Future plans in Wales

[Greybeard33]

Looking at the workings at Stockport tomorrow: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SPT/2016/01/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It seems all operators who usually serve Stockport are providing replacement buses/coaches with two exceptions: ATW and TPE.

Why ATW aren't stopping their diverted North Wales to Manchester services at Stockport when their South Wales to Manchester services aren't able to call at Stockport is strange. It could put their own customers off travelling - someone going from North Wales to Stockport might not be too happy about the train taking a longer route via Stockport and then having to go back to Stockport on another train when there's a reduced frequency service.

As it turned out, the South Wales to Manchester services were cut back to Crewe today because of the overtime ban. The ATW website told passengers for Wilmslow, Stockport and Manchester to use Virgin or Northern services from Crewe - the latter being buses! However, since the S Wales services were stopping at Chester, a better option in some cases might have been to change there to the ATW Chester to Manchester via Northwich shuttle. But it would have been particularly galling for a Stockport-bound passenger from S Wales to go through Stockport without stopping, and then have to get the Northern shuttle back from Piccadilly!

 

[TDK]

Every 2 hours it ran to Holyhead all stops. This made more sense than the current arrangement running from Brum via Wrexham. One of the Manchester-South Wales services used to be booked as a 158 initially, freeing up a 175 for the shuttle. A bit off topic, but it's not a good situation when the dynamic brake has to be isolated in order to prevent the gearbox overheating on these units. Are the 175 disc brakes coping well with regular braking from 90/100 mph running?

175's braking curve with just the friction brake is no different from the hydrodynamic however since vented discs have been fitted they are not as good below 30mph than they used to be but still well within the parameters required.

 

[krus_aragon]

The Welsh Government's public consultation on the future franchise is open. The consultation document and response form are found here, and the consultation ends on March 18th.

 

[Philip]

175's braking curve with just the friction brake is no different from the hydrodynamic however since vented discs have been fitted they are not as good below 30mph than they used to be but still well within the parameters required.

Is the HD brake still isolated on all the units? Is it likely to remain that way?

 

[northwichcat]

The Welsh Government's public consultation on the future franchise is open. The consultation document and response form are found here, and the consultation ends on March 18th.

At a quick glance nothing special in there, most of it's what would be consulted on for any franchise renewal. The only perhaps surprising thing is they mention the possibility of serving more destinations in England when DfT have been hinting at removing English services/sections from the franchise if it's devolved. Although, I suppose both could happen e.g. new Liverpool services but Shrewsbury-Crewe services to LM.

 

[Rhydgaled]

This would probably mess up the 30min-ish interval between the Manchester and the Birmingham/Cardiff trains west of Chester.

It might well do that, but I think the North Wales coast line timetable needs a recast anyway. For example I don't think the current hourly frequency of through trains between Wrexham and Holyhead should continue, it should be 3 each way per day (CDF-Holyhead expresses) with most trains from Holyhead going to Liverpool/Manchester/Crewe* instead of Cardiff/Birmingham**. The Birmingham-Wrexham trains should terminate at Wrexham or Chester, to cut down on using ETCS-equiped 158s away from the Cambrian.

Another question with north Wales is what to do with the Euston services, they currently depart Holyhead at around xx:55 and arrive at around xx:59, so would have to sit in Holyhead for an hour if you turned them into a regular 2-hourly service. I don't suppose the path in one direction could be moved at all? Perhaps stock utilisation could be improved by giving responsiblity for Holyhead-Birmingham trains to the ICWC franchise?

* Ideally continuing to Birmingham
** via Wrexham

In the future there will be four through platforms at Piccadilly. I'm not sure if the Mayfield Loop where the train reverses today will still exist, and if it does the tracks the train has to cross to return from the platform to the loop will be that much more busy. Ideally there would be a centre reversing siding between the Up and Down pairs of tracks, but there probably isn't space for it.

Good point, I didn't think that the 4 platform work might kill off the Mayfield loop. Would the service be able to take one of the short layover options (eg. ATW (from Wales) arrive MAN xx:55 depart (to Wales) xx:20) if it ran to Victoria instead of MAN?
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DfT instructed Northern bidders to leave a path for ATW to run a service from North Wales in to Victoria or to run to the Airport, terminating at Piccadilly wasn't an option given.

For what reason / was it confirmed that the Mayfield loop is going to be removed?

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester-Crewe fast is about 35 minutes and Crewe-Chester is 20-25 minutes so with a 5 minute layover at Crewe you're looking at a similar journey time to the exisiting service via Warrington, if a bit faster if it goes non-stop to Crewe.

If the current Chester-Crewe path is used, it would arrive at Crewe at xx:18, it would be xx:28 before the same unit could cross the lines to get to Manchester (due to the timings of VT and LM services) and that would mean the Cardiff-Manchester service would lose it's path between Crewe and Manchester.

So it would be something like

Chester 09:55
Crewe a 10:18
Crewe d 10:28
Stockport 10:59
Manchester a 11:15

Even slower if it goes via the Airport.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not sure if that is well known at all, initially I think it will be a service Liverpool -Lpool Parkway- Runcorn - Frodsham - Helsby - Chester, possibly an extension of what is currently the Preston to Lpool Parkway.

However it is the North Wales Politicians who have pushed for a direct link to Liverpool so Llandudno / Holyhead is very likely for the next W&B franchise.

Thanks for the reply. Did any of the north Wales politicians that called for it represent Wrexham, or is ALL the demand for a Liverpool service coming from further west in north Wales?

The Wrexham to Chester route is single track and has the both the Holyhead-Cardiff and Llandudno - Birmingham service running over it. in each direction so I think Liverpool to Wrexham and on to Cardiff via the Halton Curve is a long way off.

Please note:

I don't think the current hourly frequency of through trains between Wrexham and Holyhead should continue, it should be 3 each way per day (CDF-Holyhead expresses) with most trains from Holyhead going to Liverpool/Manchester/Crewe* instead of Cardiff/Birmingham**. The Birmingham-Wrexham trains should terminate at Wrexham or Chester, to cut down on using ETCS-equiped 158s away from the Cambrian.

So if there was a Liverpool-Wrexham-Cardiff service, it would replace the Cardiff-Holyhead, so wouldn't be a problem for the single line (although the Birmingham-Wrexham would probably have to be just that and not Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester, unless Liverpool-Cardiff was only two-hourly).

I'm just trying to gather information to inform what services I suggest to the current Wales & Borders franchise consultation, I've read enough on this forum to know that N.Wales-Cardiff is a small market compared to N.Wales - Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe, but I'm not sure what's the best way of aiming for those more-important markets.

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks for the reply. Did any of the north Wales politicians that called for it represent Wrexham, or is ALL the demand for a Liverpool service coming from further west in north Wales?

Please note:

So if there was a Liverpool-Wrexham-Cardiff service, it would replace the Cardiff-Holyhead, so wouldn't be a problem for the single line (although the Birmingham-Wrexham would probably have to be just that and not Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester, unless Liverpool-Cardiff was only two-hourly).

Any of this could just be pie in the sky at the moment and I feel is difficult to discuss in view of how the new franchises will be drawn up when ATW Franchise expires.

 

[notlob.divad]

Thanks for the reply. Did any of the north Wales politicians that called for it represent Wrexham, or is ALL the demand for a Liverpool service coming from further west in north Wales?

I don't know, to be honest. I think Wrexham would like a link to Liverpool but previous pushes have been for the Bidston line to be incorporated into Merseyrail.

Please note:

So if there was a Liverpool-Wrexham-Cardiff service, it would replace the Cardiff-Holyhead, so wouldn't be a problem for the single line (although the Birmingham-Wrexham would probably have to be just that and not Birmingham-Wrexham-Chester, unless Liverpool-Cardiff was only two-hourly).

I'm just trying to gather information to inform what services I suggest to the current Wales & Borders franchise consultation, I've read enough on this forum to know that N.Wales-Cardiff is a small market compared to N.Wales - Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe, but I'm not sure what's the best way of aiming for those more-important markets.

This might be the best for actual rail users, but I can't imagine the politics of cutting the only remaining North-South Wales route, even if it takes over 4 hours end to end.

If there is a split of the N-S Wales service, it reverses at Chester and seems to have both direction trains calling at a very similar time. The most user friendly service might be to split the service here but continue both to Manchester / Liverpool. Whether that is:
a Cardiff to Liverpool & Holyhead to Manchester,
b Cardiff to Manchester & Holyhead to Liverpool
c both on an alternating hour basis.
Either way I think 'nice' connections at Chester would be key to selling it politically.

How this ties in with other services I don't know. eg Manchester already has Llandudno - ??? (Victoria looking at this current thread) and also already has a much faster Cardiff service via Crewe.
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I'm not sure if that is well known at all, initially I think it will be a service Liverpool -Lpool Parkway- Runcorn - Frodsham - Helsby - Chester, possibly an extension of what is currently the Preston to Lpool Parkway.

Actually, thinking about it, this is less likely as Preston (Blackpool) - Lpool Parkway will be all Electric where as Runcorn to Chester isn't being done. Northern have no bi-modes and they won't use a DMU to run the whole route just for this last section.

Best laid plans and all that.