Future services for Liverpool Lime Street?

[ParleLover]

Liverpool Lime Street is set to go under major refurbishment work next year with at least 6 months of engineering work taking place.

I was wondering what new services could we expect in the future?

I know there will be the TP service to Scotland in 2019/2020

I reckon there will be a Arriva service from Liv. Lime Street to Wrexham General (via chester & Halton Curve (after work redoing Halton Curve has been completed)).

I know years ago there was a service direct to Penzance, any ideas if this service will eventually be reintroduced?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A direct service to Bolton, Bury, Rochdale mirroring the one that used to run from Exchange would provide a number of useful links. Would be a bit difficult to run it to Lime Street mind.

 

[Mathew S]

A direct service to Bolton, Bury, Rochdale mirroring the one that used to run from Exchange would provide a number of useful links. Would be a bit difficult to run it to Lime Street mind.

Very difficult indeed, there being no station in Bury

On a serious note, through services to Rochdale could theoretically run as extensions of the current Victoria services. But I'm not sure what the point would be and doubt there's capacity West of Manchester to do it.

To get from Lime Street to Bolton direct would be even more of a pain in the backside, reversing at Wigan NW and crossing the WCML. It would mess with the soon to be upgraded Wigan - Manchester timetable too.

Can't see it happening myself, especially since its not a franchise commitment.

 

[MG11]

I definitely think XC would find it lucrative, perhaps if they did a Liverpool - Margate service, calling at Ashford to link with Eurostar services. If it went the Nuneaton way, it would give people travelling from Nuneaton another destination with a direct service. Alas though, XC don't have the rolling stock and really only focus on their core network.

 

[AlterEgo]

I definitely think XC would find it lucrative, perhaps if they did a Liverpool - Margate service, calling at Ashford to link with Eurostar services. If it went the Nuneaton way, it would give people travelling from Nuneaton another destination with a direct service. Alas though, XC don't have the rolling stock and really only focus on their core network.

Strikes me as classic Crayonista. Why would people in Nuneaton or Liverpool want to trundle the slow way down to Ashford to connect with the pretty small number of Eurostars that actually stop there, when they (and in fact most of the places that train would pass through) already have good connections via London, where all Eurostars stop?

I’m sure the people of Nuneaton would be delighted with Margate as a new destination (!)

 

[MG11]

Strikes me as classic Crayonista. Why would people in Nuneaton or Liverpool want to trundle the slow way down to Ashford to connect with the pretty small number of Eurostars that actually stop there, when they (and in fact most of the places that train would pass through) already have good connections via London, where all Eurostars stop?

I’m sure the people of Nuneaton would be delighted with Margate as a new destination (!)

Not Crayonista at all, XC did used to serve the South East, and CrossCountry as a company being acknowledged by the people of Liverpool can mean their greater network is more noticed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not Crayonista at all, XC did used to serve the South East, and CrossCountry as a company being acknowledged by the people of Liverpool can mean their greater network is more noticed.

XC haven’t ever gone anywhere near Margate. Routes will survive based on whether they serve a business need. As far as I can see Liverpool to Margate is a bonkers route which would be slow, and provide no real value. I don’t understand how you think it’ll work.

 

[MG11]

XC haven’t ever gone anywhere near Margate. Routes will survive based on whether they serve a business need. As far as I can see Liverpool to Margate is a bonkers route which would be slow, and provide no real value. I don’t understand how you think it’ll work.

It would provide a link between the north west and the eastern part of the West Midlands, Liverpool seems to be good for nights out etc., Ashford is a great way to connect to the Eurostar, whilst avoiding the dazzles of central London, and Margate is an area that the government is keem to re-generate.

 

[whhistle]

But going via London from Nuneaton isn't hard to connect to Eurostar, nor scary.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would provide a link between the north west and the eastern part of the West Midlands, Liverpool seems to be good for nights out etc., Ashford is a great way to connect to the Eurostar, whilst avoiding the dazzles of central London, and Margate is an area that the government is keem to re-generate.

Ashford is not a great way to connect to the Eurostar, as a glance at the timetable suggests. https://www.eurostar.com/sites/default/files/pdf/timetable/UK_timetable.pdf

Margate is an area that indeed the government want to regenerate, and fortunately it already has 140mph trains. How will your desperately slow service compete with connections via London into SE High Speed? The only advantage I can see is the benefit of a direct train, but remember the fastest journeys are usually prioritised in journey planners and you’re relying on that small minority of travellers who want to spend a significantly longer time on a train rather than connect.

Margate is a small and rather unlovely seaside town in Kent and I cannot see anyone wanting to spend a very long time on your train (which runs for a long distance well outside the XC operational area and which would pose tremendous logistical reliability and recovery problems) to get there.

 

[PR1Berske]

Away from recent posts from Margate's Tourist Board, I would like to see more Welsh services from Lime Street, if the new Welsh franchise is ever able to resolve how to deal with cross-border trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Liverpool is already due to get:
- Leeds via Manchester Victoria and the Calder Valley
- Chester via the Halton Curve, but extensions into Wales are not confirmed
- Glasgow via Preston (3tpd), and Edinburgh via York (hourly)
- 2tph to Manchester Airport (one via Warrington, and one (stopper) via Newton le Willows, extended to Crewe)
- Blackpool services restored (EMU)

More London services will come if WCP gets more stock in the 2019 franchise, and certainly with HS2.
Liverpool might lose through services to Norwich (beyond Nottingham) in the EMT rebid.
DfT won't be interested in XC services to Liverpool if WMR ("LNW") continues to run 2tph from Birmingham. No XC services are "lucrative".
There's scope for a Liverpool-Lancaster type EMU service in the "Glasgow" gaps, making 2tph to Preston and beyond.
The new W&B franchise might reinstate Cardiff-Liverpool via Crewe or Chester. A service to Bristol wouldn't go amiss.

 

[daodao]

I reckon there will be a Arriva service from Liv. Lime Street to Wrexham General (via chester & Halton Curve (after work redoing Halton Curve has been completed)).

I would expect such a service to be run by the new W&B franchisee, not Northern, so it won't be Arriva.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Very difficult indeed, there being no station in Bury

On a serious note, through services to Rochdale could theoretically run as extensions of the current Victoria services. But I'm not sure what the point would be and doubt there's capacity West of Manchester to do it.

To get from Lime Street to Bolton direct would be even more of a pain in the backside, reversing at Wigan NW and crossing the WCML. It would mess with the soon to be upgraded Wigan - Manchester timetable too.

Can't see it happening myself, especially since its not a franchise commitment.

it maybe be done piecemeal , The Bury - Rochdale section is almost there (albeit part ELR), Liverpool - Bolton is in place (albeit with a change at Kirkby and starting from Central) all that is missing is the Bury - Bolton stretch. Only thing is that would most likely be done as an extension to metrolink.

 

[deltic]

Liverpool to Bristol TM via Shrewsbury to complement the Manchester to Cardiff service

 

[6Gman]

Not Crayonista at all, XC did used to serve the South East, and CrossCountry as a company being acknowledged by the people of Liverpool can mean their greater network is more noticed.

Some of us even travelled on through trains from the WCML to Kent.

Slow, lightly loaded ... and slow!

 

[6Gman]

It would provide a link between the north west and the eastern part of the West Midlands, Liverpool seems to be good for nights out etc., Ashford is a great way to connect to the Eurostar, whilst avoiding the dazzles of central London, and Margate is an area that the government is keem to re-generate.

A ten minute walk down the Euston Road is hardly "the dazzles of central Lonodon".

Whatever "dazzles" are ...

 

[Ianno87]

Very difficult indeed, there being no station in Bury

On a serious note, through services to Rochdale could theoretically run as extensions of the current Victoria services. But I'm not sure what the point would be and doubt there's capacity West of Manchester to do it.

To get from Lime Street to Bolton direct would be even more of a pain in the backside, reversing at Wigan NW and crossing the WCML. It would mess with the soon to be upgraded Wigan - Manchester timetable too.

Can't see it happening myself, especially since its not a franchise commitment.

Used to be through Manchester-Bolton-Wigan-St Helens peak services but they bit the dust in 2004 (evening peak) and 2008 (morning peak), precisely because crossimg the WCML became such a constraint with uplifted services.

A good start would be diverting Wigan terminating services from Wallgate into North Western (Platforms 1-3), which I think was the idea anyway should Lostock-Wigan see wires.

Alternatively, upping the Kirkby service to 2tph and swapping it to the Bolton route gives a good fast 1 change route from Bolton to Liverpool via Merseyrail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just think, the ideal rolling stock for such a Liverpool-Kent service is readily available - a class 319...
It would of course have to be sent slow line up the WCML.

 

[MG11]

Ashford is not a great way to connect to the Eurostar, as a glance at the timetable suggests. https://www.eurostar.com/sites/default/files/pdf/timetable/UK_timetable.pdf

Margate is an area that indeed the

Margate is a small and rather unlovely seaside town in Kent and I cannot see anyone wanting to spend a very long time on your train (which runs for a long distance well outside the XC operational area and which would pose tremendous logistical reliability and recovery problems) to get there.

Hey, I did say that XC don't have the resources for it! It's more about getting Liverpool on the XC network, Liverpool has a few tourist attractions and is an interchange for those going to the Wirrall. But where would services run from? Well Scotland already has good links to North West England, the South West is already well linked, as are the west and east Midlands, so that just leaves the South East (Margate, etc)

 

[STKKK46]

I’m not overly sure XC care that much about Liverpool. They’ve dropped it before and it is served quite adequately towards Birmingham and London.

You’ve acknowledged that they are very much pushed to their limits but it would take one hell of a lot of work to make a Liverpool to Margate service viable. I’m not sure about Nuneaton to Ashford/Canterbury/Ramsgate/Margate passenger flows, but I’m going to hazard a guess that the numbers don’t stack up.

 

[6Gman]

Hey, I did say that XC don't have the resources for it! It's more about getting Liverpool on the XC network, Liverpool has a few tourist attractions and is an interchange for those going to the Wirrall. But where would services run from? Well Scotland already has good links to North West England, the South West is already well linked, as are the west and east Midlands, so that just leaves the South East (Margate, etc)

How many places in the North West are "already well linked" to the South West?

 

[Nean]

How many places in the North West are "already well linked" to the South West?

Pretty much just the XC routes from Manchester through to the south coast for 0 changes, if you allow 1 change that goes up to at least the LM Liverpool-Birmingham services and the VTWC Services via New Street.

 

[fowler9]

I would love to see Liverpool back on the cross country network as opposed to being linked in to it by London Midland but the present situation is not too bad. I would rather see less 350/2s but hey ho. I can't see any need to have a direct link to Eurostar at Ashford since if you can reach Lime Street you can probably easily reach JLA and get a much cheaper and quicker flight.

 

[MG11]

How many places in the North West are "already well linked" to the South West?

Manchester & Stockport have frequent services to Bournemouth as well as some direct services to Bristol/Penzance. If we are talking about South West Britain and not just England, then you could include the services from Manchester to Cardiff & Milford Haven.

 

[Holly]

An overnight train to Gatwick (and Brighton), leaving Liverpool around 11pm, arriving at Gatwick Airport early in the morning would attract more customers. Return train leaving Gatwick in the early afternoon.
Not sure what stops would be best, fine tune that as demand is discovered.

 

[yorkie]

An overnight train to Gatwick (and Brighton), leaving Liverpool around 11pm, arriving at Gatwick Airport early in the morning would attract more customers. Return train leaving Gatwick in the early afternoon.
Not sure what stops would be best, fine tune that as demand is discovered.

Extremely unlikely to happen.

 

[MG11]

An overnight train to Gatwick (and Brighton), leaving Liverpool around 11pm, arriving at Gatwick Airport early in the morning would attract more customers. Return train leaving Gatwick in the early afternoon.
Not sure what stops would be best, fine tune that as demand is discovered.

So that would be routed via Bletchley, Bedford and then on the Thameslink route from St Pancras??

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I’m not overly sure XC care that much about Liverpool. They’ve dropped it before and it is served quite adequately towards Birmingham and London.

XC are not supposed to "care" about Liverpool, they operate the services the DfT tells them to.
The "DfT" (Opraf/SRA at the time) decided to cut Liverpool (and Blackpool, Portsmouth and other places) from the XC network, so that the "core" service was more efficient/reliable.
Things like the West Coast upgrade and Birmingham New St congestion played a part in this.
With no new stock since the Voyagers, the XC situation is unchanged today.
Arguably the 2tph electric Liverpool-Birmingham is better than anything XC would have offered.

Cutting north-west/south-west trains other than Manchester-Bristol was another SRA decision, with Scotland-Preston-Birmingham going to VTWC.
Liverpool also lost the occasional Marches route service to Cardiff, with all W&B trains sent to Manchester.
Ultimately, the reason was the horrendous losses on the XC network.
We'll have to see what gets proposed in the 2019 re-franchising, now that XC seems to have reached break-even.

 

[Holly]

An overnight train to Gatwick (and Brighton), leaving Liverpool around 11pm, arriving at Gatwick Airport early in the morning would attract more customers. Return...

Extremely unlikely to happen.

Yes probably, but lots of people in the NorthWest would catch a morning flight out of Gatwick if it were convenient to reach in that way.
Maybe stop at Crewe, Birmingham, London (Kensington?) along the way.