... No. I'll take the car the night before or the train the day before and stay in a cheap hotel. If Gatwick was picking up big numbers of Manchester passengers there would be a flight option.

And as someone else said, if you're connecting through London it's likely Heathrow, and Manchester airport has a pretty spectacular range of destinations for a regional airport.

And then compared to getting an express to Manchester Airport and one of the multiple (I think it was 2 to Zavantem, 1 to Charleroi last I checked?) flights it's even more nonsensical...

 

[atillathehunn]

3 to Zaventem (I think - early morning, about 10 and evening) and 2 most days to Charleroi (I think numbers are down a little bit with the strikes, but the general pattern is such.

For whatever reason you may prefer the train (I do, when I'm relocating longer term) and I can absolutely assure you I'm not faffing around with a XC service to the a**e-end of Kent.

 

[HowardGWR]

It should also be remembered that, even to Heathrow, only 10% of HS2 pax will be airport bound. Thus how many pax could be expected to travel to Kent for ES?

 

[atillathehunn]

Maximum 10% especially if Manchester keeps adding more flights to more destinations.

An absolutely mad proposal. No benefit to anybody, offers absolutely nothing.

 

[frodshamfella]

An overnight train to Gatwick (and Brighton), leaving Liverpool around 11pm, arriving at Gatwick Airport early in the morning would attract more customers. Return train leaving Gatwick in the early afternoon.
Not sure what stops would be best, fine tune that as demand is discovered.

I can't see there being much demand. Manchester Airport lost their link to Gatwick some years ago, presumably because it didn't offer much connection wise for NW air passengers. With Liverpool and Manchester both having airports with numerous destinations, I think most passengers would choose to fly more locally.

 

[frodshamfella]

Cardiff and Bristol would be two destinations I'd suggest, maybe Exeter too.

 

[atillathehunn]

I can't see there being much demand. Manchester Airport lost their link to Gatwick some years ago, presumably because it didn't offer much connection wise for NW air passengers. With Liverpool and Manchester both having airports with numerous destinations, I think most passengers would choose to fly more locally.

I can see there being absolutely no demand. Gatwick is not particularly a connections airport. And an overnight train?! It's a leisure airport - you travel down the afternoon before.

 

[paulcleaver]

I know nowt, so I apologise for this, but a direct service from Leicester to the NW/Manchester/Liverpool area would be appreciated, instead of having to blinking change at Brum or Sheffield all the time.

Given we're already served by XC here, would a Liverpool-Manc Airport-Manc-Shef-Leicester-Stansted direct route be feasible/financially viable, linking the airports and The UK's 2nd, 6th, 10th & 13th biggest urban areas?

 

[Nean]

I know nowt, so I apologise for this, but a direct service from Leicester to the NW/Manchester/Liverpool area would be appreciated, instead of having to blinking change at Brum or Sheffield all the time.

Given we're already served by XC here, would a Liverpool-Manc Airport-Manc-Shef-Leicester-Stansted direct route be feasible/financially viable, linking the airports and The UK's 2nd, 6th, 10th & 13th biggest urban areas?

Probably not as you'd have to either go through Piccadilly twice or reverse at Crewe and then reverse at Picc to get from Liverpool to Sheffield... Cutting out Manc Airport solves that problem though.

As for feasibility, the Liverpool-Nottingham/Norwich already soaks up most of the flow to the East Midlands (and getting another service through the Deansgate Viaduct is near impossible without Piccadilly 15 & 16).

If you're wanting Stansted/Southeast Midlands connectivity then personally I'd route a service Liverpool-Crewe-Derby-Leicester-Peterboro-Cambridge-Stansted... I believe that's possible from a routeing standpoint and also gets more of the areas currently untouched by direct services

 

[driver_m]

Maybe the question that should be asked as what places themselves would be wanting a connection to Liverpool. Already now the stag/hen do capital of the country judging by the passengers coming through Lime St. For me it should be North Wales through to Bangor seeing as North Wales has had historical connections and a large 'scouse expat' population over there. The second one should be a Cardiff link via the Marches and restore a summer service to Devon/Cornwall similar to that of Manchester's Newquay service.

 

[paulcleaver]

I take your points about reversing, the Deansgate Tunnel and the EMT Liv-NG service taking up the flow.

It just gets a bit frustrating that the furthest by direct train that you can go is 1 hour north to Sheffield (ex the odd train to Leeds & York at strange times), west to Brum or south to London and 2 hrs east to Stansted. Anywhere further afield and you've got to change. Connections are good I will grant you, but I envy Liverpool's direct routes.

 

[fowler9]

A direct link to Leicester would be handy since my brother lives there.

 

[Bevan Price]

XC are not supposed to "care" about Liverpool, they operate the services the DfT tells them to.
The "DfT" (Opraf/SRA at the time) decided to cut Liverpool (and Blackpool, Portsmouth and other places) from the XC network, so that the "core" service was more efficient/reliable.
Things like the West Coast upgrade and Birmingham New St congestion played a part in this.
With no new stock since the Voyagers, the XC situation is unchanged today.
Arguably the 2tph electric Liverpool-Birmingham is better than anything XC would have offered.

Cutting north-west/south-west trains other than Manchester-Bristol was another SRA decision, with Scotland-Preston-Birmingham going to VTWC.
Liverpool also lost the occasional Marches route service to Cardiff, with all W&B trains sent to Manchester.
Ultimately, the reason was the horrendous losses on the XC network.
We'll have to see what gets proposed in the 2019 re-franchising, now that XC seems to have reached break-even.

Yes Liverpool is unlikely to return to a XC-like network whilst we have the crazy franchise system, and the shower in DfT deciding what services places are allowed to have, and limiting most scope for innovation or experimentation. . And with an incompetent government stopping many electrification projects, that blocks the option for emus running beyond current electrified lines.

I think Liverpool would benefit if it could have through services to Oxford / Reading (or even Southampton), and also to Bristol / Cardiff. Had the lines been electrified, Liverpool portions could have been coupled to Manchester portions south/west of Birmingham; not necessarily hourly , but maybe every 2 to 3 hours to each destination beyond Birmingham. Instead, the only option remains to connect into the inadequate (too small) Voyagers for journeys beyond Birmingham.

Incidentally, for a while, the (Regional Railways) Liverpool - Cardiff services were roughly every 2 hourly, before being reduced to 2 per day, and then withdrawn completely.

 

[Mathew S]

Liverpool has direct services to:

• Norwich
• Newcastle
• Manchester
• York
• Sheffield
• Scarborough
• Birmingham
• London
• Glasgow (soon)
• Edinburgh (soon)
• Chester
• Leeds
• Nottingham
• Norwich
• Preston
• and probably many other places I've forgotten

I can't think of many places then in the whole of the UK that passengers from Lime Street can't access with a single change of train at one of those stations, or Crewe.

Direct services are nice to have, of course, but are we really saying that a single change of train on a long distance trip is unreasonable? It seems to me that there are some people who think that every major station should be connected to everywhere in the country with a direct train service, which seems, to me, to be remarkably naive.

 

[fowler9]

Liverpool has direct services to:

• Norwich
• Newcastle
• Manchester
• York
• Sheffield
• Scarborough
• Birmingham
• London
• Glasgow (soon)
• Edinburgh (soon)
• Chester
• Leeds
• Nottingham
• Norwich
• Preston
• and probably many other places I've forgotten

I can't think of many places then in the whole of the UK that passengers from Lime Street can't access with a single change of train at one of those stations, or Crewe.

Direct services are nice to have, of course, but are we really saying that a single change of train on a long distance trip is unreasonable? It seems to me that there are some people who think that every major station should be connected to everywhere in the country with a direct train service, which seems, to me, to be remarkably naive.

You are spot on. It would be better if the ones through Birmingham weren't 3+2.

 

[Mathew S]

You are spot on. It would be better if the ones through Birmingham weren't 3+2.

Absolutely. There are plenty of improvements that could be made to the services that do exist (longer trains, better catering... I could go on all day) but when almost everyone can get to almost anywhere with just one, or at the most two, changes I really don't see what the issue is.

If we really want to improve services in the North West, let's concentrate on adding to some of the Northern services that finish running idiotically early (eg. Kirkby - Wigan, which effectively shuts down after ~6.30pm, or ~5.30pm if you're travelling back from Manchester). That way we can make the railway accessible to more people, and get them out of their cars.

 

[PR1Berske]

Liverpool has direct services to:

• Norwich
• Newcastle
• Manchester
• York
• Sheffield
• Scarborough
• Birmingham
• London
• Glasgow (soon)
• Edinburgh (soon)
• Chester
• Leeds
• Nottingham
• Norwich
• Preston
• and probably many other places I've forgotten

I can't think of many places then in the whole of the UK that passengers from Lime Street can't access with a single change of train at one of those stations, or Crewe.

Direct services are nice to have, of course, but are we really saying that a single change of train on a long distance trip is unreasonable? It seems to me that there are some people who think that every major station should be connected to everywhere in the country with a direct train service, which seems, to me, to be remarkably naive.

I think it's true that the forum has a section of users who have a bias towards direct services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's true that the forum has a section of users who have a bias towards direct services.

So, by and large, do passengers.

 

[PR1Berske]

So, by and large, do passengers.

Oh absolutely, and I understand why. But there are practical reasons why direct trains are simply impractical. Liverpool to Gatwick being one of them

 

[Mathew S]

So, by and large, do passengers.

Of course, I'm not saying they don't. But we can never have direct services from everywhere people are to everywhere they want to go. The very nature of public transport is that it's never going to work like that, and nor should it.
Liverpool does pretty well for direct services to most parts of the country, and if passengers are having problems making a single connection in their journey then I'd suggest that's a problem with the passenger, not the service, and a circumstance where 'Passenger Assist' might come into play.

 

[PR1Berske]

I've just realised that I've typed "practical reasons.....are impractical" . Oh dear.

 

[Mathew S]

I've just realised that I've typed "practical reasons.....are impractical" . Oh dear.

It's Sunday evening... Hahaha

 

[paulcleaver]

How do fares on direct service trains compare to journeys where customers have to change? Are they more expensive, about the same or hard to tell?

I'm conscious that on my Liverpool to Leicester example, the walk up fares for that journey are set by a TOC, who I need not use for any part of that journey.

 

[Mathew S]

How do fares on direct service trains compare to journeys where customers have to change? Are they more expensive, about the same or hard to tell?

I'm conscious that on my Liverpool to Leicester example, the walk up fares for that journey are set by a TOC, who I need not use for any part of that journey.

In my experience, journeys which use multiple TOCs and/or connections are often good candidates for split ticketing to save money.

Wigan-Newport splitting at Crewe is a common one of mine using VTWC and ATW. The direct ticket is priced for VTWC to Birmingham and then XC via Cheltenham; so splitting at Crewe and travelling via Shrewsbury is much cheaper.