Future plans in Wales

[PHILIPE]

ATW have 3 years to go yet. Numerous Tweets EACH and EVERY day - Not enough carriages, had to stand from here to there, get some more trains, buy some as you make enough profit. Stock answer that we only lease trains and there are none available due to National shortage. However we are hoping for some after electrification.
These tweets will be continuing on a daily basis for years. When the Franchise started in 2003, it was based on no growth.
Units are required NOW. NOW, NOW if these daily Tweets are to be avoided.
ATW will only do what the Franchise says, in other words servants of the DFT.
A case for pressing on with use of 230s ? But then, who would pay for them. ATW depend on the Welsh Government for any financing.
Even if 230s were to be introduced, I can see little use as anything released from the Valleys would only be 143s or 150s which would not solve the severe overcrowding on the Marches route.

 

[Altfish]

North Wales needs a new pattern of services linked to the West Coast franchise.
A 2-hourly through WC service from Euston would allow the W&B franchise to concentrate on the other hour and some stoppers.
It needs the WC franchise to get new EMUs to replace the Voyagers under the wires.
WC services could alternate between Bangor/Holyhead and Llandudno.
The local NE Wales transport organisation (Taith) wants the new Chester-Leeds service extended to North Wales, maybe alternately to Wrexham/Bangor.
Then there's the Liverpool opportunities via the Halton Curve, which might also alternate.
Chester needs to be wired in time to take HS2 classic-compatible services.
There should be more fast services Chester/North Wales-Birmingham (via Stafford, not via Salop).

The Cambrian/Birmingham route is stuck with 158s because of the ETCS requirement for the route west of Shrewsbury.
There won't be any other ETCS routes/stock on the W&B network before HS2.
Cambrian-Crewe (-Manchester/Liverpool) would be a useful upgrade.
Rolling-stock wise the ex-TPE 185s might make a good upgrade path for Manchester-Cardiff (which needs to be accelerated as a pseudo intercity service).
W&B also need to find an economical way to speed up some services by skip-stopping (eg Llandudno-Manchester), or adding some new stoppers.

Final request: through services North West-Marches-Bristol.
I think there is at least as much demand from Hereford and northwards for Bristol (and beyond) as for Cardiff.

It also needs direct trains to Manchester Airport - preferably via the Western Link.

 

[craigybagel]

A case for pressing on with use of 230s ? But then, who would pay for them. ATW depend on the Welsh Government for any financing.
Even if 230s were to be introduced, I can see little use as anything released from the Valleys would only be 143s or 150s which would not solve the severe overcrowding on the Marches route.

Use the 150s on a Cardiff - Hereford all stops service, then run the Manchester's nonstop between Newport and Hereford, and that's most of your overcrowding fixed in one fell swoop.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Use the 150s on a Cardiff - Hereford all stops service, then run the Manchester's nonstop between Newport and Hereford, and that's most of your overcrowding fixed in one fell swoop.

Your forgetting The overcrowding exits at the other end too seen plenty of 175's I've just got off at Salop heading north with standing passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ATW have 3 years to go yet. Numerous Tweets EACH and EVERY day - Not enough carriages, had to stand from here to there, get some more trains, buy some as you make enough profit. Stock answer that we only lease trains and there are none available due to National shortage. However we are hoping for some after electrification.
These tweets will be continuing on a daily basis for years. When the Franchise started in 2003, it was based on no growth.
Units are required NOW. NOW, NOW if these daily Tweets are to be avoided.
ATW will only do what the Franchise says, in other words servants of the DFT.
A case for pressing on with use of 230s ? But then, who would pay for them. ATW depend on the Welsh Government for any financing.
Even if 230s were to be introduced, I can see little use as anything released from the Valleys would only be 143s or 150s which would not solve the severe overcrowding on the Marches route.

As warned/predicted by many.

 

[40129]

Could the Marches line overcrowding be solved by a combination of craigybagel's Cardiff-Hereford suggestion and diverting Cambrian line services to run to/from Manchester instead of Birmingham?

In this scenario, LM would take over the existing ATW services east of Shrewsbury, including Chester - Birmingham

 

[northwichcat]

It's unlikely an additional Welsh service path between Manchester and Crewe can be found, especially considering existing services never have more than 3 carriages. If thete were some busy 6 car services, like there are on TPE, it might be a different matter.

 

[craigybagel]

Your forgetting The overcrowding exits at the other end too seen plenty of 175's I've just got off at Salop heading north with standing passengers.
.

I didn't forget, I just didn't cover that bit since its a much harder fix than the southern end, for the reasons jcollins mentioned.

It's unlikely an additional Welsh service path between Manchester and Crewe can be found, especially considering existing services never have more than 3 carriages. If thete were some busy 6 car services, like there are on TPE, it might be a different matter.

 

[anthony263]

Certainly agree on that. The Pembroke Dock branch sees perhaps the worst stock utilisation of any line in Wales with each unit sitting at the terminus for almost an hour before returning back toward Whitland. And it could probably be resolved so easily by sorting out the level crossings between Tenby and Pembroke Dock. Stil, it involves money which no one wants to stump up although looking at it simplistically I guess the money would be well spent as it would effectively release another unit.

Not just that maybe re open the passing loop that was in place between Tenby and Whitland as that would certainly help with reliability on the branch. Maybe also see about a loop between Tenby and Pemrboke.

There does need to be additional services between Tenby and Swansea particulary during the peaks or say a unit such as a 153 s doing a service from Tenby to Whitland at 0640 arriving at 0710 and connecting with a service from Milford/Fishguard which would arrive into Swansea at 0850.

Swanline needs a regular hourly service at minimum perhaps with an additional hourly shuttle between Swansea and Port Talbot to give a regular commuter service to stations such as Llansamlet. I do think once Maesteg - Cardiff goes half hourly that will certainly help with overcrowding between Bridgend and Cardiff especially with 3 carriage emu's. With new emu's likely to be ordered for other franchises can the WAG not tag an add on to the orders perhaps?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Could the Marches line overcrowding be solved by a combination of craigybagel's Cardiff-Hereford suggestion and diverting Cambrian line services to run to/from Manchester instead of Birmingham?

In this scenario, LM would take over the existing ATW services east of Shrewsbury, including Chester - Birmingham

That would dump an extra 350,000 plus interchange passengers per annum at a station that's not up to the Job amongst other things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's unlikely an additional Welsh service path between Manchester and Crewe can be found, especially considering existing services never have more than 3 carriages. If thete were some busy 6 car services, like there are on TPE, it might be a different matter.

Southbound Marches trains arrive Shrewsbury 10 to 15 minutes before the northbound ones arrive some more intensive use for Platform. 4 attaching and joining portions.

 

[Llanigraham]

Could the Marches line overcrowding be solved by a combination of craigybagel's Cardiff-Hereford suggestion and diverting Cambrian line services to run to/from Manchester instead of Birmingham?

In this scenario, LM would take over the existing ATW services east of Shrewsbury, including Chester - Birmingham

Considering that the largest majority of passengers off the Cambrian are heading to the West Mids, that would really be popular...................NOT!!!

 

[craigybagel]

It's hard to run extra Manchester-Shrewsbury services because of lack of capacity. It's also hard to make the current trains longer because of platform length issues. No easy solutions really. Or should that be, no cheap solutions really?

 

[Greenback]

Considering that the largest majority of passengers off the Cambrian are heading to the West Mids, that would really be popular...................NOT!!!

It seems to be a well established fact that the most significant patterns of demand are across Wales. There would be howls of protest at through Birmingham trains being withdrawn from the mid Wales area, just like north Wales passengers would prefer through trains to Manchester instead of the Birmingham and Cardiff services.

 

[northwichcat]

It's hard to run extra Manchester-Shrewsbury services because of lack of capacity. It's also hard to make the current trains longer because of platform length issues. No easy solutions really. Or should that be, no cheap solutions really?

What about a fast train from Manchester to Cardiff, followed by a slow train from Crewe to Carmarthen/Milford Haven then paths in to Manchester or length of platforms at smaller stations affecting the length of a long distance service would be less of an issue?

 

[craigybagel]

What about a fast train from Manchester to Cardiff, followed by a slow train from Crewe to Carmarthen/Milford Haven then paths in to Manchester or length of platforms at smaller stations affecting the length of a long distance service would be less of an issue?

It's a possibility alright, but the busiest services (the peak commuting trains) are busy because of the Nantwich and Whitchurch commuters who wouldn't appreciate having to change. But in the interests of the greater good maybe it'd be worthwhile. If it was done I'd like to see the Crewe starters starting back at Liverpool, but pathing them up the WCML might be an issue.

 

[northwichcat]

It's a possibility alright, but the busiest services (the peak commuting trains) are busy because of the Nantwich and Whitchurch commuters who wouldn't appreciate having to change. But in the interests of the greater good maybe it'd be worthwhile. If it was done I'd like to see the Crewe starters starting back at Liverpool, but pathing them up the WCML might be an issue.

Well a Cheshire & Warrington LEP aspiration is for Crewe to Nantwich to be electrified so the Crewe stoppers can be extended there, whether that happens is a different question.

 

[craigybagel]

Well a Cheshire & Warrington LEP aspiration is for Crewe to Nantwich to be electrified so the Crewe stoppers can be extended there, whether that happens is a different question.

If they did the Nantwich passengers would get off at Crewe and get on the next fast service!

In any case, good look pathing even more services through platforms 5 and 6 and across all the tracks.

 

[northwichcat]

If they did the Nantwich passengers would get off at Crewe and get on the next fast service!

Presumably that's more to connect towns within Cheshire e.g. being able to get from Holmes Chapel to Nantwich without a lengthy connection in Crewe and if the Airport service gets extended than to give more towns a direct Airport link.

 

[Solaris]

That is very southern based - we do have a Welsh railway in the North in case you hadn't noticed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Have the WG not got a different plan for the Valley Lines?

They appear to....
http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

 

[The Ham]

There's two sides of the coin with the Valleys electrification; good side is that it will allow the withdrawal of the Pacers and allow Sprinters to be cascaded and potential capacity increases, as well as reduced journey times. Downside of course is the cost and the fact that would new EMUs be used - could simply be cast offs from London (e,g 315s) that need refurbishing and are not much different to the previous incarnations running on the line.

Isn't there also the possibility of Northern EMU cast offs?

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't there also the possibility of Northern EMU cast offs?

They'll be a whole load of 319s from Thameslink left over after Arriva's requirements for the Northern franchise are met, as well as possibly being some 319s which Northern will only temporarily take on and the 321s and 322s they are set to release.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They'll be a whole load of 319s from Thameslink left over after Arriva's requirements for the Northern franchise are met, as well as possibly being some 319s which Northern will only temporarily take on and the 321s and 322s they are set to release.

Welsh Valleys needs 23m EMUs if the platform extension plans are proceeded with unchanged. Class 323 style units are what's being planned for at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

Welsh Valleys needs 23m EMUs if the platform extension plans are proceeded with unchanged. Class 323 style units are what's being planned for at the moment.

Well there aren't any EMUs like the 323s in terms of long wide carriages and 3 car formations (giving a 70.2m total length), it'll be 323s, new build or 4 car EMUs with a carriage removed/wasted and honestly I can't see any of those being viable options for Valley Lines considering Porterbrook wants all the 323s to go to one operator and they'll be too many for Valley Lines.

 

[anthony263]

Well How many class 323's are there in total as you will no doubt need some for the valley lines as well as some for the other electrified routes in south wales:

An hourly Cardiff - Swansea swanline service would require 4 units at least maybe more if the service is further enhanced. Something like the class 377/3's would be ideal

 

[6Gman]

Well a Cheshire & Warrington LEP aspiration is for Crewe to Nantwich to be electrified so the Crewe stoppers can be extended there, whether that happens is a different question.

There really are no words to describe that idea!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Well there aren't any EMUs like the 323s in terms of long wide carriages and 3 car formations (giving a 70.2m total length), it'll be 323s, new build or 4 car EMUs with a carriage removed/wasted and honestly I can't see any of those being viable options for Valley Lines considering Porterbrook wants all the 323s to go to one operator and they'll be too many for Valley Lines.

New build is inevitable for South Wales given the platform extensions/lengths are being based around a 6 x 23m train formation on all but Coryton and Cardiff Bay, which will be 4 x 23m capable.

I'd put a shilling on Bombardier with a Class 345 type unit (maybe with three sets of doors) in 6 car fixed formation, with SDO for Cardiff Bay and Coryton, can't quite see a 3 car unit making much sense on the routes served by the electrification target completion date, too much wasted space though it does allow for coupling and splitting to continue at Pontypridd.

 

[northwichcat]

There really are no words to describe that idea!

It was suggested by a certain large build councillor who is currently leader of Cheshire East council and only cares about South Cheshire (he also wants tram-trains in Crewe.) He'll be standing down as leader next month and in the past week it's been revealed he'll be facing a Police investigation over a breach of tendering procedures and awarding contracts to his 'friends.'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

New build is inevitable for South Wales given the platform extensions/lengths are being based around a 6 x 23m train formation on all but Coryton and Cardiff Bay, which will be 4 x 23m capable.

I'd put a shilling on Bombardier with a Class 345 type unit (maybe with three sets of doors) in 6 car fixed formation, with SDO for Cardiff Bay and Coryton, can't quite see a 3 car unit making much sense on the routes served by the electrification target completion date, too much wasted space though it does allow for coupling and splitting to continue at Pontypridd.

Some points worth considering:
1. Are they planning to use 6 x 23m or future proofing to allow 6 x 23m in the future?
2. A 7 car 31x formation would be sightly shorter than a 6 x 23m formation so a suitable length formation could be formed using old carriages.
3. TPE electrification was originally based on using equivalents to the 380s on North TPE. Now we know they'll be 5 car bi-mode trains ordered.
4. The 345s will have 22m carriages* so they'll be slightly more than 1m shorter than 323 carriages.

* Based on dividing the total length by number of carriages so that doesn't allow for the driving cars being a different length to the centre cars.

 

[PHILIPE]

Cardiff City Line platforms can only accomodate 2x20 trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Well How many class 323's are there in total as you will no doubt need some for the valley lines as well as some for the other electrified routes in south wales:

There's 43 units in total and they have around 280 seats (more than double what a Pacer has) meaning 8 x 323s would provide more seats than every ATW Pacer put together and 26 x 323s replacing all the ATW 142s, 143s and 150s wouldn't be an overall capacity decrease.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's 43 units in total and they have around 280 seats (more than double what a Pacer has) meaning 8 x 323s would provide more seats than every ATW Pacer put together and 26 x 323s replacing all the ATW 142s, 143s and 150s wouldn't be an overall capacity decrease.

26 wouldn't cover all the diagrams though......the business case on the WG website based on cascaded 313/315's says nearly 40 units are needed.

 

[anthony263]

26 wouldn't cover all the diagrams though......the business case on the WG website based on cascaded 313/315's says nearly 40 units are needed.

Would exactly be surprised especially f the WAG are planning on reopening other routes such as the line to Beddau etc. in addition to new and additional services